Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[melodramocracy]

Playerbase: normals are too hard, we don't want a second job, and you're losing subs because of it
Blizzard: look! Lfr!
Playerbase: that's too easy! it's not real raiding, we're insulted that you've relegated us to easy mode
Blizzard: ok, we'll nerf normals a bit

(one month passes by)

Playerbase: heroics are too hard, we don't want a second job, and you're losing subs because of it
Blizzard: but you have lfr and norma...
Playerbase: THEY'RE BOTH TOO EASY, STOP INSULTING US WITH SCRUB CONTENT
Blizzard:.....
...

..

ok, we're going to make a card game.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 12:53 PM ----------

This argument has been made and debunked repeatedly on these forums. Go back and read before repeating this fallacy.

It has? Where?

[Osmeric]

Playerbase:

Wow, the playerbase is a giant hive mind that speaks in unison. I'm enlightened now.

[Saiyoran]

Please stop calling for nerfs. If you have a set group of raiders with DBM, you can clear Normal ToT in a few weeks, at least in 10 man (especially with the Horridon/Council/Megaera nerfs). 25 man requires considerably more coordination but with the exception of Qon healing p1 and Megaera healing (if you're under geared/don't have the dps to push the breaths before 4), and Lei Shen p2 dps check (at least my guild's strategy), the raid is still not too difficult. This is coming from a guy who has no heroic experience yet in t15 (aside from an hour of H Jinrokh). The raids aren't that difficult, it doesn't take much to read a few pages on your class and watch a ten minute video explaining the fights.

[shise]

it is indeed pointlessly overtuned for a normal mode raid.

I don't think it's the main reason for the guild break ups though. Main one I am having right now can be summed up as "summer is coming."

Normal mode is really easy. I mean, seriously it is. Just be sure to have hte proper gear (which you most cetainly do) and follow the tactics... it's plain easy and simple.

[Osmeric]

Normal mode is really easy. I mean, seriously it is. Just be sure to have hte proper gear (which you most cetainly do) and follow the tactics... it's plain easy and simple.

That's why so many people have completed it -- because it's so easy!

Oh wait.

[pallyopness]

This argument has been made and debunked repeatedly on these forums. Go back and read before repeating this fallacy.

LOL? debunked? it's an opinion...you cannot debunk an opinion, sorry sir...let me rephrase my prior post for you....IMHO if regular difficulty is too challenging than its better you raid content that is more suitable. LFR is the easier of the 2 choices, you should stay there instead of complaining and ruining the gaming for a massive amount of players by nerfing everything.

[MoanaLisa]

ToT normal is simple to hard and to say otherwise is ignorant. All that needs to be done with raiding is encaspulated in my signature.

This is an opinion. It's an opinion that may be shared by many but it's still an opinion. Do not make the mistake of thinking that anyone that disagrees with your opinion is 'ignorant'. The same for those that may want to reach for the word 'retarded'. Don't go there.

[Glorious Leader]

Please stop saying it's easy. Get your heads out of your asses and understand that not everyone is you. THE ACHIEVEMENT FOR DEFEATING THE RAID ON NORMAL IS CALLED AHEAD OF THE CURVE:LEI SHEN. How in gods fucking name can it be tuned for normal raiders? Even the developers do not agree with that...

[Saiyoran]

That's why so many people have completed it -- because it's so easy!

Oh wait.

Just because people aren't doing it doesn't mean its hard. Raiding is not a large portion of the playerbase, and many guilds are still doing T14 Heroics to gear up for Horridon and beyond. The speed at which Blizzard released T14 and T15 meant that not everyone would finish T14 in time for T15 (which is in no way bad, because T14 is still there....), and I know there are a pretty decent number of guilds on my server at least that clear 1/12 ToT and immediately hop back into H HoF or H Terrace.

[Glorious Leader]

This is an opinion. It's an opinion that may be shared by many but it's still an opinion. Do not make the mistake of thinking that anyone that disagrees with your opinion is 'ignorant'. The same for those that may want to reach for the word 'retarded'. Don't go there.

It is the most correct opinion one can have on the matter. So correct that it is virtually indistinguishable from fact. Ignorance on the part of the vocal minority will not changed this.

[pallyopness]

there are over 10,000 guilds who have completed at least 6/12 regular........that is at MINIMUM 100,000 players.......thats not even including 25 mans into the equation which raises it much higher....also 10,000 is my base number for using...a guild on my server is ranked 10,686 at 6/12 regular.......that is a lot of people capable of doing more than 2 bosses....sorry

[Chrispotter]

That's why so many people have completed it -- because it's so easy!

Oh wait.

6474 Guilds have killed Lei Shen Normal. Even if all of them were only 10 mans, thats still 64740 people that have completed it. Then Take into consideration about 30% of those guilds are 25 man. Yeh.... Many people HAVE completed it on normal, because it IS so easy. Also then consider that alot of these are probably 14 year olds playing only 1 night a week. Yeehhhh

Okay 30% is a large exageration, but still you get my point.
800 25 mans = 20,000 Players, excluding players who have been swapped in after the first kill is made, the real number is more likely to be around 25000 for 25 man players.
5677 10 mans = 66,770 players, excluding players who have been swapping in after the first kill is made, the real number is more likely to be around 68,000 for 10 man players.

I guess approx 93 Thousand players killing it isnt enough for you.

[Novx]

Most fights on normal have like 1 mechanic that will wipe the raid...If you can't properly manage 1 ability I am glad your guild is falling apart because that is just sad. (Ex: Kicking Turtles on Tortos, Durumu Maze, Ionization on H-Jinrohk)....They aren't exactly overly complicated abilities.

[Saiyoran]

I agree.

And to that poster I would say, try running it again with only low 500 gear...it's still quite challenging

My guild cleared 6/12 with 8 of 10 people under 500 ilvl in the first two weeks it was out. It's coordination that's stopping people, not gear. In 25 man, our average ilvl was 502 when we killed Megaera the first time. I will give you that Primordius, Qon, and Lei Shen do require a bit of gear, but 9 of the 12 bosses are coordination and mechanics checks with relatively easy enrage timers.

[Glorious Leader]

6474 Guilds have killed Lei Shen Normal. Even if all of them were only 10 mans, thats still 64740 people that have completed it. Then Take into consideration about 30% of those guilds are 25 man. Yeh.... Many people HAVE completed it on normal, because it IS so easy. Also then consider that alot of these are probably 14 year olds playing only 1 night a week. Yeehhhh

Calling 64740 people many out of potential millions is a joke. Relative to even the previous tier it's a joke. NORMAL IS TO FUCKING OVERTUNED AND HARD. Get it through your heads people.

[Alvito]

I think to blame entirely the difficultly of Throne of Thunder as a reason for guild breakups isn't quite right, but I think it is part of the calculation.

Combined with the disappointing Legendary Series, Daily Quests, Reputation Gating, and many other issues, are some of the reasons I left. Throne of Thunder is a good difficulty level I think, but combined with the rest of the expansion, it might be a little too much.

The design issues of MoP seemed to speed up burn out for a lot of people. Sure they have fixed a lot of it but the damage was already done for many people. Having such a long quest chain, that for many was lack luster but still needed for alt, mixed in with the way they gated and tied in rep and valor and people end up playing alts less then they would have. Without that they burn out on their main and stop playing.

Many of the raid fights do seem to be overloaded with mechanics and extra action button usage. For me this was at its worst in HoF were it felt like you just had a lot of busy work for the sake of having it. When you keep dumping that on people they get tired of it. Blizzard seems to be all over the place with some design and running with the idea that we need more and more animation and a flooding of abilities. You end up with this feeling you are at a bad 80s glam rock show with the band lip syncing, while things explode and light up everywhere.

[Deleted]

Eh.. no. I'm sure some guilds break up because they can't faceroll everything but I was enjoying the tier. The reason my guild fell apart is that we lost 3 raiders out of our 10 close friends to IRL shit and on a dead realm, finding players who can replace them is a bit impossible.

[pallyopness]

you are ASSUMING the entire wow playerbase raids....thats not exactly an accurate assessment....this is whats wrong, you are getting severely angry because you dont have the skill required to raid normal and blame blizzard....sorry

[Trickname]

So sorry if I got this wrong but since the end of TBC people have whined that content is way too easy (even though i'm sure most of those complaining never actually set foot in a heroic mode). And now Blizzard made them harder they are too hard?

Reminds me of the opening Cata 5 mans.

Anyway i'm sure iv'e misunderstood this if normal mode is being classified too hard? or is it that the mechanics are just becoming overly complex?

[melodramocracy]

It is the most correct opinion one can have on the matter. So correct that it is virtually indistinguishable from fact. Ignorance on the part of the vocal minority will not changed this.

The best part of this comment is that you probably don't even realize who the vocal minority is on this particular subject.