How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Ragedaug]

So instead of improving and becoming a better player that will benefit the person every single tier, it is better to nerf content so they dont have to improve. Instead of fixing their ui, rotation, gems,reforge, so you arent playing horribly, we just nerf it instead. Why learn and get better? Why face the challenge and down it without nerfs when you can just hope for nerfs and keep playing badly? Before Nerfs, people just had to become better players, crazy huh?

Nah, there is no need to nerf the content. Just create content that is on the level of being a challenge to that group to begin with.

[isadorr]

Nah, there is no need to nerf the content. Just create content that is on the level of being a challenge to that group to begin with.

Which would be essentially nerfed content playing down to a level instead of the player coming up to meet the challenge. The same exact thing. No reason to get better because bosses are being downed as the content isnt nerfed but faceroll, same result as a nerf.

[BirdLady68]

Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul) is what I voted for BUT maybe they should implement a feature that makes the fight harder then LFR but more forgiving then a normal mode that will look at Guild tags? 8 or more Not in the same guild (ie a pug) for a 10 man will activate the nerf but rewards gear that has an item level slightly lower then Normal 10 man.

[Ragedaug]

Lightbringer, Eternal Reign we run a pug every single week as do a lot of raiding progression servers. I dont know what your server looks like but raiding servers have been doing this for a while. Alts out of our guild and pugs on the server, and we full clear in one night.

I cant link the bad because they are just pugs that get in each week, different players on the server that make arrangements to come along.

I'm not saying you and a pick up group of players who have already cleared ToT and learned the fights while playing with their guilds haven't gotten together and cleared it. What I think would be funny is to see the response of the ones you pick out in vent to call "bad".

On top of that, less then 100,000 players have even cleared ToT normal, so now to not be bad you have to be in the top portion of the top 1%? How skewed does your perception of reality have to be to say someone who is better then 99% of 8 million people is still bad.

Oh yeah, and I'm completely not surprised that you couldn't find a single bad that is full clearing ToT every week that you could link.

[isadorr]

The idea is to put up challenges that make a guild better and results in better players. It worked for a long time but people refuse to become better players because they are used to sucking the tit of the blizzard content nerfs. Why get better?Nerfs will come soon enough, i want to play this way ..durrr.

These threads happen every tier as players THINK they are good raiders because they are being carried by the 30% nerfs, then the next tier hits and they have no nerf to carry them, so the crying begins. Last tier T14 was too hard, now t15 is too hard.

Here is a fact: every person that was having trouble in normals and linked their logs, the problems were right there, people doing half of the dps they should be doing. Heals that were standing in fire or healing badly. It isnt the difficulty, it is the player base that is pouting not wanting to have to learn, which is sad since this game is about learning things from raiding, how to down a boss, becoming better to down something that was seeminly impossible.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:33 AM ----------

I'm not saying you and a pick up group of players who have already cleared ToT and learned the fights while playing with their guilds haven't gotten together and cleared it. What I think would be funny is to see the response of the ones you pick out in vent to call "bad".

On top of that, less then 100,000 players have even cleared ToT normal, so now to not be bad you have to be in the top portion of the top 1%? How skewed does your perception of reality have to be to say someone who is better then 99% of 8 million people is still bad.

Oh yeah, and I'm completely not surprised that you couldn't find a single bad that is full clearing ToT every week that you could link.

Because i am not friends with these people, they are PUG's, random people off the server. I have no reason to keep track of them or their names lol. Not everyone raids, so you are skewing the numbers right off the bat.

Some guilds realize they arent a raiding guild and dont try any harder than they have to and they are ok with that because they are just some friends hanging out. These people understand how raiding works and are cool with that. Others of course want what everyone has but without putting the effort in, sad.

[Ragedaug]

Some guilds realize they arent a raiding guild and dont try any harder than they have to and they are ok with that because they are just some friends hanging out. These people understand how raiding works and are cool with that. Others of course want what everyone has but without putting the effort in, sad.

In my experience, guilds without common goals are the ones that are breaking down first. I had several friends that were only logging on to help their friends clear content. When content was no longer clearable, those players stopped logging on. Granted that's just my experience, but all the friends on my list who were main stays, players who have been subbing since Vanilla who left, all left because there was no more team to log on to help.

[isadorr]

In my experience, players without common goals are the ones that are breaking down first. I had several friends that were only logging on to help their friends clear content. When content was no longer clearable, those players stopped logging on. Granted that's just my experience, but all the friends on my list who were main stays, players who have been subbing since Vanilla who left, all left because there was no more team to log on to help.

People from vanilla knew about attunements(which i miss) and content that wasnt ever nerfed. Being stuck on a fight, raiding 5 days a week trying to down a boss. Why wouldnt they quit if They have the common sense to see someone who is bad and isnt willing to get better, maybe they stopped logging in because the playerbase of the raid group was horrible. It sounds like a variation of that, people used to being carried but have gotten so horrible that people cant carry them any longer. The answer is nerfing content for the lazy people who wont get better.

People say i am pressed for time but you check their armory, pet battles, farming old content, mounts, leveling alts but dont have time to at least master the basics of their class/spec. Raiding isnt a priority for them so why should content be made just for people who dont want to get better and who dont put the effort out?

[thigan]

Seriously. I get tired of this "increasing complexity" shit. ...
Lei-Shen N was a complete joke in comparison to other end bosses like Nefarian 10N, Cho'Gall 10N, LK10N, Yogg'Saron 10N.

Fights are, in fact more complex (if the color of the font isnt clear, click me, Im a link), that is something that is very hard to argue against unless you want to be stubborn, but that doesn't mean that they are harder, we can argue that: because of this complexity there are less people that can't handle the fight. However that by itself doesn't mean harder, in the end if we define harder by the ratio between attempts and success (pretty sure this is what Blizzard uses) or the total amount of people that kill them or the amount of wipes that you or me take to kill each encounter we are in a subjective area, So if I say this are harder and you say that they are not we cannot reach a satisfactory conclusion.

Just for fun I wanted to check how big this "minority" of hardcore raiders is.
I count 25 man guilds as 2.5 guilds because they get 250% more players.
Will present numbers as say 10 (2/5) means 10 'guilds', two 25 man and five 10 mans.
Checking on my realm:

Guilds above 10/13HC: 13 (4/3)
Guilds between 6/13 and 9/13HC: 7 (2/2)
Guilds between 12/12N and 5/13HC: 45.5 (3/38)
Guilds between 6/12N and 11/12N: 24.5 (1/22)
Guilds between 2/12N and 5/12N: 22 (0/22)
Guilds at 1/12N: 24 (0/24)

Guilds in heroic content: 65.5 (9/43)
Guilds in normal content: 70.5 (1/68)

What to notice here is that there are a lot of 'ghost guilds' between 1/12N and 12/12N, guilds that do not exist anymore. Just checking through those guilds the guilds that are actually still raiding in normal content is about half, around 30. One of those 'ghost guilds' is the pug my alt is running in that is 11/12N, that is not a guild, just a pug yet registers at 11/12N.
So there is probably around 60 guilds in heroic content and 30 in normal content (counting 25 mans as 2.5 guilds to compensate for the increased players)

But what we get from this? The average guild is actually between 12/12N to 5/13HC.

So sorry Leonard. I am not in the minority. A majority of the raiding guilds are clearing normals. The people not doing so are the minority.

Couple of things here:
- How do we jump from MY REALM to this is the statistical truth?
- Why those guilds that are 1/12 are not relevant? As far as I understand that is the only relevant part of the data that you present us to the discussion. I gonna repeat this like 3 times in this post: Did you listen to the interview at all?

That said, your idea of bringing tier 14 to the table in this tier15, while has its problems and doesn't help at all to the first tier of the expansion (thinking in a general way) maybe is the ideal solution from my perspective (tweeking numbers here and there), but I'm afraid the problems that it has as a solution won't make it viable from Blizzard.

Please show me a blue quote pointing out how big the gap is between LFR and normals. Go on I'll wait

How do I reach the conclusion that LFR and normals are not that far apart in difficulty? having done ToT on all difficulties. It is very obvious that the gap between LFR and normals is substantially smaller than the gap between normals and heroics.

The above is not echoed in ilvls (20 and 13), which was my point to begin with

Seems that I only used this two times: Did you listen to the interview at all?

Second your methodology to reach conclusions may be good when you are talking to yourself, but unless I have the same experience than you do, this is, I'm in the same group of people and even maybe the same role doing this raids I cannot accept that as something that we can discuss, nobody can, that is by definition your own experience.


----
The idea of this thread was, I think, to discuss the narrow view of OP of how to handle the gap that was accepted in the interview and that they recognized that are looking into ways to fix it. Like I posted I don't know how many pages ago, that doesn't mean that they are going to do anything at all, for example Blizzard hasn't addressed the decline in 25man raiding guilds, even if they recognize that it is happening and in their point of view it is bad that is happening. All the options have problems, Blizzard's job is to try to fix what can be fixed without loosing too much of what is working right now, maybe isn't worth anymore to have Family and Friends guilds on top of LFR, maybe LFR killed this kind of guilds forever in this game because there is no place for both and for Blizzard having LFR > having F&F guilds.

[Ragedaug]

People from vanilla knew about attunements(which i miss) and content that wasnt ever nerfed. Being stuck on a fight, raiding 5 days a week trying to down a boss. Why wouldnt they quit if They have the common sense to see someone who is bad and isnt willing to get better, maybe they stopped logging in because the playerbase of the raid group was horrible. It sounds like a variation of that, people used to being carried but have gotten so horrible that people cant carry them any longer. The answer is nerfing content for the lazy people who wont get better.

People say i am pressed for time but you check their armory, pet battles, farming old content, mounts, leveling alts but dont have time to at least master the basics of their class/spec. Raiding isnt a priority for them so why should content be made just for people who dont want to get better and who dont put the effort out?

My sister was a balance spec'd druid healer, quested as a balanced spec cat, and told me that gear with high armor was "great" for my hunter. She also raided Naxx 40.

Really, really bad players were able to participate and progress in the Vanilla raiding scene. They can't today and they are just quitting.

[isadorr]

Why cant players learn to get better? Family and friends can learn and get better if they want to but people who arent willing to put out any effort are in the wrong place as far as progression raiding goes. Isnt it raiding if you go in and kill 2-3 bosses?

If a realm is bad, server transfer. Fixed. There are solutions to every problem listed here but people dont like to hear the truth.

if they nerf normal then the jump normal to heroic is too far. Cant nerf heroics because thats where the challenge is. Normals are just something to do until blizzard lets raiding guilds have at it in heroics.

If it is friends and family, why not raid t14? You are raiding and hanging out with friends.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:02 AM ----------

My sister was a balance spec'd druid healer, quested as a balanced spec cat, and told me that gear with high armor was "great" for my hunter. She also raided Naxx 40.

Really, really bad players were able to participate and progress in the Vanilla raiding scene. They can't today and they are just quitting.

Just because you are in a raid, doesnt mean you are going to progress. Just another example of a bad player that wasnt taught the correct things in wow. Things like this would kill progression, Naxx 40 was no joke especially 4 horseman but just because she raided it doesnt mean anything unless she was full clearing it every week in the first few weeks it was put out.

I know people that raided old content that were horrible and they still are but they raided in bad guilds but did some of the content.

[Ragedaug]

Why cant players learn to get better? Family and friends can learn and get better if they want to but people who arent willing to put out any effort are in the wrong place as far as progression raiding goes. Isnt it raiding if you go in and kill 2-3 bosses?

If a realm is bad, server transfer. Fixed. There are solutions to every problem listed here but people dont like to hear the truth.

if they nerf normal then the jump normal to heroic is too far. Cant nerf heroics because thats where the challenge is. Normals are just something to do until blizzard lets raiding guilds have at it in heroics.

If it is friends and family, why not raid t14? You are raiding and hanging out with friends.

It's not about "can't" it's about "won't". The majority of the players who log on don't equate video gaming time to "putting out effort". The reason they stopped raiding T14 was because they were sick of it. They raided it from October through March. They were stuck on the same bosses the whole time. They are sick of it. The don't equate struggling on the same 5 bosses for 6 months progression. Then ToT comes out and you say, "it's not for you". They say fine, then they drop their sub.

And while that's fine with you, I suspect Blizzard may be giving us Dragonsoul 2.0 in 5.4 to attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of subs, because you won't budge on making normals more accessible.

[isadorr]

It's not about "can't" it's about "won't". The majority of the players who log on don't equate video gaming time to "putting out effort". The reason they stopped raiding T14 was because they were sick of it. They raided it from October through March. They were stuck on the same bosses the whole time. They are sick of it. ToT comes out and you say, "it's not for you". They say fine, then they drop their sub.

And while that's fine with you, I suspect Blizzard may be giving us Dragonsoul 2.0 in 5.4 to attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of subs, because you won't budge on making normals more accessible.

Ironically, the livestream interview 2 days ago on twitchtv.com. had GC come out and say on video, that they thought progression was right where they wanted it. The interviewer asked him what he thought about the state of raiding and GC said they are extremely happy about tot raiding at the moment and would perhaps take this model into the next tier which makes sense, they said 5.4 would come out sooner than most people expect, so keeping the same model and difficulty would take less development.

Also fyi, raiding guilds are invited to test heroic bosses on the PTR, not guilds that wont put any effort out. They scale off of them not someone who puts no effort out.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:11 AM ----------

It's not about "can't" it's about "won't". The majority of the players who log on don't equate video gaming time to "putting out effort". The reason they stopped raiding T14 was because they were sick of it. They raided it from October through March. They were stuck on the same bosses the whole time. They are sick of it. The don't equate struggling on the same 5 bosses for 6 months progression. Then ToT comes out and you say, "it's not for you". They say fine, then they drop their sub.

And while that's fine with you, I suspect Blizzard may be giving us Dragonsoul 2.0 in 5.4 to attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of subs, because you won't budge on making normals more accessible.

A raider doesnt see tweaking his toon as superhuman effort. A person who is lazy and just wants the same loot as everyone else isnt a raider, just someone that logs in and expect to do what everyone else is doing. It isnt hard to tweak your toon to where it should be but if the whole guild is bad, then yes it would take superhuman effort, but then what kind of progression should a guild full of people who dont try expect?

[Ragedaug]

Ironically, the livestream interview 2 days ago on twitchtv.com. had GC come out and say on video, that they thought progression was right where they wanted it. The interviewer asked him what he thought about the state of raiding and GC said they are extremely happy about tot raiding at the moment and would perhaps take this model into the next tier which makes sense, they said 5.4 would come out sooner than most people expect, so keeping the same model and difficulty would take less development.

Also fyi, raiding guilds are invited to test heroic bosses on the PTR, not guilds that wont put any effort out. They scale off of them not someone who puts no effort out.

Sure, I could be wrong. Perhaps Blizzard intends to keep dwindling the raiding population. Perhaps by 5.4 we'll only have 15k guild that have cleared a single boss in T16. You never know. It's their game, they'll do as they please.

I just have a suspicion, since it was the band-aid they used to stop the sub bleeding in Cata, that we are going to see them break it out again in MoP. I think they are shocked that LFR doesn't have the staying power of progression raiding to keep players from dropping their subs.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:19 AM ----------

A raider doesnt see tweaking his toon as superhuman effort. A person who is lazy and just wants the same loot as everyone else isnt a raider, just someone that logs in and expect to do what everyone else is doing. It isnt hard to tweak your toon to where it should be but if the whole guild is bad, then yes it would take superhuman effort, but then what kind of progression should a guild full of people who dont try expect?

You are correct. It isn't hard to tweak your toon. What is hard is tweaking it enough to be viable to clear normal modes. And unless the other 9 were super human, one fail player in T14 would stop your guild from progressing. Just one.

[isadorr]

Sure, I could be wrong. Perhaps Blizzard intends to keep dwindling the raiding population. Perhaps by 5.4 we'll only have 15k guild that have cleared a single boss in T16. You never know. It's their game, they'll do as they please.

I just have a suspicion, since it was the band-aid they used to stop the sub bleeding in Cata, that we are going to see them break it out again in MoP. I think they are shocked that LFR doesn't have the staying power of progression raiding to keep players from dropping their subs.

My guess is that it will stay the same. Titan has been discussed as a E-sport and various interviews of blizzard employess have said harcore many times. I am guessing Wow will be left for more casual players and Titan will be un-nerfed E-sport that the gaming community will respect like it before with arena tournaments.

We know that it's going to be a massively-multiplayer online game and we know that it's being made by Blizzard — the company that brought us the massively-multiplayer and massively-popular online game "World of Warcraft."

But Paul Sams, COO for Blizzard, recently spoke to game industry site Gamasutra and he dropped a few juicy details about the mysterious title.

For starters, Sams said that "Titan" is Blizzard's most ambitious project to date — which must be pretty ambitious considering this is the company that brought us not only "WoW," but the international hits "StarCraft" and "Diablo."

And speaking of "WoW," Sams said he expects "Titan" to eclipse "World of Warcraft" (a game that currently boasts more than 8 million subscribers), and added that they expect the game's reach to be "more hardcore than anything that we've done before."

More hardcore than anything before i like that. And also blizzard moved over the team that started Wow to Titan, the wow that was never nerfed.

And Sams pointed out that many of the people on the "Titan" team are the people who built "WoW." But with those employees being shifted over to "Titan" and so much focus being heaped on the forthcoming game, does this mean Blizzard plans to back away from supporting "WoW"?

The old school developers, hardcore game,E-sport, i think it would be good to separate hardcore players and very casual players.

[Ragedaug]

My guess is that it will stay the same. Titan has been discussed as a E-sport and various interviews of blizzard employess have said harcore many times. I am guessing Wow will be left for more casual players and Titan will be un-nerfed E-sport that the gaming community will respect like it before with arena tournaments.

That doesn't make any sense. If that were true, T14 and T15 would look more like Dragonsoul. They aren't catering to the casuals. The casuals are who's leaving. The raiding population has dwindled to 20,000 guilds, and those guilds are the better guilds. If they all leave to play Titan and Blizzard doesn't do a facelift to WoW raiding, there won't be anyone left.

[isadorr]

That doesn't make any sense. If that were true, T14 and T15 would look more like Dragonsoul. They aren't catering to the casuals. The casuals are who's leaving. The raiding population has dwindled to 20,000 guilds, and those guilds are the better guilds. If they all leave to play Titan and Blizzard doesn't do a facelift to WoW raiding, there won't be anyone left.

Harcore players will go to Titan and whoever has left will hear about Wow being a casual oriented game now will flock back by the thousands. They will log in to faceroll easy content and if they actually want to raid hard content they can give Titan a try but i am guessing 90% of people will stay in Wow loving the easy content, pretty mounts and pets.

Blizzard knows people will come back if they leave. Titan sounds amazing and even some high end guilds have said they are really excited for Titan so that is another giveaway that it isnt going to be a casual carebear adventure game.

[Sesshou]

There is a gap, but why does it even matter and why should they "fix" it? LFR is tuned to where you can mostly ignore all the mechanics and kill the bosses and I think most people agree that it does have to be that easy. Normal mode has mechanics you need to execute properly, but as far as dps/hps go the requirements are incredibly low. I don't see how you can bridge this gap without destroying the point in having 3 difficulties, but I'll go through all the choices:

1) Enough easier than 25m to where you can ignore the mechanics? If yes, then you should just run LFR as that is what you want (except I guess people who feel like they are better than LFR only people when they aren't). If no, then you are going to lower the already incredibly low dps/hps requirements somehow... you could do that, but then people would hit level cap and immediately go run 10m of the latest tier as the way to gear up which kinda seems dumb.
2) Nerf normal modes how? Dps/hps checks are trivial as it is, so that leaves mechanics (also after a point, lowering the dps check really is just a nerf to mechanics as you can then ignore them and lowering the hps check means things have to do less damage which also means you can ignore them more). So basically you'd end up with nerfed mechanics that you can somewhat ignore... that is essentially LFR.
3) You do DS and then you end up with normal mode easier than LFR but provides better loot. No point in having separate difficulties when they are both complete loot pinatas.
4) A 4th difficulty? Really? What, you are going to just make every other mechanic do enough damage that you have to execute it properly? Or you could take out mechanics that you didn't make severe enough to require decent execution, but LFR having mechanics in it (granted you can ignore them) which aren't in this new mode would be kind of dumb.

This entire "gap problem" is really just due to people at LFR skill level being really unhappy that they aren't good enough to go to the next level of raiding where they are required to learn how to properly execute strats to deal with mechanics. LFR was created for the average player, so yeah there will be far less people clearing normals or heroics, but that isn't a problem because it is designed to be that way. The problem is that no matter what game you play, there are an enormous amount of players that refuse to believe they are only average (or lower) when that is actually the case.

[thigan]

Guilds break up, always been happening. Not like guilds said "Dang those trolls in new raid looks scary. Better not even attempt them".

So what you are saying is the there is some magical gap between LFR and Jin'Rokh and right now there are 15600 guilds wiping on Jin'Rokh normal since there is such a huge gap between LFR and normal. Yes, 15600 guilds needs to currently be progressing and wiping on jin'rokh normal to make that gap equal to that of early heroic raiding.

So currently there are, according to you, atleast 150% more guilds progress wiping on Jin'Rokh normal than Horridon normal. Seems completely legit.

Jin'Rokh is the only fight that we do not have full data on as we can not check how many guilds is progressing on it.
If we presume that the LFR raiders actually get Jin'Rokh down. All data after thats supports that the gap after Jin'Rokh is almost non-existant.
So, this magical gap between LFR and Normal needs to be on Jin'Rokh then. Seeing as I have not seen that many (read as: any) threads about "Help my guild on Jin'Rokh normal", and for sure not 150% more threads about that compared to Horridon normal threads, which pop up all the time.

I think it is safe to call bullshit. Or you have some other source showing the public outcry of the overtuning of Jin'Rokh normal forcing over ten thousand LFR guilds trying to get into normal mode raiding falling into the giant ravine that is created by the Gap of the Magical Unicorn (which the gap between LFR and Normal shall hence be referred as)

One word for you: Denial.

I wanna try to make a reasonable argument because I think you are trying to do it too.

First do you accept that you are doing a bunch of assumptions from air, not that it is bad or anything but problem is that is hard to argue against that in a reasonable manner, unless I wanted to fight just to fight.

Second, I don't think that Blizzard lies to us, they accept there is a gap (letting what kind of gap open for now), however I don't think that this is a gap that we are looking from the right perspective. What he say in the interview was something in the lines of: During ICC there was a type of guild that seems that there is no content for them right now, the Family and Friends type of group, one that won't change the roster because some players cannot kill the boss, they have other reasons to raid, and if I even remember correctly he addresses why LFR isn't the right place for this kind of guilds.

From his words looks like normal and heroic, 10 or 25, are not the right place for them. Maybe they moved on yes, maybe this people played because the loved the WoTLK lore and stopped playing after that and no matter what Blizzard did after, they were about to leave. But the words from Blizzard seems to indicate that they feel that they can do something to provide to this kind of guilds some form of Raiding content. Blizzard being Blizzard you can think in options like OP put in the poll.

So in the end this Family and Friends guilds are a mystery for us, we don't know if they leave after ICC, or after t11 being harder, or they only come for the final boss of the expansion because Blizzard provides means to make this boss killable. I can try to make numbers from air and based in my experience, this is, friends that I have that raid in very unsuccessful guilds (that right now are 1/12 or disbanded at the end of t14) and try to compare the big gaps in t14 with t15, but in the end I don't know if those guilds that stopped progressing during t14 are the guilds in the family and friends group. Those that I know stopped either in Elegon or Garalon but I cannot claim that this helps at all to define this kind of guild. However I think that in order to keep a discussion in a way that we can reach good ideas, we need to accept that even if we believe that those players should not exist (I don't agree with this but can accept that someone does), we need to accept that they exist and that could be the reason why Blizzard change something in the raiding model of WoW.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 03:44 AM ----------

That doesn't make any sense. If that were true, T14 and T15 would look more like Dragonsoul. They aren't catering to the casuals. The casuals are who's leaving. The raiding population has dwindled to 20,000 guilds, and those guilds are the better guilds. If they all leave to play Titan and Blizzard doesn't do a facelift to WoW raiding, there won't be anyone left.

Well this is an assumption, we don't know if the best guilds are those that are playing, I guess (an assumption too) that *casuals* don't ever put a foot in a raid, maybe they did after the content is old for the environment, I think those *casuals* that leave at most tried LFR, at most.

[Deleted]

Just for fun I wanted to check how big this "minority" of hardcore raiders is.
I count 25 man guilds as 2.5 guilds because they get 250% more players.
Will present numbers as say 10 (2/5) means 10 'guilds', two 25 man and five 10 mans.
Checking on my realm:

Guilds above 10/13HC: 13 (4/3)
Guilds between 6/13 and 9/13HC: 7 (2/2)
Guilds between 12/12N and 5/13HC: 45.5 (3/38)
Guilds between 6/12N and 11/12N: 24.5 (1/22)
Guilds between 2/12N and 5/12N: 22 (0/22)
Guilds at 1/12N: 24 (0/24)

Guilds in heroic content: 65.5 (9/43)
Guilds in normal content: 70.5 (1/68)

What to notice here is that there are a lot of 'ghost guilds' between 1/12N and 12/12N, guilds that do not exist anymore. Just checking through those guilds the guilds that are actually still raiding in normal content is about half, around 30. One of those 'ghost guilds' is the pug my alt is running in that is 11/12N, that is not a guild, just a pug yet registers at 11/12N.
So there is probably around 60 guilds in heroic content and 30 in normal content (counting 25 mans as 2.5 guilds to compensate for the increased players)

But what we get from this? The average guild is actually between 12/12N to 5/13HC.

So sorry Leonard. I am not in the minority. A majority of the raiding guilds are clearing normals. The people not doing so are the minority.

Yeah, if you remove from consideration all the people who have given up because raids are too difficult, the raids aren't too diffuclt.

lol

Edit - what a friends and family guild is like - you know that point when to progress you have to bench someone or tell them to stop raiding? Well, at that point the F+F guild will not bench them, they stop raiding or wait for nerfs instead because they are more interested in remaining a social group than in downing content. These guilds are the actual backbone of wows subs base. The dragon slaying for most players is just an excuse to meet people online.

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I don't want to even vote.... there is no gap between LFR and Normal because Normal IS the easy mode.

LFR = No dps/hps checks/ignore most mechanics.
Normal = Minor dps/hps checks/do the mechanics of each fight properly and win, yes Lei Shen is pretty tough for a normal guild but so was Lei Shen HC, we all need bosses to aim for otherwise it gets boring.
Heroic = dps/hps checks/new mechanics + execute fight and win.