Why is Shape-Shifting Free?

[Trubo]

Sry, but you don't know much about rogues. The time it takes to go OOC (Out Of Combat) is 6 seconds. Our longest stun is also 6 seconds, so it would seem possible to KS > run away > OOC > stealth, however, that rarely, VERY RARELY, happens. There are multiple reasons for this...

>By the time you actually leave your target you've already wasted 1-2 seconds of the stun, meaning you're not going to OOC > stealth while they're stunned.
>Considering they won't be stunned for those last 2 seconds they're going to hit you with something, but even if they don't there's always their...
>DOTS. We live in the age of DoT spells. Every class has at least one, they last a long time, and they're refreshed constantly. These dots will simply break your stealth immediately even if you do manage to restealth. But if they are imbecile enough not to refresh their dots consistently they always have...
> PETS. Good god. It feels like every class has some sort of pet nowadays! Good luck going OOC with fido chasing you everywhere you go. If it's not fido it's...
> THEIR TEAMMATES. Come on, very little of PvP is 1v1. If they're not hitting your, dotting you, or sicking a pet on you someone else will be.

Everything taken into consideration the likelihood of restealthing off a stun is basically zero. You can do it with blind, but only in a duel and only against certain opponents (those without pets). Even with Blind you'll find yourself restealthing just barely before your enemy's blind ends, and blind lasts 8 seconds! So, in other words, doing it off a six second stun...not really feasible.

Also, I'm confused how this is in any way related to druid shapeshifting? Vanish is related, but going OOC and stealthing? Hardly a means to break roots...

I appreciate your post more than sand's as you seem willing to have a discussion beyond NUH UH YOU'RE WRONG.

To start I was trying to expand on the abilities sand was using to compare to druid shifting (forgot to mention that Warrior Charge can't be used while rooted). As for how familiar with rogues in PvP I am you're right in that I don't main a rogue, nor have I really PvPed since Cata season 9 (think it was 9, whatever season related to T11). I'll start with a 1v1 against a Resto as that's the only spec I pvped as then briefly address a multiple person situation.

To say that a rogue is incapable of getting OoC via KS or 5 CP CS stun seems kind of a strange thing to me, especially if they have a macro that stops attacking after their stun to get them out of combat faster. Plus there's always the option of either pillar humping the druid or, if no obstacles present, just sprinting away to drop combat for stealth. If any DoTs/FF are remaining on you it doesn't really matter if you can range/LoS the druid long enough for them to drop as only the initial applications count for in-combat purposes. Worst comes to pass you can just use Cloak to remove all DoTs/FF before using Stealth.

As for a team situation I hate to turn the question you asked back to you but why is your team allowing you to get tunneled? If you're able to break their targeted burst by forcing them to focus on your rogue briefly (assuming you're not the main target) then it seems you're peeling for your partner correctly. As for the pets comment; pets no longer stay on a different target than their master for more than a few seconds (or has this been reverted?) so as soon as that master targets someone else the pet will be quick to follow. You could cc it in some way to weaken that player beyond the amount of time necessary for the pet to reach its new target (Shiv seems like a great ability for this case depending on what poison you're using due to its short CD.)

As for how this applies to Druid shapeshifting in the sense that it break roots and what not none of the abilities I mentioned were supposed to imply that they break roots; again I was just pointing out that sand glossed over some of their aspects. The removal of snares/roots was addressed in my previous post with me commenting that without that ability it would be extremely difficult to get away as a Druid given the amount of passive slowing effects present in-game.

That's not to say I'm happy with the current shifting model. I'd prefer a small cd to each shapeshift form or, similar to Burst of Speed, shifting to provide a brief immunity to future applications of a slow/root for 2-3 seconds but effect can't occur more than once every 10 seconds or something.

[Bawk]

I think the OP is right. Shapeshifting should get a penalty for doing so. I thought, from lore perspective, that shapeshifting was exhausting druids. So what not add that in the game. What about a Haste rating and hit rating decrease of 35% lasting 60 seconds after shapeshifting into anything.

This has to be the most absurd comment in this entire thread. "Shapeshifting is OP! Lets make it so druids can't cast or hit other players/bosses for an entire minute for shapeshifting! huehuehue!" Until I see a dps decreasing penalty on another class like this, suggesting things like this is ridiculous. Might want to rethink your idea there. lol

[Thimagryn]

"Shit guys, I can't tank the boss. I swapped out of bear form to res the healer and now my hit is lowered 35%. Everyone, stop DPSing for 60 seconds so I can catch my threat back up"

[Littleraven]

you must not have been around in wrath. we had fear immunity while berserk was up. you think its hard to stop a druid now?

i have played since 2006 (late vanilla) and this is literally the first time in all those years ive seen anyone and i mean ANYONE bitch about druids being able to break roots and snares.

[Trubo]

you must not have been around in wrath. we had fear immunity while berserk was up. you think its hard to stop a druid now?

i have played since 2006 (late vanilla) and this is literally the first time in all those years ive seen anyone and i mean ANYONE bitch about druids being able to break roots and snares.

And Berserk lasted 25 seconds. Good times.

[artemishunter1]

It was not free. It used to have high mana cost (atmost you could do 4 or even less). But the new philosophy of only healers running out of mana, you can see how this is a problem. Believe it or not, before wrath, mana management was key for locks, priests and mages (all specs, not just arcane, but now we are just dps cannons)

[Lemons]

To say that a rogue is incapable of getting OoC via KS or 5 CP CS stun seems kind of a strange thing to me, especially if they have a macro that stops attacking after their stun to get them out of combat faster. Plus there's always the option of either pillar humping the druid or, if no obstacles present, just sprinting away to drop combat for stealth. If any DoTs/FF are remaining on you it doesn't really matter if you can range/LoS the druid long enough for them to drop as only the initial applications count for in-combat purposes. Worst comes to pass you can just use Cloak to remove all DoTs/FF before using Stealth.

As for a team situation I hate to turn the question you asked back to you but why is your team allowing you to get tunneled? If you're able to break their targeted burst by forcing them to focus on your rogue briefly (assuming you're not the main target) then it seems you're peeling for your partner correctly. As for the pets comment; pets no longer stay on a different target than their master for more than a few seconds (or has this been reverted?) so as soon as that master targets someone else the pet will be quick to follow. You could cc it in some way to weaken that player beyond the amount of time necessary for the pet to reach its new target (Shiv seems like a great ability for this case depending on what poison you're using due to its short CD.)

I don't want to commit a lot of words to respond to this...because it's not even really on topic. OOC stealth is nigh impossible against a decent team, not because they tunnel you, per se, but because they will keep dots rolling, and they will keep you in combat with ranged spells. If it was easy for a rogue to OOC stealth you'd see it a lot...do you see it a lot? No, if you do then your team is really bad for not rolling dots on him. Go watch a pro match with a rogue and tell me how many times he OOC stealths.

[gutnbrg]

funny how people are saying no1 has ever complained about this before, then why did they change it so at one point druids couldnt shapeshift out of some snares....

[Deleted]

Look at the core abilities of each class and you will see they all have a draw back or cost except for druids shape shift. How do you deny something like that when it is staring you in the face?

Because, as some has already spelled out for you clear enough, restodruids are far weaker in other departments so they need that to compensate. Since you dont get this and are unable to read - please continue the whining on the official forums where it actually could matter.

[Deleted]

Druids have the ability to break out of almost any snare in the game, yet it is almost totally free. Why should such a powerful ability have such a cheap cost?

Maybe it should have a cool down or much higher mana cost?

This guy complains about everything. But in this case he's so right. And the GCD is a fairy tale since 99% of the times they shift back and forward so fast you don't even see it.

[Deleted]

I think the OP is right. Shapeshifting should get a penalty for doing so. I thought, from lore perspective, that shapeshifting was exhausting druids. So what not add that in the game. What about a Haste rating and hit rating decrease of 35% lasting 60 seconds after shapeshifting into anything.

The penalty is you're missing gcd:s and fall even more behind on healing while trying to save your ass.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 10:26 AM ----------

This guy complains about everything. But in this case he's so right. And the GCD is a fairy tale since 99% of the times they shift back and forward so fast you don't even see it.

That is either dependant on you lagging or the druid shifting into feral - feral or tree - tree. If you for example shift tree - feral it takes a cd to get between them.

[Keristrasza]

Look at the core abilities of each class and you will see they all have a draw back or cost except for druids shape shift. How do you deny something like that when it is staring you in the face?

Because we do NOT need every class to be a cookie cutter of each other (Cooldown/etc) for the sake of PVP alone when it is NOT tuned for 1v1 combat. Just because class X cannot do what class Y does, doesn't mean that Y needs an insta-nerf bat to make X happy, it just means that X should call Z to assist him instead of whining about Y. ;x

[wariofan1]

This is the first time someone complained about Shape-Shifting (or I'm just blind).
It is really that big of a deal?

If you were around in Vanilla you'd know the common "shape-shifting out of snares" complaining. Honestly I think it's pretty silly it's still here, it should have been fixed back in Vanilla when every Druid could just snag the flag in WSG and storm out again, but for whatever reason it's still here.

[Northem]

Short answer: because druids are the preferred class of Blizzard, at the end of the day is the only class with 4 specializations and the only class that can fulfill all the roles of the game, including intrinsic mechanics of other classes, such as the stealth of rogues. Is there any lie in what I said?

Of course I was being sarcastic, or maybe not so much ...

[sandmoth12]

And the GCD is a fairy tale since 99% of the times they shift back and forward so fast you don't even see it.

^This.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:59 AM ----------

funny how people are saying no1 has ever complained about this before, then why did they change it so at one point druids couldnt shapeshift out of some snares....

^This.

[Eldrad]

^This.....

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:59 AM ----------


^This.....

Not this. Because as a LONG time feral druid, let me assure you there is a global cooldown and it isn't over fast enough.

Let me paint you a picture, albeit a very specific one...

When fighting a frost mage who has the frost armor up, I will very very often be snared and spend a global cooldown to 'shift' it, and close back to melee range and have my auto attack land and be snared again only to have the mage pull away before I can even hit mangle, thus leaving me with no choice but to 'shift' the snare again.... lather rinse repeat.
The global cooldown is there, and it does it's job, trust me.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 04:07 PM ----------

Druids have the ability to break out of almost any snare in the game, yet it is almost totally free. Why should such a powerful ability have such a cheap cost?

Maybe it should have a cool down or much higher mana cost?

It's not free, and if you snare a feral enough you will OOM him and he will be hitting you with his stat stick in caster form waiting for mana from Innervate to pool up enough to allow him to go back into form.

Ferals are fine. They are the melee class that requires the most up time on a target and their damage is a constant stream instead of large bursty numbers.

The exception to this obviously is during incarnation/berserk. If you want to complain about something, complain about that. It's very over powered against certain classes (specs), but the only way to kill others.

[Deleted]

Not this. Because as a LONG time feral druid, let me assure you there is a global cooldown and it isn't over fast enough.

Let me paint you a picture, albeit a very specific one...

When fighting a frost mage who has the frost armor up, I will very very often be snared and spend a global cooldown to 'shift' it, and close back to melee range and have my auto attack land and be snared again only to have the mage pull away before I can even hit mangle, thus leaving me with no choice but to 'shift' the snare again.... lather rinse repeat.
The global cooldown is there, and it does it's job, trust me.

I don't think we can trust you. I think you have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion that the global cooldown is effective in this case.

[Eldrad]

Vanilla sucked

[sandmoth12]

Not this. Because as a LONG time feral druid, let me assure you there is a global cooldown and it isn't over fast enough.

Let me paint you a picture, albeit a very specific one...

When fighting a frost mage who has the frost armor up, I will very very often be snared and spend a global cooldown to 'shift' it, and close back to melee range and have my auto attack land and be snared again only to have the mage pull away before I can even hit mangle, thus leaving me with no choice but to 'shift' the snare again.... lather rinse repeat.
The global cooldown is there, and it does it's job, trust me.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 04:07 PM ----------



It's not free, and if you snare a feral enough you will OOM him and he will be hitting you with his stat stick in caster form waiting for mana from Innervate to pool up enough to allow him to go back into form.

Ferals are fine. They are the melee class that requires the most up time on a target and their damage is a constant stream instead of large bursty numbers.

The exception to this obviously is during incarnation/berserk. If you want to complain about something, complain about that. It's very over powered against certain classes (specs), but the only way to kill others.

So you think you should keep free power shifting because you have difficulty reaching frost mages. Lol who doesn't? Welcome to the real world.

[Eldrad]

I don't think we can trust you. I think you have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion that the global cooldown is effective in this case.

I can certainly understand your view, I would seem biased. I was however just trying to give you inside perspective of what the feral druid sees.

I encourage you to level one to 90, gear it, do lots of BG and Arena PvP and discover their strengths and weaknesses and what makes the class fun and unique before calling for a nerf to a core mechanic that makes the class what it is and why it's fun to play.

Then you can suggest nerfs based off seeing both sides of fence so to speak.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 04:14 PM ----------

So you think you should keep free power shifting because you have difficulty reaching frost mages. Lol who doesn't? Welcome to the real world.

You took 2 and 2 and added them together and got 5. Not what I said at all.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 04:19 PM ----------

The ability to break almost all snares in game for free is not game breaking? I really don't know how to respond to that. I am at a loss for words...

I think I'll address this post...

Yes , it is not game breaking when the class was designed with that mechanic from the start. Do you not wonder why it was given back to ferals? Because without it they were broke.

Here is the question - are you QQing about ferals being on you, or QQing about not being able to stay on a restro druid as a melee? I think that would be a good thing to know in order to continue this discussion.