Theramore was a fair target.

[yetgdhfgh]

Or they are just making pressure to make sure the tauren stay there.

And in Tides of War, the Tauren was able to easily get out of the gate and murder the few Alliance forces there in order to join the siege of Theramore.

There's not even the faintest hint in the whole storyline that the Alliance ever planned to actually attack Mul'gore.

That makes no sense to me

So you build a road all the way to a enemies gate only so you can just say hey you guys you better stay there or we will be cross

[Shampro]

Alliance dont need anything, they already have more resources than the Horde, in terms of better lands
They just need to eliminate the Horde so it dsnt bother them again

Which is what Varian is doing in 5.3 (Not haveing casualties). Which is also smart, these 2 guys are smart. People need to stop with the fanboism lol. Or atleast look past it.

[Dreknar20]

Which what Varian is doing in 5.3 (Not haveing casualties). Which is also smart, these 2 guys are smart. People need to stop with the fanboism lol.

it dsnt matter who wins the civil war either. Anti or Pro Hellscream the Horde still loses thousands of warriors who would otherwise be thrown at the ALliance

[Tribunal]

Fair target? Maybe?

Upping the game to the "nuclear solution" will always be met with resistance/a side eye from perpetuity. As, to an extent, it should be.

[Dreknar20]

.... like really this expac was about Horde Vs Alliance... .

too bad Horde players spend more time killing other Horde than they do killing Alliance

[Shampro]

Also, Alliance is building a fort in Durotar next to the Echo Isles, if that is not encroaching into Horde territory I don't know what is.

I actually forgot about that, since is basicly the first few quests you do as an Orc since Cata. You're basicly stoping an attack on Durotar from the south, they're both going at it. The reenfourcements to the north/ashenvale have been stoped, which is what Garrosh was trying to do with the mana bomb, stoping any further attack on the north. (Again, Im not saying I agree with his method as Warchief)

[Dairyking101]

I know it's sad.

[Dreknar20]

Fair target? Maybe?

Why maybe?
If you are at war with the Alliance you aim to destroy or take over their cities/towns/bases/or anything
Theramore is an Alliance city, thus there is all the reason you need to want/need to attack it
All that other stuff bout Theramore aiding the invasion of the Barrens only just adds weight to it

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 04:28 AM ----------

Also, Alliance is building a fort in Durotar next to the Echo Isles, if that is not encroaching into Horde territory I don't know what is.

Encroachment happened before Hellscream even took power.
Northwatch was a human fortress built on Horde territory along with dwarf bases/dig sites in the Barrens and Mulgore
All of those served to piss off the Horde as much as Horde encroachment into Ashenvele pissed off the Night Elves

[yetgdhfgh]

Out of interest why is stonard still standing?

Is the alliance really that incompetent to allow a horde outpost to stay for as long as it has

I mean i did the alliance quest and you almost take the town but for some reason pull out if that town was alliance it wouldve been obliterated by now

Alliance military tactics are a joke and the biggest joke will be shown at the end of Siege Of Org when they have a chance to completely crush the horde once and for all and choose not to

[Tribunal]

Why maybe?
If you are at war with the Alliance you aim to destroy or take over their cities/towns/bases/or anything
Theramore is an Alliance city, thus there is all the reason you need to want/need to attack it
All that other stuff bout Theramore aiding the invasion of the Barrens only just adds weight to it

People on both sides can sit here and fairly debate the rules of engagement. I lean towards yes, it was a fair target, but I can also see ground in some of the arguments against it. Ultimately, we lack a lot of the detail we would have in real-world comparisons (treaties, etc) as well as a more real-world parties. In the simplified WoW context, I tend to lean yes. In a more complex context, it all starts to fall to how you fill in the details that are missing.

That being said, my main point was that most people's objection seemed to be less the target than the method of attack.

[7seti]

I don't understand, are you saying that Orgrimmar is not a valid military target? It sure is. Same with all the ally capitals and forts.

I'm saying if Theramore was a valid target, so is Orgrimmar. Some Horde players have a habit of saying Jaina is a psychopathic warmonger for wanting to drown it with a tidal wave, yet also claiming the bombing of Theramore was a justified act. Can't have it both ways, either both are justified or both are not.

This also reveals as false any claims that Thrall was ever neutral. He stepped in to save Org, but couldn't care less about Theramore.

[Vargas]

The Alliance wouldn't have gotten a foothold in the Barrens if Jaina hadn't let the Alliance us Theramore to move supplies and troops in. That made the city a military target, no two ways about it. Did Garrosh have to use a mana bomb? No, but it did send a clear message that the Horde wouldn't tolerate actions like that going on in their backyard or that Garrosh was as soft as Thrall. If anyone is to be blamed its Jaina; if she was so damn smart she should have known there would be a reprisal. She signed her people's death warrants herself.

I actually liked Garrosh as a Warchief in Cataclysm; he didn't take crap from the Alliance and wasn't afraid to get in their faces. It sucks that they've thrown him under the bus and made him power-hungry; I was looking forward to seeing him became a great Warchief and these were basically the events that would have shaped him into the Warchief that Thrall saw in him.

[Dreknar20]

That being said, my main point was that most people's objection seemed to be less the target than the method of attack.

So the mana bomb then......
Is there much difference from using one giant bomb or thousands of smaller bombs?
And if the mana bomb was a cruel way to die, then why do the Kiron Tor and Sunreavers seem content on using them against each other?

[squid]

Definitely a valid target, but there does seem to be a disconnect between what Garrosh considers fair play depending on the quest. Using Mana Bombs, acquired illicitly, which are supposedly the big guns as far as warfare goes, but he expressly forbids the use of Forsaken plague even on purely military targets. There is a quest in Ashenvale where he almost takes your (horde) head for using fel fire magic against night elf demolishers, but he's got the dark shaman going HAM in Ragefire.

[Dreknar20]

If anyone is to be blamed its Jaina; if she was so damn smart she should have known there would be a reprisal. She signed her people's death warrants herself..

Is pussying out of an alliance with your own and other people a better option?

[Aquamonkey]

I'm saying if Theramore was a valid target, so is Orgrimmar. Some Horde players have a habit of saying Jaina is a psychopathic warmonger for wanting to drown it with a tidal wave, yet also claiming the bombing of Theramore was a justified act. Can't have it both ways, either both are justified or both are not.

This also reveals as false any claims that Thrall was ever neutral. He stepped in to save Org, but couldn't care less about Theramore.

Not just the Horde. The Alliance and the Kirin Tor condemned Jaina's actions.

“You’ve come to ask us to throw the full force of our magi behind the Alliance. You’ve asked us to transport Dalaran to Orgrimmar and rain destruction down upon an entire city. We can’t do that, Jaina. We simply can’t. We’ve only just figured out we’re grown-up enough to deal with having Horde representatives among us, Sunreavers, and now you want us to destroy Orgrimmar? The world would erupt in civil war, and our part in it would ensure this very city, which has endured so much, would also be divided. And even if we weren’t, even if Dalaran and the Kirin Tor were in a state where we could handle this, there are merchants and craftsmen and innkeepers and travelers who never marched on Theramore. For pity’s sake, there’s an orphanage in Orgrimmar, my lady! We can’t—we won’t—obliterate innocents.”
--Khadgar in Tides of War

Garrosh didn't kill any civilians in Theramore; they had a week to evacuate. Jaina would have slaughtered everyone in Orgrimmar, including children and she didn't care.

[Airwaves]

Hellscream did the right thing in theramore. He gave them more then enough time to evacuate every single civilian (which they did) and then let it fill up with the alliance army. It was a perfect attacked that removed a major threat to the horde along with alot of extra alliance armies. Alliance still has a right to be pissed off. Its the same as of the alliance wiped out blightwater harbor. Its a military target with almost no civilians but horde would still be pissed off it they wiped it out.

Theramore was the right thing to do. If hellscream kept the war up like that then it would be fine. But what his done since is his downfall.

[Dreknar20]

Theramore was the right thing to do. If hellscream kept the war up like that then it would be fine. But what his done since is his downfall.

then why were Baine, Vol'jin, and others so pissy about it?

[Shampro]

The Alliance wouldn't have gotten a foothold in the Barrens if Jaina hadn't let the Alliance us Theramore to move supplies and troops in. That made the city a military target, no two ways about it. Did Garrosh have to use a mana bomb? No, but it did send a clear message that the Horde wouldn't tolerate actions like that going on in their backyard or that Garrosh was as soft as Thrall. If anyone is to be blamed its Jaina; if she was so damn smart she should have known there would be a reprisal. She signed her people's death warrants herself.

I actually liked Garrosh as a Warchief in Cataclysm; he didn't take crap from the Alliance and wasn't afraid to get in their faces. It sucks that they've thrown him under the bus and made him power-hungry; I was looking forward to seeing him became a great Warchief and these were basically the events that would have shaped him into the Warchief that Thrall saw in him.

Your second point is what is incorrect, Thrall's idea of a good warchief wasnt to declare war on the Night elves on the north or ordering the Forsaken to destroy the Worgen/hillsbrad. They both had diffrent ideals, period.

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 02:39 AM ----------

then why were Baine, Vol'jin, and others so pissy about it?

Because hellscreams Horde, is not the same as the Horde in which Thrall united the other Races, it is not the same period, theres no 2 ways around it, Thrall and Garrosh are not the same at all. Voljin and Baine have a different view of the Horde.

Its not rocket science people...

[Goretex]

Remember the alliance that encroached on Horde territory and Garrosh had to kill them, because they were breaking a peace treaty?