My Future Glimpse of 5.4, Alliance Side

[Talen]

first is that blizzard really doesn't discuss the size of the army that the alliance is sending, yes people keep saying it's the entirety of the alliance military

No...its not. But its expected to be large enough to have a good chance of winning the fight.

To put it another way, Vol'jin thinks with Tauren help he can take the city. That's not a strong case for saying that Orgimmar is strongly defended. You can argue its tough nut to crack, but if Vol'jin thinks he can take it, then a large Alliance force should also be capable of doing the same.

second is that vol'jin is actively hinted at as planning to seek help from outside the horde at the end of the horde quest chain for the same reason

Actually...Baine suggests it.

for alliance they see themselves making the first move in what to them becomes playing two groups against each other as a means of letting the player feel like they made it happen, for horde you see the line mentioning help form outside the horde and you instantly know "he's going to call on the allis to get rid of the orc whose been throwing deus ex machina doomsday weapons at them" so really depending on which is considered canon (cause alli and horde quest chains sometimes clash with each other in that regard) it could be that he DOES seek outside help first.

No, he doesn't. The allies go to him after Baine gives his little talk.

the reason for the response is actually partially what I just said above and partially political, consider for a moment you're discussing something with a group you have been fighting for a long time, they sent the person you're talking to into your camp with a white flag and some diplomatic rights and that person suggested a temporary cease fire and helping you out, then that same person proceeds to look around and say something indicating that maybe instead they should just send a big force to wipe you out and save themselves the trouble, you do NOT want to show weakness, you want to appear tough you want to appear as though you have a backup plan (even if you don't) so that they can't consider fighting you the better option. really as much as the response is brought up as justification for saying vol'jin is stupid and similar things really it is politics, and sadly for politics some people have to say things that are pretty much empty.

It's acceptable for Vol'jin to bluff. It's unacceptable for him to try and use a bluff that is a: transparent to the person he is trying to bluff and b: when the bluffer KNOWS it is transparent. Vol'jin needs the arms - he isn't going to refuse them. The Alliance player is there partly to make sure the invasion can go ahead so Vol'jins "Bluff" simply means nothing...if they can't secure the area with Vol'jins help, they'll land elsewhere or wait for Vol'jina nd his crew to die fighting. Vol'jins hand was empty and both sides knew it. That's why the bluff is stupid.

Vol'jin is BETTER than that.

gameplay wise there really IS a reason players should take orders from vol'jin. it's so that alliance don't get a full quest hub camp in the middle of a horde starter zone that houses two races as well as the main capital.

It's called phasing. Its been in the game a while. And if this was a serious objection, we wouldn't be invading Orgrimmar or making free with battlefield Barrens. We'd be laying siege to Garroshes newest super secret volcano lair..

There is no gameplay reason for the Alliance not to have a quest hub and questgivers of their own.

but at the same time that's justified in the story for this patch

No. It is never OK to completely ignore one faction in favor of the other. And that is effectively what happened 5.3.

the alliance is actively moving whatever forces it's sending into the area but they aren't there yet, lorewise it takes far longer to travel than in game and since the alliance forces were largely busy with their own individual problems as well as pandaria they really didn't have an incursion force right on the shore.

A nonsensical argument. If Blizzard wanted a major force there, they'd be there. If nothing else, Talrendis Point could be used and the invasion written as coming from land instead of sea.

on this suggested quest chain it seems like the alliance is forcing the entire rebellion which would be a TERRIBLE move, if they already know it's going to happen they shouldn't warn the person that's going to be deposed his enemy is alive, they should be moving to aid vol'jin first and fortify his position.

Getting two enemies fighting seems like a good plan. And I suggested we have the Alliance goof by over estimating Vol'jins readiness.

telling garrosh in disguise "vol'jin is alive, send troops here" is simply asking the korkron forces to wipe out the unfortified unprepared sen'jin village while garrosh remains perfectly safe in the steel clad walls and heavily guarded streets of orgrimar

Is it as stupid as attacking Kor'kron bases in the Barrens and kicking off a rebellion you don't have the forces or supplies to fight? Resulting in the aforementioend attack on Sen'jin anyway?

plus if the alliance can send someone in disguise right up TO garrosh wouldn't it be smarter from both a story and faction standpoint to simply stick a dagger in his neck then and there?

You seem to think the Alliance is on the Darkspears side here. Why kill Garrosh and stop the Horde infighting when the goal is to destroy the Horde as a threat?

the alliance really gains nothing from weakening the darkspear rebellion

On finding out Vol'jin had open rebelled, Garrosh sent a force of Kor'kron to Senjin. Orgrimmar was weakened and his forces dispersed.

In this example plot, what I've done is suggest that the Alliance over estimated Vol'jin preparedness and forced the issue. Because they over estimated the Darkspears, they are forced to intervene more directly to ensure the survival of the rebellion - which in turn leads to an uneasy truce between the two sides. I've given them a quest hub and quest NPCs and had them gather resources to support their own operations. Each side also gets a unique daily to reflect its role. I've also tried to ensure that reasons are provided for the various activities and to ensure each is acting for himself -progressing their own sides story. I've ensured both sides get to take part in a battle scene.

Why doesn't the Alliance assassinate Garrosh? Because that weakens their position. They want the Trolls and Garrosh at each others throats. Getting rid of Garrosh simply ends their civil war before it begins. How does that help the Alliance?
Why do they force the rebellion before Vol'jin is ready? Because they goofed....they thought Vol'jin was nearly ready and they are forced into very limited cooperation to keep the rebellion alive. That's partly why I had them help out at Sen'jin.

The end result is, I hope, to suggest a possible storyline that follows - broadly - the existing story in game, albeit in a different order and with some rewritten quest text. Is it perfect? No...but at the same time I think this shows what Blizzard could have done, impl shifting around the quest order and doing a simple rewrite.

it does seem like a lot of the issues with recent lore have been ones of a faction being angry that another faction is getting story, this thread being an example in which many alliance players feel that horde has got too much of a focus in what they feel is their moment to crush the horde

Had this been the first such instance then the outcry wouldn't have happened. 3+ years of getting little or no progression is why the outcry has happened.

(with many alliance players stating the opinion that the horde should just be completely destroyed

Which is why the Alliance can't win. They would take steps to ensure the Horde never ever became a threat again.

as long as one faction claims it's unfair whenever the other faction gets a bit of story it detracts from the game overall as blizzard winds up scrambling to try and correct the perceived wrong and generally angers the group in a different way.

The problem isn't one faction getting a bit of lore. Its one faction getting all the lore and progression all the time. And for many players, thats what it feels like.

one example is tyrande

The problem with Tyrande is that in WoW, she was eye candy. She wasn't the same leader she was in WC3. The Malfurion turned up and she was worse...her short story was more about Malfurion than it was about her. So much so, they retconned it into a Malf and Tyrande leadership story. In 5.1, she was back to being reckless....and also dumb and incompetent. And that was why she got such a poor reception.

Put simply...Alliance players didn't like her being dumbed down simply to make Varian look good.

in warcraft three when she was introduced she was a VERY bloodthirsty leader in terms of diplomacy, the warsong orcs were gathering lumber to build a settlement and the nightelves attacked them simply for being in the area and cutting down trees, even sent cenarius out to kill them and then used their attack on them as an excuse to label them all as evil and impossible to join forces with until forced to near the end of the campaign.

Thats overly simplistic and highly misleading.

the thing is that it still winds up not being good enough because of how difficult it is to make the 5.3 storyline appear even.

No...it'd be fairly easy to make the 5.3 storyline even. You could make things a lot better simply by removing that "Why should we trust you?" question. That'd go a long way. All the Alliance need to do was go to Vol'jin and say" We're willing to help your fight, but you need to do something for us" - changing the tone of the conversation by deleting a couple of text blurbs would go a long way. It wouldn't fix everything - there is simply too much wrong with the entire setup - but it would have helped.

EJL

[luccadeo]

No...its not. But its expected to be large enough to have a good chance of winning the fight.

To put it another way, Vol'jin thinks with Tauren help he can take the city. That's not a strong case for saying that Orgimmar is strongly defended. You can argue its tough nut to crack, but if Vol'jin thinks he can take it, then a large Alliance force should also be capable of doing the same.



Actually...Baine suggests it.



No, he doesn't. The allies go to him after Baine gives his little talk.



It's acceptable for Vol'jin to bluff. It's unacceptable for him to try and use a bluff that is a: transparent to the person he is trying to bluff and b: when the bluffer KNOWS it is transparent. Vol'jin needs the arms - he isn't going to refuse them. The Alliance player is there partly to make sure the invasion can go ahead so Vol'jins "Bluff" simply means nothing...if they can't secure the area with Vol'jins help, they'll land elsewhere or wait for Vol'jina nd his crew to die fighting. Vol'jins hand was empty and both sides knew it. That's why the bluff is stupid.

Vol'jin is BETTER than that.



It's called phasing. Its been in the game a while. And if this was a serious objection, we wouldn't be invading Orgrimmar or making free with battlefield Barrens. We'd be laying siege to Garroshes newest super secret volcano lair..

There is no gameplay reason for the Alliance not to have a quest hub and questgivers of their own.



No. It is never OK to completely ignore one faction in favor of the other. And that is effectively what happened 5.3.



A nonsensical argument. If Blizzard wanted a major force there, they'd be there. If nothing else, Talrendis Point could be used and the invasion written as coming from land instead of sea.




Getting two enemies fighting seems like a good plan. And I suggested we have the Alliance goof by over estimating Vol'jins readiness.



Is it as stupid as attacking Kor'kron bases in the Barrens and kicking off a rebellion you don't have the forces or supplies to fight? Resulting in the aforementioend attack on Sen'jin anyway?



You seem to think the Alliance is on the Darkspears side here. Why kill Garrosh and stop the Horde infighting when the goal is to destroy the Horde as a threat?



On finding out Vol'jin had open rebelled, Garrosh sent a force of Kor'kron to Senjin. Orgrimmar was weakened and his forces dispersed.

In this example plot, what I've done is suggest that the Alliance over estimated Vol'jin preparedness and forced the issue. Because they over estimated the Darkspears, they are forced to intervene more directly to ensure the survival of the rebellion - which in turn leads to an uneasy truce between the two sides. I've given them a quest hub and quest NPCs and had them gather resources to support their own operations. Each side also gets a unique daily to reflect its role. I've also tried to ensure that reasons are provided for the various activities and to ensure each is acting for himself -progressing their own sides story. I've ensured both sides get to take part in a battle scene.

Why doesn't the Alliance assassinate Garrosh? Because that weakens their position. They want the Trolls and Garrosh at each others throats. Getting rid of Garrosh simply ends their civil war before it begins. How does that help the Alliance?
Why do they force the rebellion before Vol'jin is ready? Because they goofed....they thought Vol'jin was nearly ready and they are forced into very limited cooperation to keep the rebellion alive. That's partly why I had them help out at Sen'jin.

The end result is, I hope, to suggest a possible storyline that follows - broadly - the existing story in game, albeit in a different order and with some rewritten quest text. Is it perfect? No...but at the same time I think this shows what Blizzard could have done, impl shifting around the quest order and doing a simple rewrite.



Had this been the first such instance then the outcry wouldn't have happened. 3+ years of getting little or no progression is why the outcry has happened.



Which is why the Alliance can't win. They would take steps to ensure the Horde never ever became a threat again.



The problem isn't one faction getting a bit of lore. Its one faction getting all the lore and progression all the time. And for many players, thats what it feels like.



The problem with Tyrande is that in WoW, she was eye candy. She wasn't the same leader she was in WC3. The Malfurion turned up and she was worse...her short story was more about Malfurion than it was about her. So much so, they retconned it into a Malf and Tyrande leadership story. In 5.1, she was back to being reckless....and also dumb and incompetent. And that was why she got such a poor reception.

Put simply...Alliance players didn't like her being dumbed down simply to make Varian look good.



Thats overly simplistic and highly misleading.



No...it'd be fairly easy to make the 5.3 storyline even. You could make things a lot better simply by removing that "Why should we trust you?" question. That'd go a long way. All the Alliance need to do was go to Vol'jin and say" We're willing to help your fight, but you need to do something for us" - changing the tone of the conversation by deleting a couple of text blurbs would go a long way. It wouldn't fix everything - there is simply too much wrong with the entire setup - but it would have helped.

EJL

Talen, Blizz needs to hire you to write the Alliance side story for them. Odin knows they can't do it themselves.

[RyanEX]

This has been said before, If they allow the alliance to attack a horde capital. The will have to let Horde do the same. Pure gameplay reasons. Sucks but that's how WoW operates.
That's why the whole rebellion story was inventend. Maybe, because they wanted to make sure that Horde wouldn't feel left out while their capitol was besieged, they spent a lot of time on making a cool story for them. And sort of took for granted that the Alliance would find besieging Orgrimmar awesome regardless of reasoning. Which they should imo, but I'm stating to assume I'm a minorty in that regard.
Your waterboying and feetrubbing comments are growing stale btw, get some new material I'm not arguing that the Alliance could have gotten a better story, I just think you are overreacting a bit. Who knows, that if roles were reversed, I would have done the same. pure egotistical I'm just glad they are making up for the fact the I had to endure a complete asshat as a warchief for 2 years by making me kick his butt (hopefully).
I feel like I'm repeating myself so I'm withdrawing from this discussion, best of luck to the Alliance coming 5.4. Now if you excuse me, I have an appointment with Vol'Jin to rub his feet. (he does that to everyone you know? ;( )

And this is why it doesn't work, you seem to know the reason why Alliance lore and story nerds're mad, but yet don't understand it.

You say that we should be pumped to be sieging Org, to be taking down a warchief. But there's the thing. Nobody likes the guy. Alliance are basically invading Org to GIVE IT BACK TO THE HORDE. And Blizzard doesn't seem to mind or care that they've all but told the Alliance that that's their purpose in this xpac. That that's their fist pumping moment. It's tantamount to Horde getting ALP with Garrosh as Varian and Vol'Jin (after his development) as Tyrande.

If that is going to be our big moment then you'd think they'd have put a little more effort into 5.3 instead of giving the dreaded "wait and see" response. That is NOT something an Alliance player likes to hear and generally provokes feelings of dread.

[razorfire]

No...its not. But its expected to be large enough to have a good chance of winning the fight.

To put it another way, Vol'jin thinks with Tauren help he can take the city. That's not a strong case for saying that Orgimmar is strongly defended. You can argue its tough nut to crack, but if Vol'jin thinks he can take it, then a large Alliance force should also be capable of doing the same.



Actually...Baine suggests it.



No, he doesn't. The allies go to him after Baine gives his little talk.



It's acceptable for Vol'jin to bluff. It's unacceptable for him to try and use a bluff that is a: transparent to the person he is trying to bluff and b: when the bluffer KNOWS it is transparent. Vol'jin needs the arms - he isn't going to refuse them. The Alliance player is there partly to make sure the invasion can go ahead so Vol'jins "Bluff" simply means nothing...if they can't secure the area with Vol'jins help, they'll land elsewhere or wait for Vol'jina nd his crew to die fighting. Vol'jins hand was empty and both sides knew it. That's why the bluff is stupid.

Vol'jin is BETTER than that.



It's called phasing. Its been in the game a while. And if this was a serious objection, we wouldn't be invading Orgrimmar or making free with battlefield Barrens. We'd be laying siege to Garroshes newest super secret volcano lair..

There is no gameplay reason for the Alliance not to have a quest hub and questgivers of their own.



No. It is never OK to completely ignore one faction in favor of the other. And that is effectively what happened 5.3.



A nonsensical argument. If Blizzard wanted a major force there, they'd be there. If nothing else, Talrendis Point could be used and the invasion written as coming from land instead of sea.




Getting two enemies fighting seems like a good plan. And I suggested we have the Alliance goof by over estimating Vol'jins readiness.



Is it as stupid as attacking Kor'kron bases in the Barrens and kicking off a rebellion you don't have the forces or supplies to fight? Resulting in the aforementioend attack on Sen'jin anyway?



You seem to think the Alliance is on the Darkspears side here. Why kill Garrosh and stop the Horde infighting when the goal is to destroy the Horde as a threat?



On finding out Vol'jin had open rebelled, Garrosh sent a force of Kor'kron to Senjin. Orgrimmar was weakened and his forces dispersed.

In this example plot, what I've done is suggest that the Alliance over estimated Vol'jin preparedness and forced the issue. Because they over estimated the Darkspears, they are forced to intervene more directly to ensure the survival of the rebellion - which in turn leads to an uneasy truce between the two sides. I've given them a quest hub and quest NPCs and had them gather resources to support their own operations. Each side also gets a unique daily to reflect its role. I've also tried to ensure that reasons are provided for the various activities and to ensure each is acting for himself -progressing their own sides story. I've ensured both sides get to take part in a battle scene.

Why doesn't the Alliance assassinate Garrosh? Because that weakens their position. They want the Trolls and Garrosh at each others throats. Getting rid of Garrosh simply ends their civil war before it begins. How does that help the Alliance?
Why do they force the rebellion before Vol'jin is ready? Because they goofed....they thought Vol'jin was nearly ready and they are forced into very limited cooperation to keep the rebellion alive. That's partly why I had them help out at Sen'jin.

The end result is, I hope, to suggest a possible storyline that follows - broadly - the existing story in game, albeit in a different order and with some rewritten quest text. Is it perfect? No...but at the same time I think this shows what Blizzard could have done, impl shifting around the quest order and doing a simple rewrite.



Had this been the first such instance then the outcry wouldn't have happened. 3+ years of getting little or no progression is why the outcry has happened.



Which is why the Alliance can't win. They would take steps to ensure the Horde never ever became a threat again.



The problem isn't one faction getting a bit of lore. Its one faction getting all the lore and progression all the time. And for many players, thats what it feels like.



The problem with Tyrande is that in WoW, she was eye candy. She wasn't the same leader she was in WC3. The Malfurion turned up and she was worse...her short story was more about Malfurion than it was about her. So much so, they retconned it into a Malf and Tyrande leadership story. In 5.1, she was back to being reckless....and also dumb and incompetent. And that was why she got such a poor reception.

Put simply...Alliance players didn't like her being dumbed down simply to make Varian look good.



Thats overly simplistic and highly misleading.



No...it'd be fairly easy to make the 5.3 storyline even. You could make things a lot better simply by removing that "Why should we trust you?" question. That'd go a long way. All the Alliance need to do was go to Vol'jin and say" We're willing to help your fight, but you need to do something for us" - changing the tone of the conversation by deleting a couple of text blurbs would go a long way. It wouldn't fix everything - there is simply too much wrong with the entire setup - but it would have helped.

EJL

first off he doesn't just rely on the tauren, he KNOWS the bloodelves are going to get involved and it's almost garunteed sylvanis will take her shot at getting rid of garrosh, that's one of the reasons he waits, so they can get there.

second and third ones, my mistake I honestly haven't played through alliance side.

fourth: really the entire questioning comment that led to it was a dumb idea by blizzard but in the situation, what proof does the alliance player really have that the bluff is empty? they just know that at the time vol'jin is at a disadvantage not that he can't turn things around or that he's really and truely going to be dead without alliance intervention, the same arguement you use later of "if blizzard wanted a major force there there would be a major force there" could easily be used to explain the horde not needing alliance help and vice versa.

on the comment of one side being completely ignored. THEY'RE NOT IGNORED! they don't get the spotlight yes, they aren't pushing the event forward all on their own yes. are they ignored? no, that would be barring them from inclusion completely and holding off any reasoning for them to even be there until 5.4 with maybe an NPC dialogue saying "y'know I think we should go kill garrosh soon"

the phasing arguement can be brought up yes, but again. put an alli base in a horde starting zone and the horde will want one in the alliance starting zone, this entire thread is an example of one side being angry the other side has something and you don't think the same will happen in reverse if you have a foothold right at the other faction's main base?

on the two enemies fighting thing.. one of them barely constitutes an enemy, heck the alliance treating them like dirt and saying they are an enemy really serves no purpose because if you help them THEY HAVE NO REASON TO FIGHT YOU. the faction will be crippled by distrust later regardless do you really need the parts of it that might actually tolerate you fully willing to go to war over this the second they get back their strength? I meant here's wanting war in warcraft then there's not thinking ahead.

the rebellion technically is at a point where ready or not it needs to happen in which case it IS best to weaken the enemy supply lines considering they're preparing for a siege. orgrimar is dependant on outside supplies for a number of things and cutting them greatly increases the chance of success, vol'jin has almost all of the trolls and tauren outside of orgrimar capable of assisting and if they're careful they can push up to orgrimar where the defenses pick up without needing outside help, the problem is actually sieging the city in which case it becomes a battle of attrition and supplies.

on the assassinating garrosh thing... yeah they actually would benefit from that a TON. A: garrosh and his superweapon plans are gone. B: the more militant orcs that follow him are highly demoralized. C: you have grateful rebellion members for getting rid of the same person they wanted to kill which should atleast ease some of the bad blood between the factions if not spark a ceasefire. saying that the alliance should spark it regardless of the reason when the main goal on both sides is to dethrone and kill garrosh and then NOT killing garrosh when a golden opportunity is presented is just bad planning.

on the "no progress" part, again they ARE getting progress, it's just not major. a lot of allis I've talked to are fine with the story that they're getting and really see no reason to complain but the issue is that the ones that don't are seeing it as an attack on them and their faction or as favoritism where really if you think about it, horde NEEDS a good reason to attack their own capital, alliance could gladly sack orgrimar because someone said it looked at them funny.

atleast we agree on the why neither side can really win part.

the problem with tyrande isn't the eye candy part, heck that is MUCH worse in the novels (knaak: hater of orcs, lover of redheaded humans: master of self inserts no one likes who impregnate windrunners then finally die when a better writer says "to heck with this guy" but will probably find some way to say "nope he lived" later.) the problem is that blizz made the same mistake they made with thrall. they went from doing nothing in game with her except maybe a piece of dialogue or a small part in an expansion pre-event, to putting her in things that people felt they were handled badly in in an attempt to please those exact same people. and to be honest on the not liking her being dumbed down.. and the disagreement with my summary of her in warcraft 3... really go back and play it, there's a moment where malfurion suggests joining forces with the orcs and humans since they're fighting the scourge and demons and she goes "no, they're all evil, they killed cenarius, sit down shut up and kill them" (not the exact words but definately what it felt like) and he just backs off because she very clearly does NOT want anything to do with them that isn't fighting. people often hype up the nightelves as an ultra elite fighting force due to their long lives but they forget that long lives with no major threat makes them complacent which makes them slip, and when your leader is an aggressive person in charge of a complacent force with a LOT of pride in their fighting you wind up with what the nightelves currently have. it's not really misleading considering it really is the case that in warcraft three they attacked the orcs first and continued to attack after because they were in their sacred forest, instead of possibly sending someone to ask them to leave or to find some other means of getting the supplies (which when WoW finally came up was something they tried to do in diplomatic talks) the nightelves as a race were not as happy to accept others as they are in WoW or in the frozen throne expansion where they had just gotten out of being helped by the groups they were seeing. they fought and if you weren't someone they knew you were an enemy until they got forced to think otherwise.

on the final point, again we agree that removing that text would've helped alot but simply by including the "why should we help you" in the first place blizz got stuck because of the INSTANT demand for blood that wound up with the response which then angered some horde players in turn. it's like the pandaren starting zone, there was one comment where a male pandaren was being...oh I don't know...male.. a player said it was creepy and inappropriate and blizz rushed to change it to avoid appearing sexist, they really don't think when something is yelled at them as "this is wrong, I'm insulted, fix it or else", they just rush to find something to appease the person who yelled it and as I said before, they often anger either that same person or someone else.

[Talen]

first off he doesn't just rely on the tauren, he KNOWS the bloodelves are going to get involved and it's almost garunteed sylvanis will take her shot at getting rid of garrosh, that's one of the reasons he waits, so they can get there.

And they aren't there. He asks for Baines help so he can take the city. Its Baine who has the doubts and presses for an alliance.

Vol'jin says: Lor'themar be ready to strike once he be finished wit da Isle of Thunder, and da Banshee Queen need no excuse, but they both across da sea. Without ya strength, we can't breech da city. I need tauren arms.


To me...this is clear. Vol'jin, who as a faction leader has a very good knowledge of the cities defences and weak points, think he can take it with Tauren aid. He has other allies, but they aren't available. With Tauren strength, he thinks the city can be breached.

fourth: really the entire questioning comment that led to it was a dumb idea by blizzard but in the situation, what proof does the alliance player really have that the bluff is empty?

Because Vol'jin doesn't have the option to stand back and wait. And everyone knows that. If the Alliance don't land and ditract Garrosh, Garrosh and Vol'jin will fight regardless of Vol'jins threat. The bluff is empty because the Alliance do not have to land. Vol'jin knows this. The palyer knows this,.A nd the character points it out with the call bluff option.

Its a stupidly transparent bluff that Vol'jin should never have made because it makes HIM look dumb.

on the comment of one side being completely ignored. THEY'RE NOT IGNORED!

The Alliance progress no lore, develop no story of their own. They report to a Horde fation leader, and perform errands for him. They may not be 100% ignored, but if you changed the player into an Orc, would it make any difference to how the Alliance story is beign progressed?

the phasing arguement can be brought up yes, but again. put an alli base in a horde starting zone and the horde will want one in the alliance starting zone

Which would be meaningless without a reason to put it there and also something I don't have an issue with.

on the two enemies fighting thing.. one of them barely constitutes an enemy, heck the alliance treating them like dirt and saying they are an enemy really serves no purpose because if you help them THEY HAVE NO REASON TO FIGHT YOU.

A mutual enemy does NOT make you BFFs. The Trolls and rest of the Horde **SUPPORTED** Garroshes war aims. Why do you think that changing the leader will affect that?

the faction will be crippled by distrust later regardless do you really need the parts of it that might actually tolerate you fully willing to go to war over this the second they get back their strength? I meant here's wanting war in warcraft then there's not thinking ahead.

Thinking ahead means ensuring both factions get decimated.

the rebellion technically is at a point where ready or not it needs to happen

The problem is the Battlefield Barrens quests have you gathering the supplies he needs to fight. He started the fight before he was ready. He diodn't need to start it at that time - he chose to.

on the assassinating garrosh thing... yeah they actually would benefit from that a TON. A: garrosh and his superweapon plans are gone.

Garrosh is gone. His superweapons aren't.

B: the more militant orcs that follow him are highly demoralized.

Making them easier to roll into the Rebel forces.

C: you have grateful rebellion members for getting rid of the same person they wanted to kill which should atleast ease some of the bad blood between the factions if not spark a ceasefire.

What rationale could be given for a ceasefire? None

saying that the alliance should spark it regardless of the reason when the main goal on both sides is to dethrone and kill garrosh and then NOT killing garrosh when a golden opportunity is presented is just bad planning.

Since when is the main goal of the Alliance the killing of Garrosh? It isn't. Blizzard hasn't actually developed any story for that. The Alliance is at war with the Horde. Garrosh is a target because he leads the Horde. Killing Garrosh does little to further the war aims of the Alliance because it is then likely one of the Rebel leaders will be warchief. And they have no reason to make peace with the Alliance either.

it's not really misleading considering it really is the case that in warcraft three they attacked the orcs first and continued to attack after because they were in their sacred forest, instead of possibly sending someone to ask them to leavep

Such as a Sentinel Commander who approached them in Ashenvale forest escorted by just two bodyguards and who were approaching the Orc encampment, in PLAIN view and making no effort to hide, despite being an Elf in a forest that the Orcs were felling? And were then promptly fired upon by twitchy orcs?

, there was one comment where a male pandaren was being...oh I don't know...male.. a player said it was creepy and inappropriate and blizz rushed to change it to avoid appearing sexist, they really don't think when something is yelled at them as "this is wrong, I'm insulted, fix it or else", they just rush to find something to appease the person who yelled it and as I said before, they often anger either that same person or someone else.

I did beta. The quote gave him character. It was also "creepy". And not in a good way. He came over as a lecher. Thats likely not the type of character Blizzard was going for.

EJL

[jimboa24]

I did beta. The quote gave him character. It was also "creepy". And not in a good way. He came over as a lecher. Thats likely not the type of character Blizzard was going for.

EJL

What are you talking about? What character and what quote?

[Talen]

What are you talking about? What character and what quote?

Ji Firepaw.

"Hello, friend! You're some kind of gorgeous, aren't you? I bet you can't keep the men off of you! Join me! You and I are going to be good friends!"


It gave him character but to many players...it also gave him a creepy vibe. So Blizzard changed the text.

EJL

[Falrinn]

I'm really dead genuine. Assuming that this is not precisely what happens in the Siege of Orgrimmar assault, then its in any event extremely damn close. I ensure that some variety of what's posted above is what is set to happen.

If by "some variety" you mean "nothing aside from the fact it physically takes place in Orgrimmar", then yes that is exactly what's happening. Someone wrote up an overly pessimistic prediction for no reason other then to drum up drama, nothing more, nothing less. That was obvious once the OP started talking about polishing armor.

I'm sure when it's all said and done we can have a discussion on whether the Alliance was given a fair deal in the SoO. As it stands I have reason to be optimistic, Jaina is still very much Alliance-aligned, Tyrande is probably the one who breaks down the front gates of Orgrimmar, and even Gelbin Mekkatorque will pop in to say "hi". I'm sure there will be things that could of been done better, but until we actually know all of what we are getting it's pointless to figure out what those things are.