WotLK to MoP: A Trend Analysis of Raiding Difficulty.

[Deleted]

He's just counting 10 man, rechecked. 10 man was very easy and wasn't really classed as proper raiding, it was for very casual players who didn't have much skill.

10 man is wotlk version of LFR. So it would only be fair to compare wotlk 10 man against ToT LFR.

Ah well it was very easy in 25 man gear.

25 man wasn't exactly tricky either until putricide, mind you. Every reset most people would pug til him on alts, collect loot, win.

[voxTree]

If you want them, you train them. It's not everybody elses job to subsidise your raid enironment. you guys are so entitled!

No, but you can accept lazy and ignorant as fact and design for it. Rather than, oh I don't know pointlessly and uselessly bitching that people aren't being what you want them to be. Your own laziness is in lack of willingness to train others. Your own ignorance is a refusal to accept what other people actually are like.

We have attempted to train a few bad apples and they refused the help, fighting it tooth and nail. Most people are overly defensive about that stuff nowadays. Instead of admitting "yeah, I guess I'm not all that optimal", they blame lag, or an addon, or their dog. Much like many of the people who have replied to this thread. If you point out that they may not be doing as good as they could be, an endless stream of excuses usually follows.

It's tough recruiting people for progression who want a shiny title but refuse to learn how Ice Block works or read up on boss strategies. Again, nobody can fix laziness and ignorance. That's all on the player. Unfortunately, WoW has been so nerfed and watered down that the general audience has come to expect the nerfs.

[Glorious Leader]

We have attempted to train a few bad apples and they refused the help, fighting it tooth and nail. Most people are overly defensive about that stuff nowadays. Instead of admitting "yeah, I guess I'm not all that optimal", they blame lag, or an addon, or their dog. Much like many of the people who have replied to this thread. If you point out that they may not be doing as good as they could be, an endless stream of excuses usually follows.

It's tough recruiting people for progression who want a shiny title but refuse to learn how Ice Block works or read up on boss strategies. Again, nobody can fix laziness and ignorance. That's all on the player. Unfortunately, WoW has been so nerfed and watered down that the general audience has come to expect the nerfs.

It's only tough because the raid is tough. You'd have an army of players if the raid was easier. I don't get why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. I mean the insults, the patronage and just the utter disdain for the average player. This guy is someone you want to make content for Blizzard? That's the kinda of customer you want to cater to?

[Deleted]

I do agree, but then we would need some official (because for me it could be winning a pvp pet battle, for you downing hc lei shen) statement or declaration from Blizz on what is meant to be hobby-level in this game? LFR?
I can still write a blog, or go for a run, or play golf without being professional in it. But in wow, what is the line between hobby and being professional? I would say: downing hc bosses pre-nerf is the line, but now I have the feeling even stepping into a normal raid is requiring professional (staying at the analogy) attitude. There is nothing wrong with this, but then stop hammering LFR for "stealing raiders"/being easy and what not.

I think you got the wrong impression from my statements. I'm not hammering LFR, for many it's the only way that they can "see the content" (using Blizzard's words). My point about LFR is that it doesn't promote improvement for those who want to/could potentially move into the normal raiding scene.

While Blizzard have made it clear that LFR is not meant to be an introduction to normal raiding many likely see it as such. It is, after all the "same" raid with the "same" encounters. Pre-LFR (taking vanilla, as an example) you didn't have to be clearing naxx40 to be considered a good raider because the progression model didn't allow the skipping of tiers. If you were clearing BWL and had a couple of AQ40 bosses under your belt then you were still raiding, still had relevant gear and a sense of achievement but also (potentially) a drive to do more and go further because you saw other guilds were doing it and knew it was possible.

LFR and other catchup mechanics are a necessity nowadays (WoW's target audience has evolved) and they've opened up content to a wider variety of people - at the end of the day, as a developer, you want as many people as possible to enjoy the fruits of your labor. My point is that LFR is a curse as well as a blessing, not promoting the improvement of skill level and giving those LFR raiders who want to move up to an organised raiding scene an unrealistic sense of how difficult the content is going to be.

Which is why I pointed out possible workarounds on page16 of this thread. I'm not some elitist. Those people who only have the time/inclination to raid using LFR do not spoil my enjoyment of the game but neither does the difficulty level of this tier's normal modes. Will I clear heroic before next tier? Hell no, and I'm fine with that.

[voxTree]

It's only tough because the raid is tough. You'd have an army of players if the raid was easier. I don't get why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. I mean the insults, the patronage and just the utter disdain for the average player. This is the people you want to make content for Blizzard?

Yes, the raid is tough when all of our DPS pull 120-140k+ on most fights and we have a straggler who caps out at 80k in 510 gear.

[Deleted]

We have attempted to train a few bad apples and they refused the help, fighting it tooth and nail.

I suspect that's because of the manner you provided said help in.

Most people are overly defensive about that stuff nowadays. Instead of admitting "yeah, I guess I'm not all that optimal", they blame lag, or an addon, or their dog. Much like many of the people who have replied to this thread. If you point out that they may not be doing as good as they could be, an endless stream of excuses usually follows.

Oh, I think you've read this wrong. There are some on here (GL is one from memory) who admit they are at the limit of what they can do. I know I am, playing wise. There is realistically nothing I can do to improve as far as getting more skill goes. No excuses.

It's tough recruiting people for progression who want a shiny title but refuse to learn how Ice Block works or read up on boss strategies. Again, nobody can fix laziness and ignorance. That's all on the player. Unfortunately, WoW has been so nerfed and watered down that the general audience has come to expect the nerfs.

How can you claim wow has been nerfed when the whole thread is about how difficult most people are finding it?

You are very good. Most people aren't. Most people never will be. Why not just accept it and move on?

[Trix]

I just checked, when ICC was a little over 3 months old, 60k guilds had killed the first boss on 10 man normal.

Since ToT 10 man is tuned a lot higher to be a proper raid difficulty, it looks like it is in the right place.

Lower player base and LFR is also a factor.

[Iso]

Bit early to cry foul.

Both DS and ICC became a fucking cakewalk with the 30% and 35% buff, they were also around for almost a fucking year! ToT has been around for a couple of months...

With item upgrades, people who struggle will slowly make their way past this and that. It's a good solution over the stacking buff system imo, allows character progression whilst gradually making content "easier".

[Deleted]

Bit early to cry foul.

Both DS and ICC became a fucking cakewalk with the 30% and 35% buff, they were also around for almost a fucking year! ToT has been around for a couple of months...

With item upgrades, people who struggle will slowly make their way past this and that. It's a good solution over the stacking buff system imo, allows character progression whilst gradually making content "easier".

That assumes they will return to the raid. I doubt it, after getting stuck on boss 2 and then stopping raiding entirely.

And that assumes they survived T14, which is by no means assured.

[Deleted]

The thing that baffles me here is the idea that the guilds struggling on this content are all "casual", rather than split between the casual and the awful.

As for your signature, Osmeric, you do realize, right, that raiding is the most accessible it has been at any point during WoW's history? Raiding content has always been developed for the elite. Most players were still dreaming of entering AQ 40 when Naxx was released. The main issue is the nerfing of previous content to prevent a progression pathway.

[Lukazor]

Great read, bored at work and this kept me entertained.

I'm sat in between, I like the current difficulty of normal's but hate it all at the same time. My guild is currently sat at 3/12 in ToT normal and I have no doubt we could get very far BUT that's with our absolute best possible group and unfortunately they can't raid all the time (we perhaps get our best group together once a week). The other players are just not able to put out the required DPS to progress in ToT, regardless of help, getting them to read class guides etc, they are just lesser skilled players. So on other nights if we can put a 10 man group together we'll get Jinrock down at the most and then have to revert back to a ToES clear or something...

NOW you might think well go find some more adept players, I'd love to, I've spent weeks trying to recruit DPS capable of raiding 2-3 times a week to progress through ToT, but I've had 0 responses from anyone. Trying to recruit for your normal guild is damn near impossible. ToT is just not forgiving and the difficulty of bosses early on in the instance doesn't give your normal run of the mill guild a chance.

[Glorious Leader]

Yes, the raid is tough when all of our DPS pull 120-140k+ on most fights and we have a straggler who caps out at 80k in 510 gear.

Yep but you need that guy or will eventually and their are more of him then their are of you out there. So guess what? The raid is to tough. Designing raid difficulty from the top down in mind is a failure. If one of your 120k players leaves and the raid (and player his or her class is easy) then it's not big deal to replace them. If he leaves and the raid is hard guess what happens? It's a big deal to replace him.

[Deleted]

The thing that baffles me here is the idea that the guilds struggling on this content are all "casual", rather than split between the casual and the awful.

As for your signature, Osmeric, you do realize, right, that raiding is the most accessible it has been at any point during WoW's history? Raiding content has always been developed for the elite. Most players were still dreaming of entering AQ 40 when Naxx was released. The main issue is the nerfing of previous content to prevent a progression pathway.

ICC and DS were both much more accessible. I'll not mention molten core "25 of you at the keyboard? Close enough! Gogo"

This assumes of course that LFR isn't a substitute for organised raiding.

As for progression path, that shit has never worked except to cause guild drama for most guilds as they play feeder to the top ones.

[Glorious Leader]

The thing that baffles me here is the idea that the guilds struggling on this content are all "casual", rather than split between the casual and the awful.

As for your signature, Osmeric, you do realize, right, that raiding is the most accessible it has been at any point during WoW's history? Raiding content has always been developed for the elite. Most players were still dreaming of entering AQ 40 when Naxx was released. The main issue is the nerfing of previous content to prevent a progression pathway.

Accesible in what terms? LFR is more accessible (although it isn't guild raiding or any kind of social raiding) and gear is more accessible (although not as accessible as in the recent past). In terms of difficulty no it's not. THey were dreaming of entering naxx and aq40 because nobody wanted to go back and get them gear not because the raid was difficult. They were dreaming of it because those raids were run by cliques who didn't like anybody new and thought everybody was a fucking scrub. They were dreaming of it because it wasn't very accessible DESPITE it's ease of difficulty.

[Iso]

That assumes they will return to the raid. I doubt it, after getting stuck on boss 2 and then stopping raiding entirely.

And that assumes they survived T14, which is by no means assured.

Fair point, but what's to say anything will bring 'em back, even lowered difficulty? I just think alot of people who usually do normals got their fix in LFR, and therefor didn't really feel the need to struggle to get normals going. When your only option is normal or nothing, you're more likely to shoot for normals, but with LFR in the picture you have another option.

[Glorious Leader]

Fair point, but what's to say anything will bring 'em back, even lowered difficulty? I just think alot of people who usually do normals got their fix in LFR, and therefor didn't really feel the need to struggle to get normals going. When your only option is normal or nothing, you're more likely to shoot for normals, but with LFR in the picture you have another option.

That's a good question. Short term I'm not sure it will. Long term potentially it will stop the bleeding. In the long term if normal raiding is more accessible in terms of difficulty people will form social bonds that keep them in the game or at least you hope they do. I got lucky and found a group of players I like and that's why I stuck with the game. That's the point of beer league. I met these guys in wotlk. If I met them in ToT probably wouldn't have stuck around. In the long term if normal raiding is more accessible from a difficulty perspective I think it's fair to say more people will try it. The more people try it the more bonds they make and the more they tell their friends and then their friends tell two friends and those friends tell friends and the community grows. This is also how people discover they are hardcore raiders incidentally (or used to) when they found that the normal mode was easy for them and they moved up. Now they just get crushed in normals and say fuck it.

[voxTree]

Yep but you need that guy or will eventually and their are more of him then their are of you out there.

Actually, we immediately replaced them with a friend of a friend who barely did more DPS due to a much lower ilevel, but DPSed the correct targets and didn't keel over dead, instead of running around like a chicken with their head cut off. That was enough to have a repeat Heroic Council kill.

The difference between the poor player and the replacement is that the replacement actively tried to improve themselves, rather than ignoring suggestions and target calls. If a player is looking to improve and eager to learn, I have absolutely no issue with them. Most people, that I've interacted with anyway, aren't like that anymore. One of our last recruits blamed low ilevel for low DPS. Well, his ilevel grew to match our other raiders, and guess what... he still did horrible DPS. Because he was barely using his level 90 talent(s), which are a substantial damage increase. This is the community WoW has now. Nerfing content won't make people use their talents/spells better.

[Deleted]

They were dreaming of it because those raids were run by cliques who didn't like anybody new and thought everybody was a fucking scrub. They were dreaming of it because it wasn't very accessible DESPITE it's ease of difficulty.

Although I agree with you to a certain extent, Naxx and AQ 40 were actually legit instances in terms of boss design and encounter difficulty. Your sweeping statement about "cliques" is just childish and quite pathetic.

LFR is raiding, at its most accessible. And look how shit it is.

[Nobleshield]

The "noise" comes from telling players to shape up or ship out. Guess what they'll chose to do. It's stops being circular once you realize that asking players to put in more effort than they are willing or even able to leads them to ship out instead.

Where do you draw the line though? If you've seen my posts here you'll see that I'm one of those who believe that the current raids are tuned too high, at least compared to DS (which I enjoyed a lot, YMMV) and ICC (which was my first real raid and I was a newbie then). But there still has to be SOME kind of incentive for people to play and improve. You can't make every boss a tank and spank with no mechanics so every Tom, Dick and Harry can clear it by just spamming one ability, but I think the current bosses are just TOO COMPLEX. There's way too may things going on at once to be aware of, and I think that has a large contribution to difficulty. My guild made about 10 attempts on normal Council last night; it was insane! Way too many abilities going off at once, way too many things to track, mostly because all four bosses were active at once. That's a fight that I think should have been done like Blood Princes or the Elemental Council in BoT: Only one (or two) of them are up at one time. All four is crazy and you're constantly moving, avoiding Kazra'jin, stacking or spreading for the frost stuff, watching for the loa spirit, moving out of Quicksand; it's too much going on at one time.

It's the complexity and tons of things to be aware of that IMO is hurting the most, not pure "difficulty". Even with Horridon, at its core it's a simple "boss with adds" fight. The problem is there are 4 different add phases, and each phase has different adds with different abilities, so it's not that simple when executed because there's too much going on at once; it's just a sea of mobs and tan/green/blue.

[dejaa]

Unfortunately, none of this is covered by LFR or normal mode raiding. Blizzard brought everyone into this during WotLK, then decided to design their entire endgame model around an extreme (and extremely vocal) minority of players who all wailed that "challenges are more fun".

Unfortunately, most of those players wailing either did not complete ICC in heroic mode or didn't turn off the buff in normal or heroic so of course it was "too easy" for some. Perhaps the real design error here was to have the buff the default instead of needing to talk to the appropriate npc to turn it on. What it did allow was for just about any player regardless of the quality of their internet connection or computer, or personal skill level to make some progress into the raid and see some personal improvements for their characters. (A lot of casual players may have absolutely no time or interest in improving their game play and in all honesty, it's their dime.) That's what this game is all about, right?

Currently, 10s are tuned too stringently and are far too unforgiving to be an entry level for new players, new raiders, or for strict casuals. LFR was added as a necessary entry level that 10s originally fulfilled but is far too easy and does not teach good raiding skills in the way it would need to in order to be a pipeline into normal raiding. Seems to me the original system of easier 10s and more challenging 25s were a better solution but it's not coming back. With a declining population and so many 25s having become 10s it would be a destructive change now.

Perhaps an entry level 10 on its own lockout with loot somewhere between LFR and normal would be in order. I think it's imperative that it have a non-shared lockout so it would be a good mechanism for more experienced players to be able to come along and help without jeopardizing their own normal/heroic runs.