League of Legends Lead Content Designer 'Morello' Scott talks about World of Warcraft

[Holtzmann]

Then guess what. They would run LFR once to see the content and then go and kill the dummy. Would you then still argue that the participants of "awesome target dummy raid" preceive their actions as 'fun'?

I have no idea. I personally found it fun the first few times, but got bored of it for the same reason I got bored of Normal raiding: repeating a rotation over and over does not entice me. I knew people who liked LFR because it was a fun way to see big numbers popping up and killing big things, and even getting gear out of it. But the people I knew are irrelevant, of course.

How do you know "most MMO players will take the effective path to gear and not the 'like' path", though?

Do you have any actual data on it or is it just the usual stereotype? Because I certainly don't and I'm fairly sure the only way to get even close to that sort of information would be to compare how many people doing Heroic raids are also doing LFR. And that's something only Blizzard can do.

[finskee]

How do you know "most MMO players will take the effective path to gear and not the 'like' path", though?

And why does it matter what they do... do what you want. What do you think is fun about wow? Do that. Let everyone decide for themselves, why create this conflict when it isn't even important? Do you find creating conflict fun?

[Grocalis]

And why does it matter what they do... do what you want. What do you think is fun about wow? Do that. Let everyone decide for themselves, why create this conflict when it isn't even important? Do you find creating conflict fun?

Exactly. The game would be a lot better if everyone simply did the content and difficulty suited for them rather then argue about it.

Actually... and this is going to sound crazy, but I long ago felt that Heroic Raids should have a iLevel scale-down similar to what Challenge Modes have now. If Heroic Raids are about the challenge, and people are so worried that they need LFR gear to compete, then tune down the bosses a bit, but force them to do it in an iLevel equivalent to the last normal tier. That means going into Heroic Mogushan would put you in an iLevel equivilent to blues. Done. No need for LFR gear since it won't increase you effectiveness over the easy to get gear, and it makes the whole thing more around skill then purples.

However, even I know doing that would KILL the entire thing, because only a fraction of people do raids for challenge, the rest do it for gear progression. This is why Challenge Modes themselves are so barren.

[KageKitsune28]

I think Morello touched on a lot of good points and I do agree with him for the most part. However, what I did not see mentioned (or maybe it was and I missed it) was WoWs lack of community. I am not talking about the number of players in the game, but rather how those players interact with each other. In Everquest, there was a general respect for your fellow player. You helped each other out, worked together, respected camps, etc. WoW had this is the beginning, but it has since deteriorated. To put it bluntly, people are A-holes to each other. You can't even ask a simple question in trade chat without being ridiculed. In my opinion, the addition of cross server zones has exacerbated this issue. To clarify, this goes beyond horde-alliance strife. Horde and alliance fighting is to be expected in a game with factions. However, when your fellow hordie or ally goes out of their way wipe a raid, or kill the mob you've been camping all day, that (to me) makes the game less fun.

Perhaps I am a bit naive, but I find it remarkable that at any given time we are playing with thousands of people around the world. We fight together, work towards similar goals, or maybe just hang out and talk. It gives me a sense of accomplishment and camaraderie when I can help a group or even a single person achieve something. However, WoW doesn't seem to have a system in place to deter against people screwing over others. You can report someone, but you never hear if your reporting did any good, and honestly I wonder if they even care sometimes. Maybe they need to take a page from League of Legends and implement a tribunal system of sorts. Really any thing to make the game feel like that amazing MMO game again and not a free-for-all-every-man-for-themselves battle would be great.

[Deleted]

How do you know "most MMO players will take the effective path to gear and not the 'like' path", though?

Many blizz reps have said multiple times that is exactly what all their data suggests. So idk that stereotype is backed up pretty well. But for the sake of your argument. No I can never know for sure.

Maybe people find grinding monkey in stormstout brewery to level just so entertaining they'd do it even if questing was much faster. Who knows, right?

And why does it matter what they do... do what you want. What do you think is fun about wow? Do that. Let everyone decide for themselves, why create this conflict when it isn't even important? Do you find creating conflict fun?

There is no 'conflict'. Blizzard makes the calls and the playerbase can comment if they think it was good or not. Their calls have various effects on the community such as the increasing trend of the WoW community becoming less social than ever before. This however does affect me and my gaming experience.

[finskee]

However, even I know doing that would KILL the entire thing, because only a fraction of people do raids for challenge, the rest do it for gear progression. This is why Challenge Modes themselves are so barren.

I don't know anyone who plays wow for gear, gear is secondary to character advancement and progression, which is why gear is important, it makes those 2 things easier. This carrot on the stick concept is for the weak minded as is the 'trick' of exclusive content creating an endless world. An endless world = more content in the next patch.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 09:27 AM ----------

There is no 'conflict'. Blizzard makes the calls and the playerbase can comment if they think it was good or not. Their calls have various effects on the community such as the increasing trend of the WoW community becoming less social than ever before. This however does affect me.

Again, I know this oversimplifies it but maybe you want to play a different game, like the lol dev states. Maybe wow is not for you. They create the game. You create a problem with how they create the game on forums like this. You could just go play something else. That is always your option. There are a lot of other games...

[Holtzmann]

Many blizz reps have said multiple times that is exactly what all their data suggests. So idk that stereotype is backed up pretty well. But for the sake of your argument. No I can never know for sure.

The Blues and Ghostcrawler say that when presented with an option most players will do one of two different things:
1- go for the easiest option,
2- take both options and reap both the rewards.

That's different from "most MMO players will take the effective path to gear and not the 'like' path". Why? Because for a lot of people the 'easy/effective' path is also the 'like' path. Or even the only path at all.

You're overlooking the fact that for a lot of people before LFR, organized raiding was not even an option. It required time and social commitments not everybody could or wanted to deal with. Now those people can get to a new level of gear, hooray for them. If hardcore folks feel mandated to run LFR for whatever reason, that's not the LFRers' problem to solve. That's about hardcore raiding and its culture.

[finskee]

I think Morello touched on a lot of good points and I do agree with him for the most part. However, what I did not see mentioned (or maybe it was and I missed it) was WoWs lack of community. I am not talking about the number of players in the game, but rather how those players interact with each other. In Everquest, there was a general respect for your fellow player. You helped each other out, worked together, respected camps, etc. WoW had this is the beginning, but it has since deteriorated. To put it bluntly, people are A-holes to each other. You can't even ask a simple question in trade chat without being ridiculed. In my opinion, the addition of cross server zones has exacerbated this issue. To clarify, this goes beyond horde-alliance strife. Horde and alliance fighting is to be expected in a game with factions. However, when your fellow hordie or ally goes out of their way wipe a raid, or kill the mob you've been camping all day, that (to me) makes the game less fun.

Perhaps I am a bit naive, but I find it remarkable that at any given time we are playing with thousands of people around the world. We fight together, work towards similar goals, or maybe just hang out and talk. It gives me a sense of accomplishment and camaraderie when I can help a group or even a single person achieve something. However, WoW doesn't seem to have a system in place to deter against people screwing over others. You can report someone, but you never hear if your reporting did any good, and honestly I wonder if they even care sometimes. Maybe they need to take a page from League of Legends and implement a tribunal system of sorts. Really any thing to make the game feel like that amazing MMO game again and not a free-for-all-every-man-for-themselves battle would be great.

Everquest had like 18 people playing it so, just fewer a-holes. Wow still has many ways to avoid the a-holes built in... leave /trade, join a guild of friends, ignore, etc. You DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY WITH A-HOLES. I don't.

[sizzlinsauce]

Eh, he makes a fair point but I still hate TBC simply because of attunements and pretty much anything that hindered alt playing. I don't think Raids should be exclusive, but I don't think we should have stuff nerfed because not-so-good players now have access. LFR should be to see content, not to gear alts (and mains with shit luck).

attunements meant that you didn't try to get into a raid you don't have the gear for.

[finskee]

You're basically telling people to ignore the MMO part of the game... like you do. And then people are amazed that people argue that WoW might be an MMORPG but it definately doesn't feel like one.

No I did not. You are going to get what you ask for it's not all about me or my post. Think about it... I said 'join a guild of friends' and 'leave /trade' that's what most GOOD players do.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 09:39 AM ----------

attunements meant that you didn't try to get into a raid you don't have the gear for.

No it did not it meant I had to spend 3 straight months in Shadow labs getting my guild keyed, we could have done kara in quest greens everyone will tell you that.

[Deleted]

I don't know anyone who plays wow for gear, gear is secondary to character advancement and progression, which is why gear is important, it makes those 2 things easier. This carrot on the stick concept is for the weak minded as is the 'trick' of exclusive content creating an endless world. An endless world = more content in the next patch.

But here we go again. How can there be character advancement and progression if you kill all content (that you decide to participate in) the first day it comes out. The only progress a player doing LFR can accomplish is in meta gaming (like doing well on meters). That is not sensible game design to me.

The main reason why Blizzard throtteled LFR in T14 and T15 is so they could create some kind of artificial progression.

Again, I know this oversimplifies it but maybe you want to play a different game, like the lol dev states. Maybe wow is not for you. They create the game. You create a problem with how they create the game on forums like this. You could just go play something else. That is always your option. There are a lot of other games...

Oh I like WoW. It is by far the game with the best, most refined and challenging Coop content out there. My problem is that in BC and WotLK I also enjoyed the server community and the general feel of the game. Nowadays I only enjoy the challenging content be that 10/25 (heroic raids), 5s (CMs) or solo (brawlers guild) and the company of the few friends and guildies I have left.

And yes I do blame LFR and LFD for destroying the community and that's why I complain. Everyone is selfish and I think I would enjoy WoW better if it was more of an MMO again like it used to be.

[sizzlinsauce]

morello kept it professional saying he wouldn't have made raiding a "you deserve to see it whether you're IQ10 and IQ 165" type of deal. then Ghostcrawler says "we can't take content away from players"

guess they both have different views. but i can disagree with ghostcrawler. How are you taking content away from someone if you are rightfully making it how it should have been? if you couldn't raid in vanilla or tbc, it was because you personally didn't have the right stuff.

[Spray]

I quite agree. The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

as it stands, you can see everything every raid has to offer with ease - "hard modes" are just the same thing for a more dedicated crowd. It's not the same. People get bored. People unsub. People think back to better times with better content (better because they didn't get to wear it out) and lose the inclination to keep playing.

Like it or not, on some primal level, people WANT a goal they can't reach. They WANT content they'll only ever be able to see by looking up videos and getting involved in the community. It vindicates their investment. And if they DO ever reach it, it's an actual accomplishment instead of just the same thing everyone else in the game is doing.

I couldn't express it better, kudos.

[KageKitsune28]

Everquest had like 18 people playing it so, just fewer a-holes. Wow still has many ways to avoid the a-holes built in... leave /trade, join a guild of friends, ignore, etc. You DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY WITH A-HOLES. I don't.

I actually do avoid trade chat and my guild consists only of real life friends and family members. It doesn't matter what kind of shield you try to hide behind, there is no escaping the trolls of WoW.....unless perhaps you fly to the very tip of Mount Neverest and stay there, but chances are they will find you and throw you off the mountain. :P

[Holtzmann]

I actually do avoid trade chat and my guild consists only of real life friends and family members. It doesn't matter what kind of shield you try to hide behind, there is no escaping the trolls of WoW.....unless perhaps you fly to the very tip of Mount Neverest and stay there, but chances are they will find you and throw you off the mountain. :P

There's no escaping trolls anywhere there's any sort of communication. That's why Hearthstone is not going to have any sort of chat, instead having only premade emotes.

[finskee]

The only progress a player doing LFR can accomplish is in

moving on to normal?

And yes I do blame LFR and LFD for destroying the community and that's why I complain. Everyone is selfish and I think I would enjoy WoW better if it was more of an MMO again like it used to be.

Well good luck getting everything you ever wanted. That's how this selfish self-justification works right? Ignore reality and choose grumpy and dispossessed?

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 10:00 AM ----------

The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

Actually that illusion is BS and anyone could see through it. It's called gating. All games do it to some degree, the ones that take it too far are painful.

---------- Post added 2013-06-10 at 10:02 AM ----------

I actually do avoid trade chat and my guild consists only of real life friends and family members. It doesn't matter what kind of shield you try to hide behind, there is no escaping the trolls of WoW.....unless perhaps you fly to the very tip of Mount Neverest and stay there, but chances are they will find you and throw you off the mountain. :P

But in your quote right there it says you play with friends so the concept that the other guy was talking about where he is constantly faced with a-holes is not an exageration? No one in wow is friendly just cause there's one troll in every crowd? That's how it is in RL and any game for god's sake that's not a problem exclusive to wow.

And on and on it goes... one QQ leads to another.... there will always be problems with the player base but why are you blaming it on blizzard? What other games control the a-holes and make them nice people? What's the next QQ you guys want to address?

[Deleted]

[...] You're overlooking the fact that for a lot of people before LFR, organized raiding was not even an option. It required time and social commitments not everybody could or wanted to deal with. Now those people can get to a new level of gear, hooray for them. If hardcore folks feel mandated to run LFR for whatever reason, that's not the LFRers' problem to solve. That's about hardcore raiding and its culture.

I simply disagree with this premise. Let's ignore low pop realms that Blizzard defends so much (a problem they should have fixed long ago) and focus on BC and Wrath on a medium, high or full realm.

There were always PuGs any part of the day. Especially in Wrath people pugged Naxx until ToC was out, then they pugged that or even ICC. You probably had more people doing regular raids back then than you have LFR raiders now.

Instead of tweaking a system that clearly worked they destroyed WoWs community from its roots with LFD and later LFR. Now there are no PuGs anymore and all other WoW players are just viewed as randoms. This promotes extremely poor manners.

It is not about having to run LFR (I don't). It is about what LFR and LFD have done to the community. At least with H scenarios and flex I feel like WoW is steering into a better direction again. One can only hope.

[finskee]

Let's ignore low pop realms that Blizzard defends so much.

Let's not. Let's say the target audience for LFD is people who have trouble putting a group together on their server because of low pop or late night or WHATEVER. That is why the majority of people see it as a solution to a problem in wow, not another problem with wow. If you don't like a Q, then you are free to avoid it, and so is your community. But apparently they aren't avoiding it or your community would be just fine right? So SOMEONE is using it, SOMEONE likes it... SOMEONE might disagree with you... and apparently some of those SOMEONE's are the people on your server and the wow developers so you're kind of outselfished on that one.

[Deathpony]

I strongly feel that LFR and LFD are a disservice to World of Warcraft and promote a childish instant-gratification mentality that is destructive to a stable MMO community. There are ways to make these types of implementations work to further enrich the game, but not how they currently exist.

In my firm opinion:
- LFR 25man should be removed from CURRENT content and only made available to previous tiers and expansions. All previous content, which would promote the lower level raiding dynamic and twink communities, which in return makes leveling less of a 'grind' and more of a series of experiences - including but not limited to, introductions to raiding to begin preparing new players for what awaits at max level/current content.
- LFR loot should be the current loot system, but loot should be freely trade-able between those attending, thus inspiring geared players to play with non-geared players and create a symbiotic relationship between the new and old.
- LFR loot should continue to be approx 20 ilvls below the normal raid ilvl, but have generic and bland 'skins/models', and not ever be upgradeable.
- Flex raiding should not be implemented, as it causes players to needlessly experience the same content multiple times, which previously met with horrible feedback during the Trial of the Grand Crusader period of Wrath of the Lich King. (People didn't like doing the same raid 3-4 times then, and now they don't even like doing it 2 times with LFR.)
- LFR in current expansion content should have a 10man option where the difficulty is increased to the point that basic fight mechanics cannot be blatantly ignored, as they are now. A PvE in-game Tutorial should be required to be taken and passed to queue for this level of LFR raiding in addition to an ilvl requirement. Gear should be 15 ilvls below normal raid ilvl, not be upgradeable, also carry a generic 'skin/model', and this LFR10 should have a raid ID that is shared with normal/heroic raid ID's - so you either do LFR10 that week, or the actual normal/heroic version, thus preventing redundancy or the requirement to do LFR's to gear for normals. Instead what we have is simply a new level of difficulty to help introduce new raiders to raiding while not overwhelming them, and providing that 4th level of difficulty Flex Raiding is attempting to provide. (Aka LFR10m ToT).
- The desire for 'cool looking gear' from raids, especially now in the transmorg era, cannot be understated and the primary reason why LFR related raids should have 'drab' and 'generic' looking models.


- LFD should continue to reward it's current level of VP but only half the current honor reward. Players physically traveling to a heroic instance, and completing it, should receive triple the current VP award, and double the current honor reward. These rewards would be available only once per day in the case of manually entering the dungeon. This would again help promote 'server groups' and server communities that have been decimated by the self serving nature of LFD's zero need to know people you're grouping with, especially from your own server.
- Heroic Dungeons that are completely manually and outside of LFD should have epic loot and gems similar to tBC-style heroics available in them, to once again inspire players to engage in it.
- Heroic Dungeons should follow the tBC heroic dungeon model with their loot and increasing difficulty instead of all being effectively even as they are now, and with boss mechanics that start preparing them for the first raiding tier of an expansion. When you down a especially hard heroic, you should see that mechanic in some form when you start raiding. These heroic dungeons need to have progression with them and rightly be preparing people for what is to come in subsequent raids.

[Sarevokcz]

morello kept it professional saying he wouldn't have made raiding a "you deserve to see it whether you're IQ10 and IQ 165" type of deal. then Ghostcrawler says "we can't take content away from players"

guess they both have different views. but i can disagree with ghostcrawler. How are you taking content away from someone if you are rightfully making it how it should have been? if you couldn't raid in vanilla or tbc, it was because you personally didn't have the right stuff.

Seriously, cosndiering what LoL is, If this morello guy would design MMORPG, it would likely cost you 1$ per boss per reset just to roll on gear, yet bosses would on LFR level of difficulty?. How the hell can a guy from a game, that is basically buy-to-win, give advices to subscriber based game?