Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[DrSteveBrule]

You say they lost 3 million with easy heroics. Again, that point is conjecture. That could be the smallest contributing factor out of hundreds. It might not be a factor at all! Easier heroics might have prevented the sub losses being 4 million. You have nothing to back such claims.

Then likewise it's conjecture to say we lost 300k subs in Cata because dungeons were too hard. But that's the general consensus among Blizzard and Nerf-mongers.
And that didn't stop Blizzard from baby-proofing everything afterwards.

So if it was reason enough to suck the soul out of raiding then I think equally it should follow that if the opposite didn't work you should rectify your mistakes.
But instead they don't know when to fold. Flexible raids are a great idea but not another MODE of raiding. It dilutes the meaning of doing upper difficulties, this is almost fact you saw it happen with LFR why the fuck are people going to bother putting in the dedication to see the same shit and a recolored item?

Raiders would be singing a different tune if they suddenly had to PVP to get what they want out of the game...

WTF does this have to do with the topic?
I for one wouldn't mind much since I love PvP. Giving players incentive to get GOOD is always a plus.
Take CoD for example. You kill and you die. You want to die less and kill more? Get good.

[nekobaka]

Raiders would be singing a different tune if they suddenly had to PVP to get what they want out of the game...

They used to for a bit. Blizzard didnt like it and has continued to make efforts against it. Gear from PVP was guaranteed and comparatively easy to obtain in comparison to raid gear even for the hard core progression guilds while being far more powerful than the badge gear of the time.

It dilutes the meaning of doing upper difficulties, this is almost fact you saw it happen with LFR why the fuck are people going to bother putting in the dedication to see the same shit and a recolored item?

GC has been slowly admitting this in at least the experience portion of it and is how Blizzard is trying to portray Flex modes at least for those who actually care about doing group based content instead of hitting a button and queuing with complete strangers that theyu will never see again.

[Osmeric]

The joke is getting old... it seems that wow always loses the majority of subs in china.

When they say "We lost 1.3 million subs, most of them in china" it could also mean they lost 425k in the USA 425k in Europe and 450k in China.

That's not what the world "majority" means (vs. "plurality").

[MathAddict]

Then likewise it's conjecture to say we lost 300k subs in Cata because dungeons were too hard. But that's the general consensus among Blizzard and Nerf-mongers.
And that didn't stop Blizzard from baby-proofing everything afterwards.

So if it was reason enough to suck the soul out of raiding then I think equally it should follow that if the opposite didn't work you should rectify your mistakes.
But instead they don't know when to fold. Flexible raids are a great idea but not another MODE of raiding. It dilutes the meaning of doing upper difficulties, this is almost fact you saw it happen with LFR why the fuck are people going to bother putting in the dedication to see the same shit and a recolored item?

WTF does this have to do with the topic?
I for one wouldn't mind much since I love PvP. Giving players incentive to get GOOD is always a plus.
Take CoD for example. You kill and you die. You want to die less and kill more? Get good.

My overall point is the issue is way more complex than easier/harder content. If it was such a simple fix, I am sure a company that answers to shareholders would fix the problem.

The entire argument is completely subjective. What you see as soul sucking to raiding is life breathing to another. There is no one great solution to solve problems for a game that has way too many subscribers for it's age. Blizzard did what it thought was best for the longevity of wow. As a game company, they are standing by LFR because the internal data, which none of us see, tells them to do so. It might not be what you want, but it's what some people want. Enough people like the feature to justify it's existence.

[Underwolf]

Those statements are all unprovable and don't hold ground in this argument.

Without an actual scientific study, you cannot say content difficulty did anything either way.

The game could have gained subs at a higher rate than it lost subs just because it was a newer game at the time. It could have peaked in popularity as the WC3 story arcs came to a close. There are so many compounding reason I can think of for subs to go up and go down. The simple fact is that if gaining/losing subs was just a simple answer as "content needs to be harder/easier" blizzard would have fixed the bleeding subs by now.

Some of them cannot be proved, I admit, such as at what rate the content philosophy of the time contributed to massive sub gains. However, I find it ludicrous that one may claim that the way Blizzard designed the game had no impact on their success but it was all due to some mysterious outside influences. I believe the way they designed the game had the biggest role in their success.

Moreover, some may claim that, the fact that sub numbers started to stagnate and then drop at a time (WotLK time) when Blizzard decided to radically change their design philosophy is a coincidence. There is no way to prove this mathematically either way. However, again, I find it ludicrous that there will not be any relation between the design philosophy of a game, which is basically the game's soul and heart and everything, and its' fortune in the form of sub gains and losses. And I find this kind of coincidence very hard to believe.

[Grocalis]

The joke is getting old... it seems that wow always loses the majority of subs in china.

It's not a joke. It's true.

China has always been the majority of subscriptions. However, over there they don't treat the game as a subscription game, it's more of a F2P model.

The reason the subs are dropping so heavily in that area comes down to two factors.

1) Competition is much higher. Any company can come out with a F2P MMO these days. Age of Wushu is one of the new popular ones based almost entirely on Chinese myth. Also F2P.

2) Most people that play don't have a personal computer, and instead go to special internet cafes that allow access to the games. The problem is that these cafes charge by the minute or hour. If you join a raid that takes hours, you are likely paying more then we are paying for a single day of gameplay. This is one of the reasons it uses a F2P system over there, because otherwise no one would play it at all combined with the cafe fees.

This is why, time and again, I have pointed out that the issue that caused MoPs decline was nothing to do with LFR, or Heroics, or Difficulty, or PVP, or Challenge Modes, or blah blah blah. The reason is that Blizzard, in an attempt to "give us more to do" as dragged out what can be done on a single character. Back in WOTLK, I could chain some heroics and in two hours have most of my T9 set done. In MoP, I can go a week without a single upgrade because LFR decides it hates me. Justice Points have been neutered, gear has been put behind a reputation wall, everything has either heavy RNG (heroic scenarios, LFR) or just drop stuff that is barely useful (Heroics, Justice Points)

Now imagine you are a guy in China, choosing to play WoW over all that new competition. You log on, attempt an LFR that turns into a three hour wipe fest. You now have to leave and pay money out of your pocket for accomplishing, in essence, nothing of worth. Likely, you will move to the game that does not make you feel that sting. WoW used to have this, but in the interest of making the game "harder" during Cataclysm they started the problem, and now through the dragging out of time they are continuing it.

The vast majority of people don't play for difficulty. They DON'T rise the occasion because they don't actually care about content being hard. They play because they want to relax and have a small goal they can take on in a short time. The devs instead felt that they could trade difficulty for time, and it's not working. Until the devs at Blizzard realize that and bring back convenience, the game will continue to decline.

Even the horse will get tired of the carrot if it never can get a nibble.

[brunnor]

You say they lost 3 million with easy heroics. Again, that point is conjecture. That could be the smallest contributing factor out of hundreds. It might not be a factor at all! Easier heroics might have prevented the sub losses being 4 million. You have nothing to back such claims.

I know that it was a factor for sure because I know of some people who have quit over a lack of progression outside of raiding. Faceroll heroics were in their list of problems. I know of no one who left when they were hard. So that is all the truth about it I know of. In the end, all you seem to do in this thread is say that things aren't the problem. What is the problem? What are the issues since you seem to know everything on the subject?

Why aren't you playing FF11? It's a FF game. You love those. So why aren't you playing it now? WoW is doing a better job of appealing to you? Who could have guessed.

---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 03:20 AM ----------

Q4 2010 only had Cataclysm right at the end. The full effect of Cataclysm would not have kicked in until Q1, when people had time to reach level cap and become unhappy, and had time for their subscription to lapse if they decided to quit. I was pretty fast getting to cap and getting ticked off, and my sub was good until Feb. 2011.

Cata only had hard heroics for 2 weeks after release. That means they were fixed before the quarter changed. The heroics were nice and easy by the time Jan rolled around.

[Ferocity]

Cata only had hard heroics for 2 weeks after release. That means they were fixed before the quarter changed. The heroics were nice and easy by the time Jan rolled around.

Cata was beginning of the end of normal raiding. 5-men were troublesome somewhat, but we had shared lockouts + guess what: overtuned normals. You had Omnotron on par with Illidari Council, you had Magmaw on whom you had to have frost DK or wipe endlessly, you had heavy use of "use DBM or don't raid" paradigm (move preemptively on timers, use cd preemptively on timers, etc.). I was lucky i was in great guild at that time, but I could clearly see how many problems t11 gave to people.

Now Blizzard repeats all same mistake. Sorry, but you can't make "MMO" part of game to be exclusive, and raids are basically that - the only MMO part of this game based on social interaction and the only way to progress your character. Sorry to say that, but game can do very well without heroic modes - they can be removed and only extremely small minority will suffer. But with overtuned arcade-based normal modes - expect community to dissipate. And people don't need any compromises like Flex (which for existing guilds will be more like a burden, 3rd lockout they must clear), they need Flex to be applied to toned down normal raids and functionate at 7+ people: that would be first step to rebuilding MMO element in game. Sorry to Arcade squad, but MMORPGs are based on different things than arcade "skills".

[MathAddict]

I know that it was a factor for sure because I know of some people who have quit over a lack of progression outside of raiding. Faceroll heroics were in their list of problems. I know of no one who left when they were hard. So that is all the truth about it I know of. In the end, all you seem to do in this thread is say that things aren't the problem. What is the problem? What are the issues since you seem to know everything on the subject?

I am trying to shed light on the fact that things are not black and white. These design "problems" as many might call them have been made not by just one person, but by an entire team of people. Those people made game design choices based off of internal data we never get to see. People need to pull the heads out of their asses and lighten up. You know what would happen tomorrow if all the wow servers got wiped? Nothing, the world would keep on turning and a few years later no one would care about the game that used to be world of warcraft.

What do I think the problem is? The over invested player is the problem. People who put too much into the game, regardless of their skill/content level, become "protective" of their "legacy." Protective video game warriors are the real problem at the heart of the LFR debate. People who derive too much life fulfillment from a game start to care too much about what the next guy has. It's a natural response, but in the context of make-believe video game land, the response is childish. LFR would not be such a huge issue if people did not care how they compared to the next player. Look at many world first heroic raiders, many have said before that they don't care about LFR. They know they are the best raiders in the game, they take satisfaction from their own accomplishments rather than needing to step on others to feel big.

"But LFR is killing the game!"

No non-blizzard employee can say that with certainty. You can wrap up a bullshit sandwich how ever you like, it's still gonna be a bullshit sandwich. Why is the game losing subscriptions? Who knows! Any guess could be right, but lets stop pretending like we all know what the problem is. All we can do is speculate. Either way, I don't care because I enjoy my time in imaginary pretend video game land regardless of how many people play. If I am enjoying the game with friends, that is all I care about. The game is going to be ten years old soon. Surely you did not expect wow to have 10 million + subscribers for ever did you? I sure don't expect them too. I am actually surprised wow subs made it as far as they did.

My second point:
Things change, always! Can't cope with the change? Is wow forever not fun now? Please unsub and find some other source of enjoyment. I am not trying to be facetious. Life is too short to be worried about feeling epic and challenged in a video game. Find a game that can bring you some enjoyment. Wow is just a game after all. Years down the road, no one will ever care what you did and who you were in azeroth. That's why personal enjoyment is so important and if you are not enjoying the game anymore, find one that you do enjoy.

Why aren't you playing FF11? It's a
FF game. You love those. So why aren't you playing it now? WoW is doing a better job of appealing to you? Who could have guessed.

If it so important for you to know, I graduated high school and could not afford the time to play games while going to college. I went back one day and the game was dead. Being a game that is impossible to solo anything at max level, I left a second time after having little success of joining a productive linkshell.

Cata only had hard heroics for 2 weeks after release. That means they were fixed before the quarter changed. The heroics were nice and easy by the time Jan rolled around.

This is the only reason I even started posting in this thread, people waving around "statistics" and "facts" that are simply unsupported or untrue. What a steaming pile of horse crap. Heroics were difficult way past December. Cata launched mid December, most of the wow team goes MIA for the holidays and come back in January. There is no way they had the man power or capacity to nerf all the heroics. Heroic nerfs did not come til after the 1st tier in cata. Even the zandalari heroics were a pain. I lost count of how many times I queued into dungeons in progress because groups fell apart.

That statement literally came out of your bunghole sir. Show us patch notes detailing numerous nerfs to all cata heroics dated two weeks after launch. Go check, blizz keeps a record of all patch notes. Post the link. Back up your statement. Please! I am very curious to see what you produce seeing as most player were barely hitting the level cap within the first few weeks.

[Phasma]

I think the phrase "The journey is more important than the destination" is the best mindset for players to have. Unfortunately, a lot of players seem to think completing content is more fun than the content itself. Yeah, completing content may be fun the first couple of times, but just like cheating in a game, it becomes super boring after doing it over and over without some sort of challenge.

I think unreachable goals (exclusive content) should be in the game. It keeps people like me entertained. However, the way Blizzard is accomplishing that in WoW right now is with boring filler content. They are creating quantity instead of quality (e.g. dailies, valor caps, legendary quests, etc.). It's like running on a treadmill and keeping time. Whoever runs the longest, wins! It's not fun at all to a lot of people. It's like old school arcade games that keep high scores. It's such an archaic design philosophy. Hello? It's 2013. There has to be a better way.

[Florena]

I think the phrase "The journey is more important than the destination" is the best mindset for players to have. Unfortunately, a lot of players seem to think completing content is more fun than the content itself. Yeah, completing content may be fun the first couple of times, but just like cheating in a game, it becomes super boring after doing it over and over without some sort of challenge.

I think unreachable goals (exclusive content) should be in the game. It keeps people like me entertained. However, the way Blizzard is accomplishing that in WoW right now is with boring filler content. They are creating quantity instead of quality (e.g. dailies, valor caps, legendary quests, etc.). It's like running on a treadmill and keeping time. Whoever goes the longest wins! It's not fun at all. There has to be a better way.

I don't mind exclusive cosmetic rewards, or the occasional heroic only boss like Ra-den, but the problem is that raids are critically important to the story of WoW. Not just that, they're usually the conclusions of storylines built up through questing and five mans. And so, I'm against only heroic raiders getting to see the end of those storylines. Thinks like Sinestra and Ra-den, okay fine, but I have no problem with casuals seeing Lei-Shen or the Lich King to see how the storylines they've been playing through end.

[aGit]

nothing in this game is exclusive, the title is misleading.

[Dreknar20]

nothing in this game is exclusive, the title is misleading.

Yes, people seem to have a vague definition of what exclusive is
All content anywhere in WoW is just as easily avaliable by anyone anywhere, certain players to not have secret passcodes or tickets that let them do things others cannot

[Phasma]

I don't mind exclusive cosmetic rewards, or the occasional heroic only boss like Ra-den, but the problem is that raids are critically important to the story of WoW. Not just that, they're usually the conclusions of storylines built up through questing and five mans. And so, I'm against only heroic raiders getting to see the end of those storylines. Thinks like Sinestra and Ra-den, okay fine, but I have no problem with casuals seeing Lei-Shen or the Lich King to see how the storylines they've been playing through end.

Why couldn't they have something like Ulduar where when a raid group defeats Algalon, the entire server has the opportunity to see the end result? I think they could extend that a bit, even, with a spectator mode for raids. That would still be exciting to people that couldn't defeat Algalon, would it not? Also, why not complete the content after it's irrelevant for story purposes? I don't understand it at all.

[Grocalis]

That would still be exciting to people that couldn't defeat Algalon, would it not?

If I wanted that, I would just go to youtube. Part of the fun is taking part in the story event. Difficulty is irrelevant.

[Florena]

Why couldn't they have something like Ulduar where when a raid group defeats Algalon, the entire server has the opportunity to see the end result? I think they could extend that a bit, even, with a spectator mode for raids. That would still be exciting to people that couldn't defeat Algalon, would it not? Also, why not complete the content after it's irrelevant for story purposes? I don't understand it at all.

Sure, you can see the end....if you happen to be online when it happens. As it stands though, I'm fine with Algalon being a heroic only thing, because he's a side story you only get into as a heroic raider doing the heroic fights to unlock those quests. If Yogg-Saron was heroic only after all the build up through Northrend, that would make me mad.

I don't mind stuff like Algalon, Sinestra and Ra-den because, while they are important lore figures, they're not part of the main storyline, they're secret bosses that have to do with the backstory, such as creating the first twilight dragons, being the source of Lei Shen's power, etc. But I don't think the main storylines should be resolved within exclusive content.

[Phasma]

If I wanted that, I would just go to youtube. Part of the fun is taking part in the story event. Difficulty is irrelevant.

Correct. I just don't understand why people think they are entitled to see content for not trying. How is that fun at all? If you want story, read a book. A video game is suppose to have obstacles. That's part of the fun.

[Frogged]

Because it's like saying "Here's a book, but we'll only let 5% of people see the last chapter."

Or at least, it was.

Eh. More like "Here's a book. Anyone can read it to see the last chapter, but you have to actually read it."

In this analogy, LFR is the equivalent of book companies publishing 'LFBooks' that only have the last page printed for people who don't have the time to read the book to experience it. The irony being that they could have just flipped to the last page of a normal book if they wanted, via YouTube.

[Florena]

Correct. I just don't understand why people think they are entitled to see content for not trying. How is that fun at all? If you want story, read a book. A video game is suppose to have obstacles. That's part of the fun.

And you get those obstacles in heroic mode if you're after the challenge. Like it or not, story is a fairly big part of at least some video games these days. I do think that LFR is too easy for the level of loot it gives, but I have no problem with what flex raid is sounding like, a step between faceroll lfr and normal modes.

This is no longer the era of video game stories being an excuse to jump on turtles and do some platforming, and while I think that perhaps more effort should be required than LFR maybe to see the end of these stories, still on the fence about that for the case of players who don't have the time to raid as I think even the most casual of players should get to see the whole story at some point, I think that a step up from lfr and below normal is perfectly acceptable difficulty wise to see the content and the story, sans the occasional heroic only boss. WoW's story may not be the best video game story out there, but it does have a lot of followers and is interesting enough that it keeps people like me paying attention.

[Theendgamelv3]

If something is exclusive to 1% and it is major content, I would rather spend it on fixing up other parts of the game and making a game experience better for me. Is this selfish, yea it is, but the people who want big content to themselves are also selfish. Basically we're all selfish people lol.