The 5.4 Shaman Thread

[Deleted]

The problem is that totems are just a very strange gameplay mechanic. They're cooldowns, but they're cooldowns that can potentially boost your HPS and DPS to very high levels, so everything has to be tightly controlled. That in turn stifles creativity, and we're seeing that in the totem tier.

Best bet is to make CoE and Projection baseline, and just go with a GW tier. That will give Blizzard the freedom to actually make some interesting talents.

Why can't I thumbs up posts?

This is how I feel aswell, Totem buffs either go to far in one or the other direction and we see that with each change to this tier. Best would be to scrap it entirely although I would feel weird not having a talent tier dedicated to a core shaman mechanic but quite frankly this tier has been nothing but absolutely awful.

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No one was arguing to get the fire totems removed, people just pointed out that one of the tier talents gives a dps increase and 2 don't even if that dps increase is 0.001% over a fight it was a change that would be reverted. No one qqed or asked blizzard to change it back, they just knew it would be changed.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...63446659334144

It has been blizzards m. o. for this entire expansion some people just don't seem to have realized this fact.

[nazrakin]

Why people are discussing only about DPS? Our class has the 3rd specialization, and this tier directly affect their HPS. So, if it is such a huge problem to have one of those talents, in some situations, increase DPS, why should we stop there? Why not have whole tier 'agnostic' to either DPS&HPS, so it will be real utility tier?

Let's check it:

1. CoTE - not doing anything for DPS, but resets HST (zomg) and increase HPS -> lets all of us campain at Blizzard to remove HST from CoTE.

2. TProjection - increasing DPS in some cases (projecting searing/magma and stormlash), increasing HPS (projecting HST and HTT) -> wtf, Blizzard really needs to remove those from TP.

3. TPersistence - increasing HPS (can overlap HTT/HST/MTT) -> remove all water totems from it plz.

After those changes everyone will be happy to have real utility tier, which won't bloat our 'sacred' dps or hps.

Yeah, it will be utter garbage, but hey, it's pure utility and that's what counts.

People are only discussing DPS because that is where the balancing issue lies.

[Tiberria]

Why people are discussing only about DPS? Our class has the 3rd specialization, and this tier directly affect their HPS. So, if it is such a huge problem to have one of those talents, in some situations, increase DPS, why should we stop there? Why not have whole tier 'agnostic' to either DPS&HPS, so it will be real utility tier?

Let's check it:

1. CoTE - not doing anything for DPS, but resets HST (zomg) and increase HPS -> lets all of us campain at Blizzard to remove HST from CoTE.

2. TProjection - increasing DPS in some cases (projecting searing/magma and stormlash), increasing HPS (projecting HST and HTT) -> wtf, Blizzard really needs to remove those from TP.

3. TPersistence - increasing HPS (can overlap HTT/HST/MTT) -> remove all water totems from it plz.

After those changes everyone will be happy to have real utility tier, which won't bloat our 'sacred' dps or hps.

Yeah, it will be utter garbage, but hey, it's pure utility and that's what counts.

The tier is actually reasonably balanced for Resto, even though I still think the entire tier sucks/is too inconsequential to warrant a talent tier.

1. CoTE - best throughput talent if you are able to perfectly line up MTT/HTT during the 15 second dead windows of HST uptime.
2. Totemic Persistance - Will often beat CoTE in real raid situations or if you aren't able to perfectly line up MTT/HTT. Also much easier to use effectively.
3. Projection - ability to directionally place SLT (as well as move MTT/Stormlash/HTT in range of more of the raid) without having to waste a lot of movement time outweighs the throughput gains on a lot of fights.

Each of the talents has value/makes sense for Resto. For DPS specs on the other hand, the entire tier is a complete design disaster.

[Deleted]

Yeah, it will be utter garbage, but hey, it's pure utility and that's what counts.

Other classes have utility tiers, but none of them sucks as hard as ours.

That's the point. It's okay to make a "totem tier", but by no means, it should be that bad as it currently is.

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Each of the talents has value/makes sense for Resto. For DPS specs on the other hand, the entire tier is a complete design disaster.

Totally true. Only situational for PVP, very bad for PVE.

[bladisha]

No one was arguing to get the fire totems removed, people just pointed out that one of the tier talents gives a dps increase and 2 don't even if that dps increase is 0.001% over a fight it was a change that would be reverted. No one qqed or asked blizzard to change it back, they just knew it would be changed.

Ok, so we can tell totem tier is not exclusively 'utility' tier, cause every talent increase HPS and at least one (projection) can be used to increase DPS. So, what now? Should fire totems will be left out of totemic projection as well? Granted, projection might give you lower DPS than persistence with fire totems included, but still, DPS gain is there?

People are only discussing DPS because that is where the balancing issue lies.

Good. This implies projection should have such limit as well, with added stormlash. After all, it might give you DPS boost (and might not), same as persistence with fire totems turned on.

And about GC reply - once again he missed straight facts; it's not the only talent which can give dps boost, nor such small DPS increase is always preferable over utility (ie - using projection with capacitor or with earthgrab/earthbind to root/slow/stun group of mobs during the fight could be much better choice than to have 0.X % higher DPS).

[Cakala]

I may get blasted for this, but I will miss the old talent.
Situationaly ( Lei Shen normal progression and others ) I would drop Stone Bulwark Totem and cancel it.
This would give me a good sized shield on a 30 second CD.
This absorb was good enough for 8% of the effective healing done on me during Lei Shen progression ( 10 man ).

I wish the parses were still active for me to provide links.

[Teriz]

Tier 2 is actually the opposite, with wwt being the odd ball out. FP and EGT take mobility from the enemy, instead of giving you mobility. There is to say, the howl I suggested would require a new 3rd talent in the 2nd tier, as they'd be to similar.

They should bring back Repulsion totem.

[Jacob6875]

Yay for ghostcrawler missing the point completely. It was changed to not include fire totems bc every dps shaman would take it but now every dps shaman is going to take projection because it gives a dps increase by still allowing us to put stormlash in the middle of the raid. (not to mention healing tide next patch)

So instead of having 2 viable talents for dps we are going back to a tier where except for 1 or 2 gimmick fights a tier everyone is going to take projection.

[Endus]

Yay for ghostcrawler missing the point completely. It was changed to not include fire totems bc every dps shaman would take it but now every dps shaman is going to take projection because it gives a dps increase by still allowing us to put stormlash in the middle of the raid. (not to mention healing tide next patch)

TP is not a DPS increase. It is a QOL convenience. You and you raid could ensure positioning worked out for that totem, without you having to use Projection; we did this all the time when Totemic Projection didn't exist.

It's only a DPS/HPS increase if you can't move to that position. And barring really punitive boss abilities that prevent movement, that's almost always not the case.

TP saves you moving, and moving isn't necessarily a DPS/HPS loss, meaning the use of TP isn't in any way a gain.

[Angrysteel]

TP saves you moving, and moving isn't necessarily a DPS/HPS loss, meaning the use of TP isn't in any way a gain.

Isnt run speed to boots largely considered one of the best dps gains you could possibly get? So an extremely minor gain to run speed is a dps gain, but not having to run 40 yards isnt a dps gain? What?

So you would be ok with running into melee range of Jin'rokh as a ranged dps, and risking getting slammed in the face with Focused Lightning and 1 shotting your raid? Or running up to Horridon to drop your totem and getting an unlucky Direhorn Spirit that instantly 1 shots you for being in melee range? Or walking into melee range on Council and getting a Shadow Spirit dropped on you?

Thats just the first 3 bosses.... lets keep going. Good luck chasing Nether Wyms around on Megaera, dodging fire, frost and getting in melee-ish range just to drop that magma, only to be targeted by a Torrent of Ice and kill your friends. Ji-kun... grats, you just killed the melee because you were targeted with Caw. Iron Qon... oh damn, you just infested the melee with Arcing Lightning, your bad. Twins? Why is all the melee dead i was just placing my totem... oh Ice Comet. Ok, you get the point, but im sure you knew this all.

Sure some of these abilities can be timed properly with the use of boss mods, but not everyone uses those. So ya, with excellent timing (running 40 yards in while hardcasting lava burst and elemental blast), boss mods, some luck, and pretty much perfect play, you can say TP might not be a dps gain for you. But it most definitely is a dps gain for your average shaman not willing to jump through 20 hoops.

[Nebria]

some more conversation about ele pvp in 5.4

Markus ‏@Markus1422 27 Jul
@holinka Kinda worried theres not been any ele, resto druid, disc or hunter changes recently, you don't think they're fine do you?

Holinka ‏@holinka 27 Jul
@Markus1422 Hunters have significant changes for 5.4. Ele can be fixed with LvB tuning in the case Fulmination change doesn't work.

Markus ‏@Markus1422 27 Jul
@holinka Worried about arcane shot damage, it's high on PTR. Fulmination doens't fix a lot, its not used often enough, LVB changes are wnted

Holinka ‏@holinka 27 Jul
@Markus1422 Fulmination+Earth Shock frequently hits for more than Lava Burst. It's how the damage really gets poured on.

Markus ‏@Markus1422 27 Jul
@holinka Yes but the random RNG burst doens't come from fulmination it's from Lava surge procs, you mentioned a fix to it with flame shock

Holinka ‏@holinka 27 Jul
@Markus1422 This is the core part of playing elemental

I guess the fulmination change could be the change of the set bonus. so that you can't use it that often anymore and sit on your stacks.
and it is nice to see that lave surge seems not be an issue for them.

[Jotaux]

So you would be ok with running into melee range of Jin'rokh as a ranged dps, and risking getting slammed in the face with Focused Lightning and 1 shotting your raid? Or running up to Horridon to drop your totem and getting an unlucky Direhorn Spirit that instantly 1 shots you for being in melee range? Or walking into melee range on Council and getting a Shadow Spirit dropped on you?

Thats just the first 3 bosses.... lets keep going. Good luck chasing Nether Wyms around on Megaera, dodging fire, frost and getting in melee-ish range just to drop that magma, only to be targeted by a Torrent of Ice and kill your friends. Ji-kun... grats, you just killed the melee because you were targeted with Caw. Iron Qon... oh damn, you just infested the melee with Arcing Lightning, your bad. Twins? Why is all the melee dead i was just placing my totem... oh Ice Comet. Ok, you get the point, but im sure you knew this all.
.

For Jin'rok our entire raid is sitting on his ass in the first puddle, no one has issues running out. On horridon our guild tanks him close enough to the raid my magma totem can hit him. Shadow spirit is on a timer, you can easily tell when its going to come out. On Megaera the Nether wyrms die so fast you only really have time for Chain lightning, projection really shines on this boss when used with capacitor totem though. Caw is on a timer, you can tell when its coming out. I'll give you Iron Qon. All the mechanics on Twins are predictable enough to know when its okay to run in. So situational at best. Yeah not everyone has timers and yeah it requires better play but that is what sepparates a mediocre Shaman from a great Shaman.

[Sarevokcz]

For Jin'rok our entire raid is sitting on his ass in the first puddle, no one has issues running out. On horridon our guild tanks him close enough to the raid my magma totem can hit him. Shadow spirit is on a timer, you can easily tell when its going to come out. On Megaera the Nether wyrms die so fast you only really have time for Chain lightning, projection really shines on this boss when used with capacitor totem though. Caw is on a timer, you can tell when its coming out. I'll give you Iron Qon. All the mechanics on Twins are predictable enough to know when its okay to run in. So situational at best. Yeah not everyone has timers and yeah it requires better play but that is what sepparates a mediocre Shaman from a great Shaman.

on all those bosses, TP gives way better utility than measily magma would do.

Jinrokh - magma isnt even worth it, as in puddles it doesnt get bonus dmg and your average LB will be way better (and TPing HTT in storms is pretty good too, if you have it), maybe for enha who has free GCD here and there

Horridon - having EG/capacitor with TP can be pretty handy + there are lot of punishing abilities if you are at melee and its not worth it anyway, as you are CLing adds most of the time, also the "use searing to kick FlSd dino far away" would be huge dps loss without TP if you had to run half the room before you could drop it

Meg - you cant even afford to run into melee as torrent of ice would completely screw up your room, and TP is godsend here anyway. And DBM timers arent working on Meg for months now, not sure about bigwigs, never used it, so you cant even predict when is torrent gonna be cast

Jikun, unless you are dedicated stacker, you can project fire totem from under boss to nest you are doing or the other way without the need to recast them every 30 seconds and if you are dedicated stacker, then again, totems dont gain buff from the Well Fed and your regular average Joe LB will be better spent GCD

Twins - you dont aoe the adds as it gives tank vengeance dmg in first phase, the boss is constanly repositioned in second and third phases and only real benefit would be 4th phase. TP saves you the headache of positioning Stormlash properly, which is, like all other bosses where raid is spread around alot, a godsend for both dps specs

And your theories about exceptional positioning are all assuming you can have perfect movement dps at given time, which 1, disqualifies EB completely, 2. is something you cant really predict anyway, sometimes your LvB CD just doesnt line up properly and you get no surges. And of course the difference between magma dmg over a minute and one LB for elemental is so pitiful its not even worth mentioning or worth the hassle of running into melee every time I would want to recast it.

All this theoretical mumbo jumbo about magma being dps valid increase works on paper, but not in the actual raiding, the only real benefit would be searing + FE together and even that would have troubles to be picked up for most bosses.

And really, even if it was marginal dps increase, so what? TP is too if used properly, tho mostly indirectly, but more importantly, CotE has been increasing resto hps the whole expansion, even tho its not a healing tier either (and surprise surprise, lot fo shaman dont even pick it up, as TPing SLT and other stuff is quite handy), any argument for Persistence to exclude fire should exclude water from both CotE and Persistence

[Tiberria]

TP is not a DPS increase. It is a QOL convenience. You and you raid could ensure positioning worked out for that totem, without you having to use Projection; we did this all the time when Totemic Projection didn't exist.

It's only a DPS/HPS increase if you can't move to that position. And barring really punitive boss abilities that prevent movement, that's almost always not the case.

TP saves you moving, and moving isn't necessarily a DPS/HPS loss, meaning the use of TP isn't in any way a gain.

But there is no reason to bother with adjusting position around that totem because there is no oppportunity cost loss in taking Totemic Projection, because none of the other talents provide DPS increases in any way, so there is no incentive for anyone to want to take one of the other talents or design raid strategy around totem positioning, making TP an effective DPS increase.

[Raiju]

TP is not a DPS increase. It is a QOL convenience. You and you raid could ensure positioning worked out for that totem, without you having to use Projection; we did this all the time when Totemic Projection didn't exist.

It's only a DPS/HPS increase if you can't move to that position. And barring really punitive boss abilities that prevent movement, that's almost always not the case.

TP saves you moving, and moving isn't necessarily a DPS/HPS loss, meaning the use of TP isn't in any way a gain.

This isn't simcraft. There are fights where you CANNOT do the above. Some have been mentioned. As enhance I'll mention primordius (at least before you're farming it nuking it in the middle of the room). Lei shen if you aren't getting perfect minute intervals (hint: with non minimum dps you usually won't), and twins.

These bosses just don't stay within 25yards of a totem the entire fight, or have down periods where you can replace. Even horridon as enha is a bit iffy but I am not 100% on timings to say it counts.

As others have mentioned, speed increases are almost always dps increases because they usually let you start dpsing sooner and overall get more attacks off in a fight. The gain from TP can be much larger from that.

Add this onto stormlash where (I raid 10man personally but...) for 25man "position better" just isn't a valid argument. There are fights where you need to spread and to make full use off this totem, TP is perfect. That 1mill+ gain for the other half of your raid group getting the buff is bigger than the 300k that searing fire ele gave.

[Endus]

Isnt run speed to boots largely considered one of the best dps gains you could possibly get?

Not exactly, and it depends on your spec. Movement speed is more desirable because it means you move faster. This means you have better reactions to boss effects, getting out of danger zones, so you can start DPSing at full speed again. These kinds of issues do not occur on your schedule, meaning they could pop up at the "wrong" times in your rotation, when you don't have instants available to use, or forcing a long enough movement in a short enough time period that you can't move a bit at a time as you can fit it into GCDs and such. You need to get out ASAP, and movement speed helps with that, letting you recommence DPS as soon as possible.

What we're talking about here are the timings on things like raid cooldowns, which are on your schedule for the most part. You're planning when to use them, and can generally take your time moving into position beforehand, rather than having to run there full-tilt. If you need to stop to hard-cast Lava Burst, you can, where if you're running out of boss AoE, you pretty much can't. Movement speed isn't a contributer to DPS, in this case, because this kind of movement isn't a DPS loss in the first place.

It's apples and oranges.

So you would be ok with running into melee range of Jin'rokh as a ranged dps, and risking getting slammed in the face with Focused Lightning and 1 shotting your raid? Or running up to Horridon to drop your totem and getting an unlucky Direhorn Spirit that instantly 1 shots you for being in melee range? Or walking into melee range on Council and getting a Shadow Spirit dropped on you?

There will obviously be fights where TP is advantageous. However, the question is if it is more advantageous on most of those fights than the new talent. Not all of your options, there, are unavoidable, either. It will absolutely be harder to get by without TP, since it has a clear convenience factor, the question is whether it's feasible to get by without it.

Sure some of these abilities can be timed properly with the use of boss mods, but not everyone uses those. So ya, with excellent timing (running 40 yards in while hardcasting lava burst and elemental blast), boss mods, some luck, and pretty much perfect play, you can say TP might not be a dps gain for you. But it most definitely is a dps gain for your average shaman not willing to jump through 20 hoops.

There's a reason a lot of guilds mandate the use of boss timers. I don't accept willful ignorance as a reasonable counter-argument. Yes, for Shaman who refuse to use boss timers, it's likely more complicated, but those Shaman players aren't trying to optimize their gameplay and aren't really the people we're talking about in the first place.

[Tiberria]

It will be more advantageous than the new talent with the new talent not having fire totems affected by it, because what combinations would Totemic Persistance realistically be useful for DPS?

Air Totems - Stormlash is the only commonly used PvE totem. Capacitor, Windwalk, etc are very situational and not used at all on 95% of fights.

Water Totems - HTT will be used, but HST is such weak output for DPS specs that it's rarely worth the GCD unless your healers are terrible or there is nothing to DPS (like Lei Shen transitions). Next to no value in having HST/HTT up at once for a DPS.

Earth Totems - Earth Elemental/Stone Bulwark I guess, but taking SBT over Astral Shift is a relatively large personal DPS loss. Tremor Totem is useful on 1-2 fights this entire expansion

I just can't see any reasonable use for this talent as DPS over Totemic Projection that isn't a completely situational use. Without Fire Totems on that talent, it is useless for DPS 95% of the time.

[Nebria]

It will be more advantageous than the new talent with the new talent not having fire totems affected by it, because what combinations would Totemic Persistance realistically be useful for DPS?

Air Totems - Stormlash is the only commonly used PvE totem. Capacitor, Windwalk, etc are very situational and not used at all on 95% of fights.

Water Totems - HTT will be used, but HST is such weak output for DPS specs that it's rarely worth the GCD unless your healers are terrible or there is nothing to DPS (like Lei Shen transitions). Next to no value in having HST/HTT up at once for a DPS.

Earth Totems - Earth Elemental/Stone Bulwark I guess, but taking SBT over Astral Shift is a relatively large personal DPS loss. Tremor Totem is useful on 1-2 fights this entire expansion

I just can't see any reasonable use for this talent as DPS over Totemic Projection that isn't a completely situational use. Without Fire Totems on that talent, it is useless for DPS 95% of the time.

on water you forget that you can glyph hst where the healed player gets a buff to reduce elemental damage.

I find it amusing how much value you give in losing dps when using bulwark instead of astral shift. is one gcd that important? you forget why you set bulwark. to reduce the damage you get. so you shouldn't compare bulwark with astral shift with the gcd in mind only. I use what makes more sense in terms of I need to reduce incoming damage

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Isnt run speed to boots largely considered one of the best dps gains you could possibly get? So an extremely minor gain to run speed is a dps gain, but not having to run 40 yards isnt a dps gain? What?

So you would be ok with running into melee range of Jin'rokh as a ranged dps, and risking getting slammed in the face with Focused Lightning and 1 shotting your raid? Or running up to Horridon to drop your totem and getting an unlucky Direhorn Spirit that instantly 1 shots you for being in melee range? Or walking into melee range on Council and getting a Shadow Spirit dropped on you?

Thats just the first 3 bosses.... lets keep going. Good luck chasing Nether Wyms around on Megaera, dodging fire, frost and getting in melee-ish range just to drop that magma, only to be targeted by a Torrent of Ice and kill your friends. Ji-kun... grats, you just killed the melee because you were targeted with Caw. Iron Qon... oh damn, you just infested the melee with Arcing Lightning, your bad. Twins? Why is all the melee dead i was just placing my totem... oh Ice Comet. Ok, you get the point, but im sure you knew this all.

Sure some of these abilities can be timed properly with the use of boss mods, but not everyone uses those. So ya, with excellent timing (running 40 yards in while hardcasting lava burst and elemental blast), boss mods, some luck, and pretty much perfect play, you can say TP might not be a dps gain for you. But it most definitely is a dps gain for your average shaman not willing to jump through 20 hoops.

why are you running into melee on jin'rokh, ji-kun and iron quon?
what totems are you dropping?

[Jotaux]

on water you forget that you can glyph hst where the healed player gets a buff to reduce elemental damage.
why are you running into melee on jin'rokh, ji-kun and iron quon?
what totems are you dropping?

He's trying to make a point that Totemic projection is a dps increase and that if fire totems were still a part of totemic persistance it would be a wash because of complications with dropping the totems in melee

[Raiju]

I find it amusing how much value you give in losing dps when using bulwark instead of astral shift. is one gcd that important? you forget why you set bulwark. to reduce the damage you get. so you shouldn't compare bulwark with astral shift with the gcd in mind only. I use what makes more sense in terms of I need to reduce incoming damage

Suggest spending 1 GCD per minute (or close to it in scenarios where you take bulwark), and people don't understand how it's a dps decrease. Bulwark will lose you a LOT more dps than Totemic Persistence would, assuming the fight is over a minute long (even in peak totemic persistence performance).

why are you running into melee on jin'rokh, ji-kun and iron quon?
what totems are you dropping?

magma totem, probably. Some people suggested magma totem being a viable dps increase. Stormlash is was also mentioned due to people being spread out (but all in range of the boss)