Mage 5.4 Discussion

[Shangalar]

No because every time you "spread" Combustion, it overwrites the previous one and limits it to the duration of the new one. So spamming Inferno Blast after Combustion would be 100% pointless.

The goal of this set bonus, outside of helping you prepare a Combustion at the start of the fight when all your procs are up (if the set bonus procs), is to allow for mini burst phases. Based on it's 6 second duration, it will let you cast for example IB, IB, Pyro!, IB, IB *drops off* Pyro!. Not sure if there's any other point in it.

To do the math, we need to look at a lot of different possible scenarios to calculate the damage and I don't plan to do that, just laying down the ground work for whoever wants to try:

1. Fireball/Pyro (non crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (non Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
2. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
3. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
4. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
5. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (also possible chain continuation)

Also there are combinations when after the Pyro! in the middle of the chain you cast only one IB and then another Pyro! and then if it crits you can go for another IB.

Is it possible that knowing you'll get a couple of Pyroblast! for sure is worth less dps than continuing with the Fireball rotation and possibly not get them?

While you guys may find the set bonus to be underwhelming, until I see some hard math, I'm pretty sure it's a nifty dps gain.

[Polarthief]

Liking the changes so far

Yeah I do too, especially the part where it skips from Hunter to Monk. -_-

[Elegiac]

For all of you expecting a change to the level 90 talents, I hate to burst your bubble. Blizzard has already acknowledged they dug themselves into a hole with the talents, and that any major overhaul would only happen at the end of an expansion.

Beyond a few QoL fixes, don't expect anything to change with that tier of talents. Or anything much to change with Mages until 6.0.

[Breakee]

IB + IB + Pyro!

But you do realise it's not actually a burst , but a loss on dps ?
Ib does 40k damage with a 1-1.5 sec gcd
do you think it's worth it ?
No it isn't. The 4part needs to be fixed , because it's highly useless.

[SodiumChloride]

Yeah I do too, especially the part where it skips from Hunter to Monk. -_-

Take it as a blessing in disguise.

[Frost1129]

No because every time you "spread" Combustion, it overwrites the previous one and limits it to the duration of the new one. So spamming Inferno Blast after Combustion would be 100% pointless.

The goal of this set bonus, outside of helping you prepare a Combustion at the start of the fight when all your procs are up (if the set bonus procs), is to allow for mini burst phases. Based on it's 6 second duration, it will let you cast for example IB, IB, Pyro!, IB, IB *drops off* Pyro!. Not sure if there's any other point in it.

To do the math, we need to look at a lot of different possible scenarios to calculate the damage and I don't plan to do that, just laying down the ground work for whoever wants to try:

1. Fireball/Pyro (non crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (non Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
2. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
3. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
4. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
5. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (also possible chain continuation)

Also there are combinations when after the Pyro! in the middle of the chain you cast only one IB and then another Pyro! and then if it crits you can go for another IB.

Is it possible that knowing you'll get a couple of Pyroblast! for sure is worth less dps than continuing with the Fireball rotation and possibly not get them?

While you guys may find the set bonus to be underwhelming, until I see some hard math, I'm pretty sure it's a nifty dps gain.

When you say FB/Pryo, do you mean either FB or Pyro, or do you mean when coming off a FB / Pyro when HU / Pyro! is up?

Also: Which of your Pyro! are being cast, and which are being held onto?

These two points make a big difference, and can significantly expand the number of scenarios to be looked at. (Even though I think its basically a useless 4pc which gets devalued as we get more crit)

[Deleted]

No because every time you "spread" Combustion, it overwrites the previous one and limits it to the duration of the new one. So spamming Inferno Blast after Combustion would be 100% pointless.

The goal of this set bonus, outside of helping you prepare a Combustion at the start of the fight when all your procs are up (if the set bonus procs), is to allow for mini burst phases. Based on it's 6 second duration, it will let you cast for example IB, IB, Pyro!, IB, IB *drops off* Pyro!. Not sure if there's any other point in it.

To do the math, we need to look at a lot of different possible scenarios to calculate the damage and I don't plan to do that, just laying down the ground work for whoever wants to try:

1. Fireball/Pyro (non crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (non Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
2. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
3. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
4. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
5. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (also possible chain continuation)

Also there are combinations when after the Pyro! in the middle of the chain you cast only one IB and then another Pyro! and then if it crits you can go for another IB.

Is it possible that knowing you'll get a couple of Pyroblast! for sure is worth less dps than continuing with the Fireball rotation and possibly not get them?

While you guys may find the set bonus to be underwhelming, until I see some hard math, I'm pretty sure it's a nifty dps gain.

there will be almost no scenario where you want to use IB twice in a row.
by the time you get the set you'll probably have ~70%++ crit after cm. ib doesnt scale with haste when meta is up because its already gc capped. fireball does almost twice as much damage as IB consindering 70%++ crit.
it blows me away how someone playing mage may even think this is useful.

if they dont change it (they most probably will), you will just keep your t15 4set until you get two heroic t16 with crit + crit offset pieces. (maybe even tf if they will implement it again)

even if they nerf cm to 1.01% you still wont use IB twice in a row unless they change the spell.

[Polarthief]

Take it as a blessing in disguise.

For Fire.

A curse in disguise as Frost.

Fire is going to get nerfed, and Frost desperately needs some (positive) changes.

L75/90 talents also require some fixing.

[Exoduz99]

No because every time you "spread" Combustion, it overwrites the previous one and limits it to the duration of the new one. So spamming Inferno Blast after Combustion would be 100% pointless.

The goal of this set bonus, outside of helping you prepare a Combustion at the start of the fight when all your procs are up (if the set bonus procs), is to allow for mini burst phases. Based on it's 6 second duration, it will let you cast for example IB, IB, Pyro!, IB, IB *drops off* Pyro!. Not sure if there's any other point in it.

To do the math, we need to look at a lot of different possible scenarios to calculate the damage and I don't plan to do that, just laying down the ground work for whoever wants to try:

1. Fireball/Pyro (non crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (non Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
2. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + IB + Pyro! (Crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
3. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + Pyro!
4. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (non crit) + IB + IB + IB + Pyro! (allows you to possibly continue the chain)
5. Fireball/Pyro (crit, procs the set) + IB + Pyro! (crit) + IB + IB + Pyro! (also possible chain continuation)

.

if you get the procc, you're at it to conjure up the next FB (1.9-2.0sec), so only 4-4.5 (travel time) remain of the six seconds left in the period you'll make 4 GCD, so only remains:

FB noncrit: IB + IB + IB ---> FB + Pyrp ---> Pyro
FB crit: IB + IB -> FB + Pyro ---> Pyro

[Seanothan]

Fire is going to get nerfed, and Frost desperately needs some (positive) changes.

Is there something they need to do to fix this outside of giving us a pure damage buff for our spells? The T16 set bonuses seem like a good way to start the buff-train. Granted we don't know how hard that boulder from a FFB will hit and I will have to stop using FFB when I have two FoF's up.

[jtmzac]

I will have to stop using FFB when I have two FoF's up.

That is one of a few issues with the frost bonuses. The other is that there isn't a reason to stop stacking haste yet.

Its early days and the ptr is hardly at a state where you can actually do anything. I've just been admiring the new vale since that's all you can do.

I do wonder if arcane will need a change or two to bring it back in line with frost and nerfed fire.

[Deleted]

Granted we don't know how hard that boulder from a FFB will hit and I will have to stop using FFB when I have two FoF's up.

Is this true?
Lets say the bonuses go live as they are now. A FFB hits one target harder than an IL. IL with cleave hits harder then FFB. (Values now. After the patch we have to recalculate because of the boulder)
So in singletargetfights with a fast-ticking LB or even faster-ticking NT u have 2 options:
Casting FFB instant and maybe wasting 1 or 2 IL.
Casting 1/2 IL to clear and maybe wasting another FFB.
I think here we need some math again.

[Polarthief]

Is there something they need to do to fix this outside of giving us a pure damage buff for our spells?

I'm assuming you mean Frost, and yes, there is a multitude of ways to fix us:

- Change our Mastery to make it our BiS stat in PvE (which will consequently nerf it in PvP, which is what is needed atm)
- Change Shatter to: "If your critical strike chance exceeds 100% after taking Shatter into account, the damage is increased proportionally to the bonus".
(e.g., if you have 30% Crit: -3% Boss Suppression = (27% * 2) + 50% = 54% + 50% = 104%. Your frozen spells, FoF'd ILs, and BF'd FFBs will deal 4% additional damage against bosses)
- (though this would only fix Frostbolt Haste capping) Nerf Frostbolt's cast time, and give it a significant damage and/or scaling increase (and NOT in the form of a glyph, because we already have Icy Veins which is basically forced on us for Haste issues).

---------- Post added 2013-06-13 at 05:02 AM ----------

Is this true?
Lets say the bonuses go live as they are now. A FFB hits one target harder than an IL. IL with cleave hits harder then FFB. (Values now. After the patch we have to recalculate because of the boulder)
So in singletargetfights with a fast-ticking LB or even faster-ticking NT u have 2 options:
Casting FFB instant and maybe wasting 1 or 2 IL.
Casting 1/2 IL to clear and maybe wasting another FFB.
I think here we need some math again.

In that situation, LB may come out ahead of NT on most fights, simply so you don't waste either, due to its longer tick time.

[Deleted]

In a 5.4 PTR thread Nakatoir justifies the changes of Warlock's Kil'Jaeden's Cunning by saying:

"The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it."

This is interesting because I think that Fire and Frost mages may have about the same situation with Invocation talent, at least in raiding enviroment. Invocation became the only way to go when Incanter's Ward was nerfed from +30% damage to +15% damage.

[mrgreenthump]

In a 5.4 PTR thread Nakatoir justifies the changes of Warlock's Kil'Jaeden's Cunning by saying:

"The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it."

This is interesting because I think that Fire and Frost mages may have about the same situation with Invocation talent, at least in raiding enviroment. Invocation became the only way to go when Incanter's Ward was nerfed from +30% damage to +15% damage.

It's a totally different story for mages. As mages we pick Invocation as it's the least annoying to keep up and maximize. We do not like the t6 talents(or well most don't). But we have to use them to do well on our dps. We can use incanter's or RoP as fire and frost, but those talents suck balls if you don't have to care abt mana. Given incanter's is the faceroll option of just letting it be doing nothing.

As warlock.. you just had to pick kil'jaeden's in most cases. It was too good to pass on. The only drawback of the talent was slower movement speed, which was still enough to survive almost all of the raid mechanics. And it gives you the ability to cast while moving, cast anything. In heroic raids there are constant movement adjustments and while classes like mages can deal with it by using instants. It's still mighty annoying and will result to dps losses overtime, and that was something that warlocks just didn't have to care abt.

[voltaa]

Blizzard dev meeting: heads we give mages and shamans a passive reduction, tails we just nerf the shit out of everyone else.

Very excited for arcane tier as well, frost looks cool also...and uh fire...keep up the good work little buddy, you'll get a cool tier bonus some day...

[Morpheuspt]

There is no way in hell that Blizzard is going to put in a 2 set bonus, that would force you to keep going for haste to get the most out of it; while being under the GCD cap constantly. That's not fun.

L90 Talents.

[SodiumChloride]

In a 5.4 PTR thread Nakatoir justifies the changes of Warlock's Kil'Jaeden's Cunning by saying:

"The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it."

This is interesting because I think that Fire and Frost mages may have about the same situation with Invocation talent, at least in raiding enviroment. Invocation became the only way to go when Incanter's Ward was nerfed from +30% damage to +15% damage.

Oh, Blizzard knows that the Mage lvl 90 talents are broken as heck and that no one likes them. They just haven't gotten around to fixing it because it would be a huge change as they redesign and repurpose the whole tier.

[Malfecto]

It won't be a blessing in disguise or a nifty dps gain. Those IB will degrade your ignite. It is already a PITA to juggle IB under high haste conditions. Now it would be even more hectic watching mechanics, eyeballing the proc and HU. I mean how many FB crit/Pyro Crit procs are you going to waste trying to make the most of the 6 seconds? Not to mention how incredibly choppy IB makes the casting rotation, even without a CD.

Whatever. I just wish they'd fix invocation. how about that for a set bonus:

2 pc: Invocation properly buffs the player upon reaching the end of the channel.
4 pc: Imbues the mage with some dignity so when the enhancement shaman trounces him in dps, he doesn't die from shame.

[Polarthief]

In a 5.4 PTR thread Nakatoir justifies the changes of Warlock's Kil'Jaeden's Cunning by saying:

"The reason for this change is that Kil'Jaeden's Cunning just felt too good and over 99% of Affliction Warlocks were taking it."

This is interesting because I think that Fire and Frost mages may have about the same situation with Invocation talent, at least in raiding enviroment. Invocation became the only way to go when Incanter's Ward was nerfed from +30% damage to +15% damage.

It's a totally different story for mages. As mages we pick Invocation as it's the least annoying to keep up and maximize. We do not like the t6 talents(or well most don't). But we have to use them to do well on our dps. We can use incanter's or RoP as fire and frost, but those talents suck balls if you don't have to care abt mana. Given incanter's is the faceroll option of just letting it be doing nothing.

As warlock.. you just had to pick kil'jaeden's in most cases. It was too good to pass on. The only drawback of the talent was slower movement speed, which was still enough to survive almost all of the raid mechanics. And it gives you the ability to cast while moving, cast anything. In heroic raids there are constant movement adjustments and while classes like mages can deal with it by using instants. It's still mighty annoying and will result to dps losses overtime, and that was something that warlocks just didn't have to care abt.

What's funny is I just made a thread on this.

Let me recap on it: KJC was popular, so it was looked at. Invocation is popular, so it will probably be looked at. They see WHY things are popular (In KJC's sense, it was so amazing, awesome, and good. In Invocation's sense, it's because it's the lesser of 3 evils). L90 tier can near expect some change, even if it isn't that amazing. SOMETHING will change.