5.4 PTR DK Changes

[Basso]

Fix'd for you

still more then the 5 yard of the bubble and just do some math 40% for 3 seconds is the same then 20% for 6 seconds in my opinion^^

[JGWentworth]

Do you folks think that Riposte bumps up Parry and Dodge above Hit/Exp caps for tanks now?

[Basso]

Do you folks think that Riposte bumps up Parry and Dodge above Hit/Exp caps for tanks now?

if we talk about the origin of the tank and that is surviving, hit/exp was never above parry and dodge for the dk, as far as i know.

and doing damage is not the task of a tank in my opinion, and blizzard has the same because the nerf vengeance

[JGWentworth]

if we talk about the origin of the tank and that is surviving, hit/exp was never above parry and dodge for the dk, as far as i know.

and doing damage is not the task of a tank in my opinion, and blizzard has the same because the nerf vengeance

I'm sorry you're living in the past. The nerf to vengeance was to stop people gaming fights by solo tanking them, not because Blizz thinks that tanks shouldn't do damage.

Tank damage is important when pushing through heroic modes or even regular modes - if there were no enrage timers I would agree with you.

[Basso]

I'm sorry you're living in the past. The nerf to vengeance was to stop people gaming fights by solo tanking them, not because Blizz thinks that tanks shouldn't do damage.

Tank damage is important when pushing through heroic modes or even regular modes - if there were no enrage timers I would agree with you.

they also said that tanks shouldn't outperform dps roles in doing dps, they said a tank should think about taking as less damage as possible not
about the voids he could stand in to take more damage, to gain more vengeance, to do more damage himself.

i dont mind tanks dps but its not the thing the should focus on and they should never outperform the real dps roles......

also the vengeance nerf doesn't change a thing about solo tanking

[JGWentworth]

they also said that tanks shouldn't outperform dps roles in doing dps, they said a tank should think about taking as less damage as possible not
about the voids he could stand in to take more damage, to gain more vengeance, to do more damage himself.

i dont mind tanks dps but its not the thing the should focus on and they should never outperform the real dps roles......

also the vengeance nerf doesn't change a thing about solo tanking

They wouldn't be putting Riposte into the game if the only thing we were to concern ourselves with is survival.

OT: Do you folks think that Riposte makes Dodge/Parry more attractive than Hit/Exp caps or Haste even?

[DarthMetatron]

they also said that tanks shouldn't outperform dps roles in doing dps, they said a tank should think about taking as less damage as possible not
about the voids he could stand in to take more damage, to gain more vengeance, to do more damage himself.

i dont mind tanks dps but its not the thing the should focus on and they should never outperform the real dps roles......

also the vengeance nerf doesn't change a thing about solo tanking

Yeah, solo tanking has nothing to do with vengeance. Solo tanking just gave one tank all the vengeance all the time so his dps is high AND you open up a slot to add another dps player which in turn makes the fight easier. Blizzard sees this during testing and tunes the fight accordingly which puts a higher strain on the dps requirements.

That is what needs to be fixed if they want to make tank damage a non-factor. As long as a class can single-tank a fight while other tanks cannot, those teams with the single tank class will have a huge advantage. This is also why tank damage matters so much (you can severely under-gear content and beat it by doing this), in addition to enrage timers.


EDIT:
Riposte is complete garbage and will not change the way I gear for tanking (reforge out of all dodge/parry)

[Deleted]

still more then the 5 yard of the bubble and just do some math 40% for 3 seconds is the same then 20% for 6 seconds in my opinion^^

It depends.

On large instant hits: "old" AMZ > "new" AMZ > DA

On medium/light ticks that last less than 6 seconds: "new" AMZ > DA > "old" AMZ

On medium/light ticks that last more than 6 seconds: DA > "new" AMZ > "old" AMZ

That's, of course, if your raid can stack under AMZ, otherwise DA it's better in any case.

[Maelstrom51]

With higher avoidance your "worst RNG possible" is going to be better than stacking haste thus making avoidance absolutely on par with haste.

Not at all. In a "worst possible RNG" situation, avoidance provides absolutely nothing.

It is also worth noting that avoidance only works on things which can be avoided. I still hold by that the consistency of haste along with its ability to be useful against all damage makes it a stronger survivability stat.

[Tarazet]

I can see using something like the Darkmoon Stam trinket + Phase Fingers to boost Dodge (and resulting Crit) rating on the pull, applying diseases after Riposte activates (even better if you get a Fallen Crusader/Str trinket proc), and refreshing them with Scarlet Fever via Blood Boil. So you get a kind of Blood Festerblight.

[Xevz]

Feel like they should have left it 75% but shorten the duration to 3 seconds with no cap. That way it absorbs the same damage without it just being wasted on a dot.

[Deleted]

Not at all. In a "worst possible RNG" situation, avoidance provides absolutely nothing.

You're right, but it doesn't mean much though, because there's also a chance you could enter in a perfect RNG situation and avoidance would be the best thing ever.

There are also situations where avoidance could save you from a big hit that would otherwise one shot you, while haste wouldn't do jack about it.

All in all, these stats are pretty much incomparable because they provide different kinds of benefits. What we can calculate though, is which one is more likely to make a difference when you're in danger. Also, haste is constant while avoidance is random, so yeah.

[Tarazet]

You're right, but it doesn't mean much though, because there's also a chance you could enter in a perfect RNG situation and avoidance would be the best thing ever.

There are also situations where avoidance could save you from a big hit that would otherwise one shot you, while haste wouldn't do jack about it.

All in all, these stats are pretty much incomparable because they provide different kinds of benefits. What we can calculate though, is which one is more likely to make a difference when you're in danger. Also, haste is constant while avoidance is random, so yeah.

You don't use avoidance to avoid individual hits that would kill you. That's what cooldowns are for. You use avoidance so that you take less damage overall and your healers have mana when it counts.

[Deleted]

You don't use avoidance to avoid individual hits that would kill you. That's what cooldowns are for. You use avoidance so that you take less damage overall and your healers have mana when it counts.

I never denied that. Just said that avoidance could potentially save you from a big 1 million melee swing while haste couldn't.

[Deleted]

nobody uses AMZ in PVP anyways why would you when lichborne is the go to talent in that tier, just use AMS and glyph it and it does better than what AMZ does apart from only protecting you ofc, ive been wondering about the death siphon change of 10% increased AP

[Deleted]

Not at all. In a "worst possible RNG" situation, avoidance provides absolutely nothing.

If you take that statement literally neither haste would provide absolutely nothing, so what are we talking about?

[Nyanmaru]

If you take that statement literally neither haste would provide absolutely nothing, so what are we talking about?

Think about hitting a target dummy with auto hits for 10 hours, 2s swing timer, once with 50% haste and 0% crit, once with 50% crit and 0% haste.
The damage done in the end will be roughly equal. Now compare dmg done over 30 seconds and compare the divergence of damage done.

Haste will be at a 1.33s swingtimer, so in 30s there'd be 22.5 hits every 30s, so it'd be damage equal to 22 or 23 hits (50:50 divided).
Crit with a 2s swingtimer will always score 15 hits, on average these will also deal 22.5 hits worth damage, but a bad luck streak can leave you with 15 hits worth and a good luck streak can leave you with 30 hits worth.

I prefer a certain reliability when tanking. If just base avoidance were higher and the DR not so steep. I don't like investing into low avoidance but I'd break a leg to get high avoidance (as in 70%+).

[JGWentworth]

Think about hitting a target dummy with auto hits for 10 hours, 2s swing timer, once with 50% haste and 0% crit, once with 50% crit and 0% haste.
The damage done in the end will be roughly equal.

I don't think it works that way

[Nillo]

I don't think it works that way

Why not ? °_°

[JGWentworth]

Why not ? °_°

Lets say for every swing you do 10 damage

in 10 hours with a base of 2s swing timer and 50% haste you would have a 1 second swing and get 600 hits of 10 = 6000 damage

in 10 hours with a base of 2s with 50% crit you would get 150 hits at 10 (1500) and 150 hits at 15 = 2250 = 3750

6000 =/= 3750