5.4 KJC changes.

[Deleted]

Lastly, it pisses me off that so many bad FOTM rerollers play Warlocks just for that talent.

Why exactly? It's true I made my warlock because of that talent, but how am I exactly influencing your experience in WoW by having a warlock myself? Just curious.

Blizzard are in a pickle imo. They want to change KJC, but any change they do will be a step back for the class and yet they refuse to look at the other caster classes and their mobility and maybe improve things a bit where they are due (looking at arcane).

[Leonofhyjal]

Warlocks already do huge DPS, arguably they're the best DPS class in the game right now. Giving them the opportunity to perform their best rotation with no disadvantage is of course overpowered. Scorch is a huge DPS loss for a Mage, if they move it's normally because they can use the globals on Inferno Blast / Pyroblast. Shadow Priests can do barely anything when they move either. Same for Druids. Maybe tier 6 talents need to be redesigned (I agree a 'buffed' SWG is underwhelming for t6) but are you really surprised it took them this late to nerf such an absurd talent?

Do you even warlock bro? I mean really how the hell is a 30% slow not a disadvantage? Do you know how many boss mechanics that will probably kill you with a 30% slow?

Here's a list that I can think of right now. Megaera ice beam, Ji-Kun Down Draft, Durumu Force of Will, Twin Consorts Nuclear Inferno and unstacking afterwards, Lei Shen whatever the big lightning one is called, and the knockback winds. Lei Shi Get Away, Tsulong moving from the fear bombs with 2 stacks of KJC gets you feared everytime, Attenuation in hof, Blade Lord stacking for the AOE Cone, Garalon kiting the pheromones, Amber Shaper moving from the amalgamation when he was just threw someone and is about to stomp. Grand Empress kiting the add that fixates you, Stone Guard H Lighting up tiles at 10 MPH is lame, Spirit Kings moving from Flanking orders and kiting the Skulls that fixate, Will of the Emperor moving from the Strengths AOE stun in time.

I know I probably missed more then a few but how the hell can you argue that those mechanics listed above don't kill us sometimes because we have a 30% slow...

I mean hell go test this for yourself. Get 2 stacks of KJC on a target dummy. Get a friend to Skey while you run normally next to him with 2 stacks. You'll see how dumb it looks to play with 30% snare half the time. Overall your comment has no mar-it what so ever.

---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 07:57 AM ----------

Why exactly? It's true I made my warlock because of that talent, but how am I exactly influencing your experience in WoW by having a warlock myself? Just curious.

Blizzard are in a pickle imo. They want to change KJC, but any change they do will be a step back for the class and yet they refuse to look at the other caster classes and their mobility and maybe improve things a bit where they are due (looking at arcane).

Somewhat true but Blizzard DOES NOT want to change KJC. They have been saying its fine for months now. This nerf is only because people qq. You are right though that its the other classes mobility that is the problem. More reason not to change this mid expansion.

[Jessicka]

Why exactly? It's true I made my warlock because of that talent, but how am I exactly influencing your experience in WoW by having a warlock myself? Just curious.

Blizzard are in a pickle imo. They want to change KJC, but any change they do will be a step back for the class and yet they refuse to look at the other caster classes and their mobility and maybe improve things a bit where they are due (looking at arcane).

How does it effect me? Three ways:

1) It creates an expectation to use that talent. That's not what talents are for; they're choices based on preference and situation. KJC removes that choice until MF is going to be better, or if you can really step your game up substantially that the extra damage from AV will outweigh the losses from movement. Players aren't going to do the latter, so KJC becomes default and you're wrong not to use it.

2) It hurts other, less mobile casters where RLs take the Warlock because they're more mobile and can deal more damage as a result.

3) Many, many of the fundamental mechanics of the game are based on the premise that ranged are less mobile than melee. Allowing ranged to be mobile breaks down those fundamental principals and causes issues right through from PvE encounter mechanics to PvP and the very core individual class ability designs.

Lastly, they gave use Fel Flame in Cataclysm to offer us more mobility. KJC as a passive is outperforming the skilled use of instants, including Fel Flame for movement. Passive should never, ever outperform active abilities.

[Deleted]

Do you even warlock bro? I mean really how the hell is a 30% slow not a disadvantage? Do you know how many boss mechanics that will probably kill you with a 30% slow?

dont we have burning rush for those occassions?

[Leonofhyjal]

How does it effect me? Three ways:

1) It creates an expectation to use that talent. That's not what talents are for; they're choices based on preference and situation. KJC removes that choice until MF is going to be better, or if you can really step your game up substantially that the extra damage from AV will outweigh the losses from movement. Players aren't going to do the latter, so KJC becomes default and you're wrong not to use it.

2) It hurts other, less mobile casters where RLs take the Warlock because they're more mobile and can deal more damage as a result.

3) Many, many of the fundamental mechanics of the game are based on the premise that ranged are less mobile than melee. Allowing ranged to be mobile breaks down those fundamental principals and causes issues right through from PvE encounter mechanics to PvP and the very core individual class ability designs.

Lastly, they gave use Fel Flame in Cataclysm to offer us more mobility. KJC as a passive is outperforming the skilled use of instants, including Fel Flame for movement. Passive should never, ever outperform active abilities.

Someone is stuck in the stone ages and doesn't want the game to change for the better lol.

[forsworn]

Destro has plenty of instant casts given that Fel Flame is almost as good as Incinerate.

lol? Incinerate is far superior. Plus dps is drasticaly lowered if Leashen proc while moving if you cant immo

[Kiqjaq]

Might just stop levelling my Warlock then. Being able to cast on the move is probably the biggest reason I actually bothered in the first place, now that talent is just a shammy re-make Locks are basically just a Spriest with pets (since GoSac was nerfed - another reason I started levelling, don't care for pets).

>Hopes you guys 'talk' about it more so they revert said change.

Yeah, this.
I started leveling my lock once I heard about GoSac being viable. Awesome stuff. Kind of shelved him once I was forced to drag a derp around, but now I might as well delete him if he can't cast while moving any more...

[Leonofhyjal]

dont we have burning rush for those occassions?

Having to pop Burning Rush is a disadvantage all on its own. 4% hp per second?? No thanks but i'll pass. Blizzard just needs to leave us warlocks alone, wait for the new expansion and then back KJC into all casters. I bet anything that's exactly what the next expo will be like anyways.

[Mnevis]

Yeah, Fel Flame is skill!

Don't get me wrong, I used to play an Ele Shaman when they were the epitome of turret (I've played Warlock in all four expansions, but not till titles and mounts went account-wide did I switch my main). I know about saving your two instant casts for the Sonic Rings that will be coming in 5sec. I know doing that well is why my dps was only semi-terrible as Elemental. But I also know that the moment I read in the patch notes about Glyph of Unleashed Lightning was one of the highlights of Cata for me. Casting while moving is just way more fun.

[Jessicka]

lol? Incinerate is far superior. Plus dps is drasticaly lowered if Leashen proc while moving if you cant immo

Also, you can only cast 6-7 Fel Flames before oom.

Someone is stuck in the stone ages and doesn't want the game to change for the better lol.

Better is a very subjective thing.

[slickwilly]

It's a needed nerf. Warlocks are just too strong at the moment. They have no weaknesses pve wise. Gimping them a little on movement is fine. The current 30% slow added is harmless. Your epeen will only shrink 1 cm.

[Deleted]

How does it effect me? Three ways:
>snip<

Fair points. The problem I see currently is that warlocks will suffer the most because of that talent and how it is integrated in both PvE and PvP. Changing KJC will inevitably lead to other changes in the specs and how they play and we don't know if those are going to be for the better or for the worse. Thinking about the core design that ranged should be stationary and melee mobile, one can't just turn a blind eye to hunters in that context, so we come the question > if warlocks receive a gutted version of KJC, will Blizzard allow hunters to become the gods of mobility among range classes? Will Blizzard give the so old response "you are casters, hunters aren't"? That would just be a very high form of hypocrisy...

[Leonofhyjal]

Better is a very subjective thing.[/QUOTE]

And that perspective of "better" is from Blizzard.

[Mnevis]

It's a needed nerf. Warlocks are just too strong at the moment. They have no weaknesses pve wise. Gimping them a little on movement is fine. The current 30% slow added is harmless. Your epeen will only shrink 1 cm.

Our epeens won't shrink at all, because Demo will still reign supreme. Affliction representation will shrink like it took a dip in a mountain stream, however.

[Medieve]

This is a necessary change that should have been done a while ago. For locks, yes it sucks, but in the current incarnation of the game, it's necessary, for one simple reason: The answer to difficult encounter design is bring a lock. There is no encounter locks can't circumvent in usually multiple ways to make themselves desirable at the expense of any other class. Where you often see "why bring x class" arguments, you will just as often see discussions like "what can I drop to bring another lock?" Locks simply bring too much in comparison to other classes. Movement will still be a small issue to locks (We've been clever with our portals before, I'm sure we'll figure it out again), but we trivialized movement for many classes with well placed portals, not just ourselves. When portals don't serve, we could pick up a talent to continue our optimal rotations. There is no downside (unless you consider not taking AV a downside). That had to change, and a direct DPS nerf wasn't the answer here. Perhaps next expansion other classes with gain the tools to play as locks do now so their advantages aren't so extreme, but to finish this one, this is the right move.

In PvP, locks suffer from a lot of the same problems Ret paladins do. They're balanced. They have strengths counter-balanced by exploitable weaknesses. The issue in PvP is many other specs and classes do not. They have weaknesses, but they're not easily exploitable, if exploitable at all, where locks can be managed. That's something else that needs to be addressed, but on a macro level. It's a poor excuse to keep imbalances at the expense of PvE, where a majority of players do play. I'm not saying that PvPers are second-class citizens or should be ignored, but on a corporate level, you need to keep your bread and butter healthy before you can worry about smaller aspects of the system. PvP is a very valid concern, but there are resource limitations, and overhauling many classes is something best done at expansion release, and one class at expansion end.

None of this is going so far to say that locks are replacing other classes across the board in raids. That's not the case at any extreme. It is at the point where decent warlocks are getting into raids at the expense of better non-lock DPS simply because they offer more return. A decent lock can get into some very good raid groups based on class alone, and that goes directly against bring the player, not the class. KJC and MF are both equally responsible. There's no compelling encounter that you could design where one of those two talents wouldn't give warlocks a significant edge. With minimal effort, a lock can bypass mechanics to an extent no other class can. Come 5.4, they can't.

Yes, it sucks. It's because warlocks are far better designed than other classes, and Blizzard doesn't have the dev space to re-design every other class as well as warlocks were by 5.4. It's an unfortunate problem to have, but one that can't be ignored indefinitely.

[Leonofhyjal]

So it seems some of you just thinking Warlock damage is to high. I could agree with you there tbh. But why not just give us a passive damage nerf? It's a lot better way to bring us down from the top 2 dps classes.

[Mnevis]

Cause they already tried that!

[Deleted]

-snip-

Top-end raiding will and has always been about bringing the class, not the player.

Because:

Out of 40 skillcapped players, you bring 25 skillcapped players on the 25 best possible classes. Warlocks just so happen to be mandatory on several fights for several reasons, often the portal, occasionally the dps, rarely for the dotting, once for the pet tanking.
In Sunwell you had to bring decursers, namely mages and druids. They didn't nerf mages' or druids' talents because they were the only ones who could decurse. That would be retarded. So is this.

I am not against KJC being removed, but get your hands off of my Mannoroth's Fury!

Oh and if you're going to fuck us over in PVP atleast do it properly. Make us take 1000% extra damage from players to make up for Soul Leech. Just removing our passive reduction is silly, do it properly.

[Leonofhyjal]

Top-end raiding will and has always been about bringing the class, not the player.

Because:

Out of 40 skillcapped players, you bring 25 skillcapped players on the 25 best possible classes. Warlocks just so happen to be mandatory on several fights for several reasons, often the portal, occasionally the dps, rarely for the dotting, once for the pet tanking.
In Sunwell you had to bring decursers, namely mages and druids. They didn't nerf mages' or druids' talents because they were the only ones who could decurse. That would be retarded. So is this.

I am not against KJC being removed, but get your hands off of my Mannoroth's Fury!

Oh and if you're going to fuck us over in PVP atleast do it properly. Make us take 1000% extra damage from players to make up for Soul Leech. Just removing our passive reduction is silly, do it properly.

Woot what you said about 1000% more damage taken was golden lol.

[superdooper]

Taking away KJC will be roughly a 15-20% dps nerf on most fights. Thus, they'd have to buff our damage by this amount to get us parsing competitively.

If they add 35% damage to dots and 50% damage to chaos bolt, then Aff & Destro would be fine. Will they do this? Probably, in 5.5 (after top guild have already cleared heroics).