Designing the warrior of 6.0.

[aGit]

I think the suggestion was more to make Disarm actually USEFUL outside of PVP and trash. I can't remember the last boss that was susceptible to Disarm effects.

not a boss it self, but onyxia had adds that dealt alot less dps if you disarmed them.

[Deleted]

I wish they would rework most of the self healing things that every class have right now. Instead move it to some kind of defensive cooldown you can pop once every 2-3 mins.

I also wish that they would rework the button spam that Warriors have right now. It looks and feel stupid that we are spamming attacks as fast as Rogues nowadays, most attacks feel meaningless and without impact. It feels like our weapon is made out of cardboard and effortless to swing around like some piñata stick.

Wish they would bring back the more hardhitting feel of 2h's. Fury; however, feels pretty good now.

[Xirek]

- Remove Berserker Stance
They’ve tried their absolute hardest to make this work, and it simply hasn’t. At this point it’s unlikely we’ll see the GCD lowering of Unholy Presence, and nobody in PvP is going to use this for rage when under attack (that’s what Defensive Stance is for). We’ve also moved away from attacks that are stance-dependent, so I reckon it’s time to retire ‘zerker once and for all.

My fellow Fury Warrior juts cringed at this idea. He loves that Battle Stance gives solid rage but he definitely knows how to work Berserker Stance well. When you look at it, it really doesn't give you the greatest return on investment, but still it's something.

-Rework Disarm
Rather than having Disarm work solely in PvP and next to never in PvE, make Disarm work on everything with a flat 20% damage reduction for its duration. This means we can safely remove the spec-specific minor cooldowns with no cost to tanks and only a limited cost to damage dealers.

As a Protection Warrior it really is frustrating to see Disarm work so rarely on things. If you are going to remove Demoralizing Shout though, you would need this to have some sort of AOE effect because it's a godsend on things like Challenge Modes or where tons of adds are beating on you. At least with DbtS we got something comparable to what Ret Paladins had. I know on Heroic Baleroc our Healers would constantly complain on having to soak crystals or on Heroic Ultraxion. The Pally on the other hand had no problem due to the personal CDs.

-Rework Demoralizing Banner
A raid cooldown that doesn’t work on environmental damage is simply very strange. Rename this banner to “Inspiring” and give everyone in range a flat 30% damage reduction for its duration. This would be an awful lot better than how it currently works, and will make the loss of the second mitigation cooldown (when we don’t need two, anyway) easier to swallow.

This, a 1000x this. The fact that the Demo Banner does so very little in the grand scheme of things is a bit annoying. I would honestly agree with you suggesting removing Rallying Cry if we got that, because really, who cares about two cooldowns that are "ok" when you can have one that really rocks.

- Remove Hamstring
Probably the worst snare in the game at this point, and has fallen into disuse with Piercing Howl available to everyone. We’ve moved on from it at this stage of the game, so it’s time to retire it.

Wow, I was just trying to think when was the last time I even used Hamstring. I honestly can't think of it because for the most part I use Piercing Howl if I'm in a situation where I need to kite or train something. A lot of times it's me dealing with multiple adds (which is precisely the reason I'm kiting instead of standing and facing them).

- Make Second Wind baseline
This has already been discussed by Ghostcrawler himself and the talent dominates in PvP, so just do it. It’s a half decent talent for PvE warriors too, so making it our sole baseline heal makes sense. From this point, nobody is losing anything much with this change.

When you consider how many Protection Warriors rely on this ability at the end of the day it makes sense. It's not a rework of the Paladin version of WoG and it's not quite the Druids Frenzied Regeneration. Neither of those are considered Talents, so why not just make what almost every Prot Warrior thinks is true a reality anyway?

- Return Shockwave to Protection only
Sustained Protection warrior AoE is anaemic without Shockwave, while Arms and Fury have Whirlwind (plus talents) to cushion this blow; Protection has nothing. Even on a 40-second cooldown an AoE Kidney Shot is abnormally strong in PvP, but the nerf hit PvE tanks hard and forced them into Dragon Roar. If it’s too hard to balance, get it back where it causes the least problems – back with tanks.

You can have your stupid Dragon Roar back if I got my Shockwave the way it used to be. Stop penalizing me for not using it on X amount of targets. Either that or just nerf Shockwave so it's a PvP modification and put PvE back the way it was. This was one of the iconic marks of the Prot Warrior, it was kind of cool when they gave it everyone, but seriously, find some other toy to play with. Hell, come up with a new talent for all I care. Just.Give.It.Back.

Cheers to you Zellviren for opening up the discussion. Now we just have to get the Community as a whole to agree (the impossible dream) and present it to the Official Blizzard Forums. I mean c'mon we're helping them out by essentially asking them to give us X and it will make (most of) us happy.

[Eranthe]

You guys need to understand that removing abilities because you personally don't find them to be useful isn't a fair way to go about it.

Hamstring isn't the problem here. The problem is all the classes that have auto-applied snares that make hamstring useless in comparison.

Disarm is useful in pvp as well as rare occasions in pve, why remove an iconic warrior ability? If i was going to choose any abilities to remove from warrior, I would choose those that are rarely used/not very effective. Staggering Shout, Demoralizing Banner aren't very effective except in very specific circumstances.

Heroic throw is pretty much useless aside from gag order for prot.

Berserker stance needs to be tweaked but I fear it'll take yet another rage overhaul to make it feel good to go into berserker. (maybe they could give you the rage over time so you don't overcap and you get flooded with rage for a few seconds) The small amount of rage you gain from taking a shitload of damage is only going to give you a couple heroic strikes at most, very bad tradeoff imo.

Avatar is borderline worthless for pve dps since they completely neutered it.

Second wind is so good, it's hard to balance. nerfing it would really suck, and i'd hate having to swap to something else, but far and away more warriors use it than anything else. I'd say just make it baseline and give us some other talent choices since it's either going to be always used or (if they nerf it) never used.

those are the only abilities i can think of that need major changes for me to like them.

[ulfserk]

first of all, they need to swap battle and berserker stance back. I have no idea why they swapped them in the first place. berserker stance was always the pve dps stance, and battle was always the 'take some damage, deal some damage' stance.

i also have no idea why they renamed death wish, an iconic warrior cooldown, and gave it a new animation and icon (avatar).

wild strike should be removed, and we should get the old whirlwind back, rather than having to stack 3 whirlwind charges to make our raging blow into the old whirlwind.

and lastly, why the hell did they remove the white crit animation and sounds? i can literally crit for a several hundred thousand damage white and not notice it. white crits were an important aesthetic to playing fury for the entire history of the game.

[FAILoZOFF]

i would go for just offensive/defensive stances one with +25%dmg done other -25% dmg taken
there is very little room for 2 somehow offensive ones

eventually something like:
offensive \ +25 dmg done
balanced } stance +15 dmg done -15% dmg taken
defensive / -25 dmg taken

ofc scalling etc should then be adjusted to these values, and yes with these names, current one makes no sense other than def stance

[Deleted]

There are only two major things i'd like to see right now, one for pve and one for pvp:

pve - let prot warrior scale with weapon damage, we totally rely on damage intake (vengeance) or need special encounter (multiple melee foes -> revenge spam) to make our specc work. Letting us scale with offensive stats (crit, haste) would be nice but unless they remove avoidance from gear entirely that's really something for the far away future.

pvp - either autosnare or the unhindered mobility we deserve. Looking at the "regular" melee all not having to bother with globals to apply a reliable snare while we have to use every 4th to 5th global (+rage) on enemies to keep them from pillar humping is ridiculus. And looking at monks and their gloves bonus is a slap in our face, nothing else (on top of removing our improved hamstring just to give it to them).

[Deleted]

You guys need to understand that removing abilities because you personally don't find them to be useful isn't a fair way to go about it.

Hamstring isn't the problem here. The problem is all the classes that have auto-applied snares that make hamstring useless in comparison.

Disarm is useful in pvp as well as rare occasions in pve, why remove an iconic warrior ability? If i was going to choose any abilities to remove from warrior, I would choose those that are rarely used/not very effective. Staggering Shout, Demoralizing Banner aren't very effective except in very specific circumstances.

Heroic throw is pretty much useless aside from gag order for prot.

Berserker stance needs to be tweaked but I fear it'll take yet another rage overhaul to make it feel good to go into berserker. (maybe they could give you the rage over time so you don't overcap and you get flooded with rage for a few seconds) The small amount of rage you gain from taking a shitload of damage is only going to give you a couple heroic strikes at most, very bad tradeoff imo.

Avatar is borderline worthless for pve dps since they completely neutered it.

Second wind is so good, it's hard to balance. nerfing it would really suck, and i'd hate having to swap to something else, but far and away more warriors use it than anything else. I'd say just make it baseline and give us some other talent choices since it's either going to be always used or (if they nerf it) never used.

those are the only abilities i can think of that need major changes for me to like them.

Thing is whit things like disarm and spell reflect is that they are iconic but outright useless in raiding because just 1% of all the bosses are not immume to those talents and if they arent immume its most likely the adds that arent immume.
Its god dam frustrating to see that paladins bubble can just throw off stacks on certain encounters (horridon, wich is gamebreaking if you ask me) when my simple disarm doesnt do shit to bosses who are iether 1 immume or 2 dont have a weapon. I want that disarm to ALWAYS WORK i want it that if a boss is immume or doesnt a hav a wep equipped that it simple reduces the dmg the boss does to you for a short time. These abilities are just broken and outdated and they need to be upped to day it is because i feel if we keep having these things in the state they are now we wil just become more and more an outdated class with only bandage fixes.

[Nobleshield]

Honestly, I don't get why Disarm can't give a debuff in PVE at the least. It lasts 6s so it could be a nice fat reduction cooldown a la the Paladin's Shield (which is 3s but more frequent). I don't PVP so I'm not quite sure if that would affect PVP (perhaps it could be kept the same in PVP). Spell Reflection is kind of an outlier I think. I'd like to see it work on all bosses (well, all that use spells) and have it become another cooldown we can use to mitigate damage.

[Deleted]

Change Heavy Repercussion Glyph to increase damage done by Shield Slam for 6 seconds after using Shield block or Shield Barrier.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE PROT AOE MORE THEN COMPLETE SHIT.

I would like to see them remove the glyph completely and redistribute our damage.
Annoying being dependent on a glyph and even then doing subpar damage, and the micromanagement of extending the buff with small barriers would be equally annoying.
Or your change and in addition lowering the amount to 10-20% and redistribute our damage, make glyph play a smaller role.

[Calamari]

I would like to see them remove the glyph completely and redistribute our damage.
Annoying being dependent on a glyph and even then doing subpar damage, and the micromanagement of extending the buff with small barriers would be equally annoying.
Or your change and in addition lowering the amount to 10-20% and redistribute our damage, make glyph play a smaller role.

And it's not like there are many prot warriors who'd ever skip Heavy Repercussion or Hold the Line glyphs, seems like one of those things that should just be passive.

[Deleted]

I think the suggestion was more to make Disarm actually USEFUL outside of PVP and trash. I can't remember the last boss that was susceptible to Disarm effects.

You can disarm jalak when bestial wrath and dire call are happening at the same time, but yeh, the usage is slim at best
I would rather they created fight mechanics that made disarm useful / Mandatory vs altering it to a DR cd.

[Pua]

We need more depth, not less. If you can't keep up, YOU need to become more skilled, don't beg them to simplify the class because you don't want to be bothered.

I think you're confusing the definition of "depth".

Also, Thunderclap doesn't reduce attack speed damage anymore and hasn't since the launch of MoP.

dont u dare touch disarm and make it just a 20% damage reduction spell. i like the idea of stripping the target from his weapons and shield, maybe make it apply 20% reduction to targets that dont have weapons/ need them (casters) then yeah sure go for it

I'm not sure you read the opening post properly, or understood it.

My fellow Fury Warrior juts cringed at this idea. He loves that Battle Stance gives solid rage but he definitely knows how to work Berserker Stance well. When you look at it, it really doesn't give you the greatest return on investment, but still it's something.

Yeah, I've been convinced of this fact already.

You guys need to understand that removing abilities because you personally don't find them to be useful isn't a fair way to go about it.

That's not what I'm suggesting, at all. It's not a case of "take this out because I don't like it", it's a case of "look at what this is really adding, why not consolidate?" Honestly, I think you've just looked at the headings rather than the discussions and, if you have, you've not thought about it before deciding you don't like it. Here's why I think this:

Disarm is useful in pvp as well as rare occasions in pve, why remove an iconic warrior ability?

I want Disarm to stay.

If i was going to choose any abilities to remove from warrior, I would choose those that are rarely used/not very effective. Staggering Shout, Demoralizing Banner aren't very effective except in very specific circumstances.

That's what I've gone for. Hell, I loved Rend but it still got the bullet in favour of abilities that warriors, in general, use far, far less.

[Opeth69]

Id like to see a huge overhaul of the class tbh. Perhaps a secondary resource tied to enrage for each spec that changes our abilities/rotation when enraged. OR even make avatar baseline and have it tied to a secondary resource like demonic fury that builds up over time, for prot it could be built up from damage taken or block/absorb amount, for arms it could be based on mastery procs or CS uptime, and for fury it could be based on enrage procs. Once you have enough you could unleash avatar and it would perhaps change spells on your action bar making super buffed versions of them, could add a lot of diversity between specs and make more use of enrage as its pretty dull atm.

[ro9ue]

I'd definitely rather have 10 or less hot keys than the 30 I have now. It's just extra bloat for really no added depth. A lot of your solutions solve this, I'm with you.

My very minor wish for warriors is to bring back Shield Bash for protection warriors. Just have Pummel convert to Shield Bash when a shield is equipped. I love the feel of it when you see your character Leonidas-bash a caster in the face to interrupt a spell. Miss that.


Also not sure why they changed Warriors from Cataclysm. During DS it seemed the overwhelming majority of warriors were having a blast.

[Durandro]

Right now Warriors just feel bland. They should be powerhouse juggernauts, smashing multiple opponants aside and taking huge amounts of punishment.

Changes I'd like to be considered:

1/ Removal of all stances, bake the effects into each spec. Add a new toggle ability to all specs 'Balanced Stance' that gives DPS extra protection at the cost of damage (so you'd use this when taking heavy damage) and tanks extra damage at the cost of protection (used when they have no current target, or their target doesn't hit them very hard). Don't tie any abilties into this stance.

2/ Cleave becomes a toggle ability that cleave auto-attacks enemies in front of them, at the cost of generating considerably less rage.

3/ Charge talent choices need reworking, currently they are very boring. Something along the lines of:
a/ Double Time - Gives two charges of Charge, recharging at the normal rate (so much charge in that sentence...).
b/ Juggernaut Rush - Charge causes x amount of damage and knocks the target back slightly.
c/ Unstoppable - Charge removes snare and immobilise effects.

4/ Self heals need to be looked at. Having a system where rage can directly be spent on health regeneration might be interesting (no cooldown, but spamming it merely refreshes the duration). Making it cost a reasonable amount means a Warrior would have to choose between HoT healing themself or dealing damage. Also keep the actual rate of healing low enough to actually make them killable, obviously!

5/ Remove requirements for shields for various abilities. Maybe even remove any shield-requiring skills from non-tanks completely. Spell Deflection could replaced Spell Reflection, and merely negate one incoming spell regardless of if you have a shield or not - then tanks get Deflection (or make it a talent).

6/ Add more bleeds into the Fury skilltree. It makes more sense to me that they would be rending and slashing their opponants to pieces, not Arms!

7/ Heroic Leap needs to be more special. Perhaps buffing its AoE damage so crashing into a pack of enemies feels more... heroic? I might even consider it being a targetable ability, though it would remove a lot of its mobility utility so I'm hesitant to suggest that.

8/ Shouts need to be more important! Having them generate extra mini-buffs would be interesting, as well as extra rage. Having a Warrior shouting semi-regularly throughout a fight appeals to me for some reason. Having a ranged 'shout' attack would be pretty awesome too, perhaps replacing Heroic Throw (since hurling your weapon at your enemy always seems odd to me)?

9/ Perhaps make Demoralising Shout a focused single target ability, and Thunderclap can have a built-in snare effect (with a longer cooldown, obviously)?

10/ Allow Fury to viably use a two handed and one handed weapon at the same time instead of two of either. Might be even harder to balance, of course!

[Bigbazz]

If it was my choice i'd put heroic strike back on the global cooldown and blend it in with the old heroic strike glyph (+10 rage on crit), and I'd revert rage generation to the pre-Cataclysm model where rage generation was based on damage, when gear upgrades made you feel like you were doing more damage because of the extra rage allowing you to do more attacks. Along with this I very much dislike the MOP model for stances, they gave us the DK system when they had a perfectly awesome and frankly much better system before, I would bring back that.

Buffs : pre Cataclysm and especially during TBC each class/spec had unique buffs that gave them a unique selling point to a raid, with nowadays every class being generic as fuck in this sense yes it does make it easier to put together a raid but it also makes it boring as fuck, despite these changes they haven't made raiding better and with the old system where classes and their buffs were more unique did not make raiding worse, balanced well the game could be so much more interesting, some minor crossover is ok but what we have today you might aswell remove buffs from the game completely and just give them to you whenever you enter a raid as a raidwide buff.

I think there needs to be more crossover between specs too, back in the pre cata days specifically it was possible to make a variety of different hybrid specs for different classes, the Arms/Fury hybrid in TBC was the most popular way to play arms and was created by the players, not intended by the developers. The current talent system is cool but you're still forced into a certain playstyle, it isnt a true hybrid system whereby you can craft your own playstyle.

In TBC (I know, here I go again) you could play as pure arms, arms/fury hybrid, aswell as dual wield fury and 2handed fury and all of them were viable (though pure arms was weak) and all of them played different.

Along with that i'd revert the only str or only agil on weapons so that items can have agil + attackpower again (or some other solution), this would make more crossover on items giving you more options, be nice to be able to use fists again. In TBC for example there weren't "warrior" weapons or "rogue/shammy weapons" (casting aside that rogues could not use axes) there were just melee dps weapons, it was interesting because it meant you didn't simply see everyone with the same weapons. Hell, before the patch to make whirlwind hit with both weapons it was commonplace to see warriors using a dagger offhand, and there were still plenty around after the change too.

[ulfserk]

If Fury's crit scaling is going to stay the way it is, we should provide the 5% crit buff again.

[Deleted]

Froma a pure prot warrior POV, I don't see the need to reinvent the class again. If they embedded offensive stats so gearing would feel better, and reworked the class just enough to not feel like that addition is not a patch, I would be more than happy to play the 5.0 prot warr on the next expansion, getting a couple of new toys as always, of course.

But I guess that their POV is that they need to change things around to keep classes fresh and interesting.

[Durandro]

Along with that i'd revert the only str or only agil on weapons so that items can have agil + attackpower again (or some other solution), this would make more crossover on items giving you more options, be nice to be able to use fists again. In TBC for example there weren't "warrior" weapons or "rogue/shammy weapons" (casting aside that rogues could not use axes) there were just melee dps weapons, it was interesting because it meant you didn't simply see everyone with the same weapons. Hell, before the patch to make whirlwind hit with both weapons it was commonplace to see warriors using a dagger offhand, and there were still plenty around after the change too.

I've be perfectly okay with them removing primary stats from weapons altogether, and compensating them with healthy doses of straight up attack power or spellpower (and maybe bonus crit/dodge/parry, or just hard bake it into something else).

There's a considerable bloat demand for certain weapon types (probably the biggest demand is for strength two handers), and next to zero demand for others (agility daggers only being used by Rogues, and not even all specs).

Removing the primary stats means more variety and choice as well, and opens up future possibilities (strength bow users, for example).

Heck, if people want those primary stats as well then maybe add a new style of meta gem that only works in weapons that gives a huge dose of stats (or a % scaler so it remains viable in later tiers, and your weapon feels 'better' even with different upgrades later on).