[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[Floopa]

DPS

I'm only half joking. I wish all healers got something similar to... well, maybe not atonement, more like eminence, but obviously appropriate for the spec. With a disc and a mistweavers in 10s it feels like raiding with an extra dps.

In fairness FWing isn't really a viable method to heal.

[Simulacrum]

In fairness FWing isn't really a viable method to heal.

I guess it wouldn't work well with a hpaladin toolkit at all, no.

But a man can dream.

[bouchbagfett]

The chances of EF not overhealing are slim in a 25m situation, so that makes EF weak.

Compared with holy radiance and light of dawn spam do you think it is much different? It is more over-heal than judging...

Smart heals are already sniping our spot heals and shields are already healing our HR and LoD/EF spam. EF worked because it gave us a shield to compete with priests. No matter what we spam we are over healing much of the time.

[Cybnext]

I'd like to see something else added to SH to make it heal, or shield or something else.

Having said that though, I feel like they're just going to have to continue to cram things into a single talent and it'll just be bloated.

[Freia]

Compared with holy radiance and light of dawn spam do you think it is much different? It is more over-heal than judging...

Smart heals are already sniping our spot heals and shields are already healing our HR and LoD/EF spam. EF worked because it gave us a shield to compete with priests. No matter what we spam we are over healing much of the time.

We would get little overheal out of SS and the way it looks now we would get more mana efficiency and thus more heals cast/shields stacked out of SH. Yea i say that would make a big difference if the EF hot is mostly overhealing because then we are getting nothing out of it at that point compared to the others.

I also don't really get your comment on being shocked when we see the top guilds do 25m testing, you think the paladins are going to be using EF when we have top 25m paladins in this thread telling you it is crap in its current state on the PTR?

[Cybnext]

Compared with holy radiance and light of dawn spam do you think it is much different? It is more over-heal than judging...

Smart heals are already sniping our spot heals and shields are already healing our HR and LoD/EF spam. EF worked because it gave us a shield to compete with priests. No matter what we spam we are over healing much of the time.

But Holy Radiance and LoD will stack a mastery shield even if they overheal. The EF hot is just going to overheal and do nothing

[Dubalicious]

The EF hot is just going to overheal and do nothing

Beacon transfer, which is slightly more than nothing.

[Deleted]

Without over-healing EF is our strongest heal rotationally still. Per cast it is the same as Sacred Shield (which should scare you). We weren't OP before the Mastery nerf, but they nerfed anyway, and the buffs to our other tier 45 talents still don't beat the nerfed EF. I think some people here are going to be shocked when they start seeing what the meters look like during the 25man testing from highly skilled guilds.

Im not going to be shocked at all. EF might be best for 1 fight and then again it probably wont be considering SH allows you to reforge out of all your spirit. On all other fights we will be using SH/SS with 100% certianty.

You cant just say that x talent does more healing when in reality all that healing is going to be overhealing. Oh and EF does not even come close to a SS per cast as you have to compare SS + LoD with EF and not just SS with EF.

[bouchbagfett]

I also don't really get your comment on being shocked when we see the top guilds do 25m testing, you think the paladins are going to be using EF when we have top 25m paladins in this thread telling you it is crap in its current state on the PTR?

Oh I agree EF is crap. My argument is that SH and SS aren't good enough to make up for what we lost and I don't expect anyone to be using EF. Why would you when you have to substitute EF for LoD. I guess my point is although SH is a different/neat/old mechanic we shouldn't be at all excited about it increasing our output compared to live.

[Freia]

Oh I agree EF is crap. My argument is that SH and SS aren't good enough to make up for what we lost and I don't expect anyone to be using EF. Why would you when you have to substitute EF for LoD. I guess my point is although SH is a different/neat/old mechanic we shouldn't be at all excited about it increasing our output compared to live.

I agree the talent changes and other buffs have not made up for the EF nerf. I am sure the majority in this thread agree. I would also rather them compensate by changes to our base toolkit over just continuing to make changes to the 45 talent tier.

[bouchbagfett]

I used our last Ra-den log to see what EF was doing for me with the shield. This fight probably has the highest usage of shields from the HoT and even the HoT ticks themselves. Other fights would probably be less of a nerf than for this one.

Log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4546&e=4863
I assumed 33% mastery.



As you can see it is a 6.92% nerf to total healing to remove the stacking of the shield. If you fully replace EF you will have to get 16.8% more healing from your tier 45 talent to break even with live...

I mess up math plenty, so let me know my mistakes. Also what is not modeled would be any shields from HR that are extended by having the EF's rolling that would not have been used otherwise. Not sure how to model that. I bet it is significant but probably not enormous since HR is a wet noodle heal and EF will be rolling on only 2-4 people to add that HR shield that might not have been used, but honestly who goes 15sec without getting hit on Ra-Den?

Full link: http://fullspectrumholypally.wordpre...eld-was-worth/

[Deleted]

I assumed 33% mastery.

Assume 50% at least.

Edit. And as i said in a previous post, that loss is a pure spread absorb loss, the best sort of healing possible(spread,unsnipeable, refreshes IH etc). We're not even close to getting back what we lost on the PTR compared to 5.3, and then there are other buffs to the other healers.

[bouchbagfett]

Assume 50% at least.

50% Mastery. 20% loss in healing... Blizz said they didn't want to nerf us. They have some serious make up work to do.

[Keiyra]

As you can see it is a 6.92% nerf to total healing to remove the stacking of the shield. If you fully replace EF you will have to get 16.8% more healing from your tier 45 talent to break even with live...

Wouldn't you also need to take into account that the holy power you spent on EF, could be spent on WoG or LoD if you didn't take EF? So you need 16.8% more healing from the tier 45 tier talent + X amount of casts of LoD/WoG? ( I agree that to replace it, the total output would be the 16.8%, but that not need come entirely from the talent choice is all)

[Pasture]

I'm not expecting an update for us on the next PTR. The SH and SS were reasonably big changes in how we might play and I don't think there's enough data to see how they're working. Most people are rolling with a SH mastery build. Not enough trying haste or SS. I think we'll have another week of raid testing before we get an update.

We haven't been atrocious on 10s but I'm expecting the results of 25s to be hilarious.

[monikasun88]

Wouldn't you also need to take into account that the holy power you spent on EF, could be spent on WoG or LoD if you didn't take EF? So you need 16.8% more healing from the tier 45 tier talent + X amount of casts of LoD/WoG? ( I agree that to replace it, the total output would be the 16.8%, but that not need come entirely from the talent choice is all)

The value under Not Having HoT + Loss of Shield in the After EF Nerf category is the value of using WoG. If the HP was used rather on LoD (as would probably be the realistic case), the % Nerf would not be as large.
Edit: I don't mean that using LoD would make this OK (before there's any misinterpretation).
Edit2: Does anyone know why they don't put gem or enchant vendors on the PTR? It's extremely frustrating to be improperly gemmed/enchanted for a talent build.

[Deleted]

That's 20% nerf if we go with no 45 talent and only use WoG...Imo we are on par with live healing in the current PTR version because we have a ton more mastery, more haste and shields are always refreshed by HR. The problems will be on 25 man spread healing if the damage is not constant, as our LoD shields will constantly fall off. In 10 man the chance of IH on anyone dropping is very low.

But here is the biggest problem I currently see: even though we are at about the same level every other class has revived buffs except discs and mistweavers who were already OP on live. Mistweavers, druids will be kings of spread out healing and very good at hugged healing, Shamans are beyond broken at hugged healing on 25 and discs will be very good in both situations. Where does that leave us?

[Lucyrotten]

Edit2: Does anyone know why they don't put gem or enchant vendors on the PTR? It's extremely frustrating to be improperly gemmed/enchanted for a talent build.

All the premades come with tons of gems and enchant mats and every possible pattern for both profs. It's a little clunky to be sure but we just stocked our PTR guild bank with gems and scrolls.

- - - Updated - - -

Where does that leave us?

Someone has the run the water bottles in from the sidelines!

[Deleted]

That's 20% nerf if we go with no 45 talent and only use WoG...Imo we are on par with live healing in the current PTR version because we have a ton more mastery, more haste and shields are always refreshed by HR. The problems will be on 25 man spread healing if the damage is not constant, as our LoD shields will constantly fall off. In 10 man the chance of IH on anyone dropping is very low.

But here is the biggest problem I currently see: even though we are at about the same level every other class has revived buffs except discs and mistweavers who were already OP on live. Mistweavers, druids will be kings of spread out healing and very good at hugged healing, Shamans are beyond broken at hugged healing on 25 and discs will be very good in both situations. Where does that leave us?

I disagree with the first point, we're not on part with our live version on the PTR. Maybe with the 553 amplification trinket+stacked encounter+SH we are on part with our current selves, but we're nowhere near current+553 amplification trinket.

[Deleted]

I dont know about anyone else but I would kill to get the spell dps trinket:


Obviously those of us playing in top guilds have 0 chance of ever getting it and we wont even be able to coin it so thats quite sad.