[Holy] Patch 5.4 PTR - Changes Discussion

[cakin]

Well over in the Monk forums they are joyous about it, that they can continue having a complete disregard for the stat priority of a normal healer. I do find it amusing they are spending so much time trying to balance us with the removal of IH from EF, but they think balancing MW mana regen too big of a task for a patch when they are changing our style of healing completely in the last patch (Major content patch atleast).

That's kind of what I was referring too. Monks were in a good place before they were reforging out of mana early in the xpac. Do they really think they would drop that much by having to keep spirit, I just don't see it.

PS. Nerfing mana regen end of expac is not an excuse. They're changing our regen. So frustrating.

[Freia]

Yep I agree with voidspark. Pathetic.

[IxilaFA]

Yep I agree with voidspark. Pathetic.

Blizzard's contradictions and hypocrisy is seriously starting to piss me off. First it's Shaman: "All Shaman need to use HTT so we gave it to them baseline. All Pallies do not need to use Eternal Flame. We don't even want them to have a HOT. Why did we give them a HoT talent and leave it unchecked for 3 patches? Good question!"

Now it's Monks: "It's too late in the patch cycle to fix Monk mana regen (just an issue of tweaking a few numbers), but we're going to completely gut the only ability that keeps Holy Paladin competitive in HC raiding right before the last tier."

Seriously, at this point Blizzard, cut your losses, roll back our nerfs, and just let us limp along as a somewhat clunky healer that has to spam themselves OOM by the end of every fight to keep up in healing. We're not even overpowered right now. My guild is still progressing through HC Throne of Thunder and I find myself often top 3 in heals but rarely do I beat the Resto druid or Disc Priest. Don't change our entire class at the end of an expansion cycle, just chop it all up and start from scratch for 6.0. Or hell I'd even take getting significant reworks in 5.5, if it meant two months of unmolested healing.

[dar3652]

I'm curious, for those that have a MW, is it that big a difference or was that big a fit being raised?

Edit: MW as a MS. I only play mine sparingly and not on the PTR.

mana tea nerf wouldnt have mattered for heroic geared mistweavers, it just would have hurt undergeared mws and mws without HLG + LMG and hurt mw in pvp

problem with mw regen is due to RPPM procs in HLG + LMG (and being able to regen mana during a LMG proc).

regarding low spirit and "not gearing as blizzard intended": for non-mana battery shaman we'll see low spirit on shaman next patch to stack throughput stats + low spirit priests (a lot get away with running under or around 8k currently) + pallies running low spirit if they use a HS + judgement + HR -> LoD rotation

pretty sure blizzard has screwed up spirit too much due to any class being able to stack haste and regen from HLG + LMG (and a few classes being able to cast mana return spells during meta procs) and are just going to try to fix it with 6.0

[xiloclipse]

So I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but since we're talking about mana regen the DP changes also mean that it doesn't have any synergy with hymn at all, especially significant in 25m, though even our 10m ran 2 disc 1 hpally a good bit.

It's almost insulting to hear that they consider monk mana regen, and the total lack of spirit "too big a problem to tackle this tier" when hpally was effectively gutted over what seems to be a "class concept" issue with EF and hots. At this point I'm planning on playing MW, and will be pleasantly surprised if something changes to make hpally viable before live, but I just can't count on it. I feel for those that don't have this luxury. The class really has been killed atm. Maybe cloaks will be released, and they'll just be magical for us, but I doubt it. I feel like we're getting screwed two different ways, we can't keep up with our current live version, and we sure as hell can't keep up with the new an improved shaman, priest, mistweaver, or druid. I mean, am I wrong in percieving that if anything, disc has only recieved buffs to their mana this PTR? What about the recent twist change? Maybe it's in anticipation of the cloak not being as good for them, but idk. The jade wind change looks to be interesting, and potentially give MW even more power, we don't even need to touch the spirit thing. Maybe that just means they won't address spirit with the mana tea nerf, but I could have swore I read many times that devs really didn't like how MW and disc were running without spirit, and would fix it. Even if these classes did have to grab spirit, they would still be in great shape.
Sorry if it sounds like just a bunch of bitching, but I feel like the numbers are all there to see, but devs have a very different idea of our throughput and what progression viable looks like. It seems as though devs feel that it is completely acceptable to chock this one up as a loss and come back to re-evaluate hpally for xpac (maybe a buff about 6 weeks into live if we're lucky).

The class honestly needs a bottom up rework without EF, or a very good bandaid fix that leaves us still feeling clunky, but capable of throughput.

I just don't see us getting anything major, and if we don't get anything major, it's lights out.

[Deleted]

Alright guys, this has been a very long and exhaustive conversation. I want it to continue, but we NEED it to stay on topic with the 5.4 PTR Changes/Discussion about the PALADIN class.

No more hidden agendas for your class of choice, no more pulling off topic with talks of other classes. Keep it classy. We're all welcome here, but the infighting is getting tiresome. Can't we just be friends?

If you wish to discuss healing as it is and it's general synergy between classes, please, take it to either Raids & Dungeons or General Discussion.

h..hey guys.... so about those paladins...

[Freia]

mana tea nerf wouldnt have mattered for heroic geared mistweavers, it just would have hurt undergeared mws and mws without HLG + LMG and hurt mw in pvp

problem with mw regen is due to RPPM procs in HLG + LMG (and being able to regen mana during a LMG proc).

regarding low spirit and "not gearing as blizzard intended": for non-mana battery shaman we'll see low spirit on shaman next patch to stack throughput stats + low spirit priests (a lot get away with running under or around 8k currently) + pallies running low spirit if they use a HS + judgement + HR -> LoD rotation

pretty sure blizzard has screwed up spirit too much due to any class being able to stack haste and regen from HLG + LMG (and a few classes being able to cast mana return spells during meta procs) and are just going to try to fix it with 6.0

Nope them making no changes to mistweaver while gutting our class in the last tier of the expansion is horseshit. We were the 2nd lowest on output live and the supposed compensation doesn't even get us back up to live level. They easily could have taken the crit regen scaling away from monks. It does against their reasoning they gave for int/mana change, having a throughput stat double as a regen stat. And they should have taken jab away from the meta. It would not have helped completely but it would have been a start.

Pallies using low spirit with SH and still being the bottom healer? Yea thats relevant (/sarcasm). I wouldn't really care about monk regen at all, the whole thing just goes against what they are doing for us. Compensate us properly or roll back our nerfs and wait for the next expansion.

[Floopa]

Blizzard are right. The change would've done nothing but screwed over everyone but the people the nerf was aimed at. It does require going back and changing pretty much everything about MW healing. Seriously, every MW worth their weight knew the change wouldn't go live that's why you didn't see much complaining from "hardcores" about it.

[Deleted]

So I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but since we're talking about mana regen the DP changes also mean that it doesn't have any synergy with hymn at all, especially significant in 25m, though even our 10m ran 2 disc 1 hpally a good bit.

It's almost insulting to hear that they consider monk mana regen, and the total lack of spirit "too big a problem to tackle this tier" when hpally was effectively gutted over what seems to be a "class concept" issue with EF and hots. At this point I'm planning on playing MW, and will be pleasantly surprised if something changes to make hpally viable before live, but I just can't count on it. I feel for those that don't have this luxury. The class really has been killed atm. Maybe cloaks will be released, and they'll just be magical for us, but I doubt it. I feel like we're getting screwed two different ways, we can't keep up with our current live version, and we sure as hell can't keep up with the new an improved shaman, priest, mistweaver, or druid. I mean, am I wrong in percieving that if anything, disc has only recieved buffs to their mana this PTR? What about the recent twist change? Maybe it's in anticipation of the cloak not being as good for them, but idk. The jade wind change looks to be interesting, and potentially give MW even more power, we don't even need to touch the spirit thing. Maybe that just means they won't address spirit with the mana tea nerf, but I could have swore I read many times that devs really didn't like how MW and disc were running without spirit, and would fix it. Even if these classes did have to grab spirit, they would still be in great shape.
Sorry if it sounds like just a bunch of bitching, but I feel like the numbers are all there to see, but devs have a very different idea of our throughput and what progression viable looks like. It seems as though devs feel that it is completely acceptable to chock this one up as a loss and come back to re-evaluate hpally for xpac (maybe a buff about 6 weeks into live if we're lucky).

The class honestly needs a bottom up rework without EF, or a very good bandaid fix that leaves us still feeling clunky, but capable of throughput.

I just don't see us getting anything major, and if we don't get anything major, it's lights out.

Amen brother.. We were the only ones to receive this treatment and it was totaly unnecessary..

They need to man up.. Admit the mistakes they did regarding EF.. Revert the changes so we have a competitive EF spell and buff SH and SS so they can be as good or better than EF for certain figths..

And they need to stop throwing sand to our eyes and telling us we are just fine and that the changes wont turn us into the worst healer in the next patch when everyone that did a bit of math knows the truth..

[Freia]

Blizzard are right. The change would've done nothing but screwed over everyone but the people the nerf was aimed at. It does require going back and changing pretty much everything about MW healing. Seriously, every MW worth their weight knew the change wouldn't go live that's why you didn't see much complaining from "hardcores" about it.

And? Making paladins viable at this point requires game changes or rework of our toolkit but you don't see that happening. All we get are comments we were fine before EF(as in previous expansions) so we will be fine afterwards.

The point is that it is too big of an undertaking to try to fix our healing in the last tier of the expansion, same as the monk changes. But they chose to go with the paladin changes anyways and to do a half ass job of it.

[Floopa]

And? Making paladins viable at this point requires game changes or rework of our toolkit but you don't see that happening. All we get are comments we were fine before EF(as in previous expansions) so we will be fine afterwards.

The point is that it is too big of an undertaking to try to fix our healing in the last tier of the expansion, same as the monk changes. But they chose to go with the paladin changes anyways and to do a half ass job of it.

Hence why I said a few pages back that Blizzard are probably thinking "screw it, healing balance is at a point where it can't be fixed, we'll let 5.4 go to hell with bandage fixes and fix it properly for the next expanson". Sucks to hear, but it's pretty much true. But it's not like Blizzard have ignored Paladins entirely, if you want to feel frustrated how about you spend the entire expansion with the most worthless mastery to ever grace this game.

[Deleted]

Holy paladins will still be viable due to the awesome utility kit we have, but I'm not looking forward to next patch as it is right now ._.

[Deleted]

Ok did some more testing out of the new talents yesterday - just seeing what rotation etc would be like stacking haste + SH, and also seeing how mastery stacking or haste stacking affects SS.

Without being in a 25m raid is difficult to judge completely, and I'm just repeating the view of everyone here it seems, but yea...looks like I'm rerolling to priest ASAP.

I'm not in a hardcore guild but we will hopefully be killing at least 1 hc / week which for me means I needs to be able to do the business if we drop healers for a dps check.

1) IMO judgement for SH is a complete waste of time. The only reason I would take this talent is because I HAVE TO - ie. we are running around so much the whole time that I might as well take the talent that gets me some HP whilst running. Otherwise why would I waste all those GCDs on 0 hps.

2) SS looks like it might be ok for 25m but really I just don't know until we see how hard bosses hit on 25hc. Looking at the boss abilities atm (which aren't even PTR tested yet) I guess it could make pallies passable 2-3 tank healers. However not nearly as good as druids will be, or shamans maybe (?)

3) EF now seems a waste of time because our other healers will be rejuv,mists,renew spamming every1 anyway - not even mentioning disc pre-shielding - and definitely not mentioning the complete HPS nuclear bombs shamans going to be when we stacked up.

I know this is a(nother) whiny post but am kind of hoping the dev's read this thread.

What's the best way to contact GC / devs to lobby? On twitter? Or is there a way I can post on those blue forums I see some people doing?

- - - Updated - - -

Holy paladins will still be viable due to the awesome utility kit we have, but I'm not looking forward to next patch as it is right now ._.

Sorry, but what EXACTLY does a holy paladin bring in terms of utility that a Ret or Prot pally doesn't.

Please list the unique abilities that we have as holy. Thanks.

Any half decent ret/prot pally uses all their Salvs/Sacs/BOPs/Freedoms when called...so as long as you bring at least 2 or 3 paladins (of ANY spec) to a raid then you should be covered (unless there is some serious BOP cheesing again)

That's not even mentioning they got the same raid CD as holy....

This is 1 reason why they should make aura mastery better for holy, either affect all types of dmg or increase it to 40% or something....

[Freia]

Hence why I said a few pages back that Blizzard are probably thinking "screw it, healing balance is at a point where it can't be fixed, we'll let 5.4 go to hell with bandage fixes and fix it properly for the next expanson". Sucks to hear, but it's pretty much true. But it's not like Blizzard have ignored Paladins entirely, if you want to feel frustrated how about you spend the entire expansion with the most worthless mastery to ever grace this game.

Seriously? Your mastery sucks but you still are doing extremely well healing-wise despite that. Saying that it is ok that paladins are released not viable because of monk mastery being bad is pathetic. One bad stat vs not being viable at all is not even close to comparable.

Holy paladins will still be viable due to the awesome utility kit we have, but I'm not looking forward to next patch as it is right now ._.

And what "awesome utility" is that? Devo? BoP, HoS, etc. and all the other utility brought by every spec of paladin? That utility means nothing if our throughput is weak.

[Deleted]

Funny how blizzard have so much time to try and "balance" our class and other healers, which trying to bring others like discs and MW down to a level of sensible is "too much of a task". They want to take a long hard look at this game and WoL, if you think the priority lies with balancing one class mechanic as opposed to another classes complete design then your having extreme awareness issues. It makes me so mad that they sit and let this happen, while other classes can laugh in your face at the revert to nerfs they get.

[Tiberria]

Seriously? Your mastery sucks but you still are doing extremely well healing-wise despite that. Saying that it is ok that paladins are released not viable because of monk mastery being bad is pathetic. One bad stat vs not being viable at all is not even close to comparable.

Actually, Shaman mastery is actually far more useless in realistic raid situations than Monk mastery, and we have done pretty poorly this entire expansion, partially because of it (although hopefully that changes in 5.4).

[Deleted]

Whether or not your class' mastery is good means nothing if the rest of your toolkit is borderline overpowered. Mastery is all holy paladins have.

[Tiberria]

Whether or not your class' mastery is good means nothing if the rest of your toolkit is borderline overpowered. Mastery is all holy paladins have.

Which is ironic, because for most of Cata, Illuminated Healing was widely considered the worst mastery in the game. Building a class around being completely dependent on a mastery is pretty terrible design.

[Floopa]

I didn't justify MWs poor mastery as a reason why Paladins are going to suck next patch. I said Blizzard have been working on them. Hopefully they'll make Devo Aura reduce all damage, I would like to see that. To say that Blizzard are leaving Paladins in the dark through is totally wrong, they obviously aren't.

[Kyuuseishu]

Which is ironic, because for most of Cata, Illuminated Healing was widely considered the worst mastery in the game. Building a class around being completely dependent on a mastery is pretty terrible design.

Which is why paladins fell back onto haste since mastery was that bad. With the introduction of static mana pools, the need for mana efficiency and the way EF interacted with our mastery kind of put us into this position really.

I didn't justify MWs poor mastery as a reason why Paladins are going to suck next patch. I said Blizzard have been working on them. Hopefully they'll make Devo Aura reduce all damage, I would like to see that. To say that Blizzard are leaving Paladins in the dark through is totally wrong, they obviously aren't.

But the sheer change they are putting paladins through is not warranted for a final major patch, yes they are trying to make up for what they've taken away but they have put too much focus on the 45 talents and not the toolkit as a whole. They haven't left paladins in the dark, they've just chosen the wrong time and put too much focus on the wrong things.