Let's talk about Archimonde's Vengeance

[Jessicka]

It's the 'other' talent on the 90 tree that no one takes and no one talks about because it's accepted as bad without dispute or discussion. We all know it's bad, but when GC said recently that 'pressing AV during the big AE' is skill, and that in 5.4 it wont reflect, I think it's obvious that its underutilisation needs explaining much more clearly. So here goes with a nice bullet pointed list:

- It's not always clear what it does and doen't proc from because:
a) Environmental damage like the ubiquitous 'standing in lava' doesn't, as there is no source to reflect it back to.
b) "The big AE" is sometimes cast by the boss, and sometimes it's just a timed effect.
- "The big AE" is usually mitigated by cooldowns, which cooldowns your raid group is using will impact tremendously on the overall effect of AV.
- It promotes standing in bad regardless due to this lack of clarity.
- Used actively it adds to button bloat and begs the question of whether to use it or a defensive cooldown for the Big AE (I'm sure your healers love you for the former).
- The overall effect is numerically intangiable. Passively it's like 2 additional fillers over the fight and 'on use', I can't imagine it being much more.

Pre-5.1 the reason we took it was a lack of alternatives, we knew it was bad then and it's still bad now. The fact is, that 'on use' I'd rather press Unending Resolve or Healthstone than be considering whether this big damage counts as boss attack and will offer a sub-1% overall DPS boost. In fact, it's not even a consideration players should be tempted to consider since it's promoting bad and dangerous play.

The talent needs a complete overhaul.

[jackvii]

It's the 'other' talent on the 90 tree that no one takes and no one talks about because it's accepted as bad without dispute or discussion. We all know it's bad, but when GC said recently that 'pressing AV during the big AE' is skill, and that in 5.4 it wont reflect, I think it's obvious that its underutilisation needs explaining much more clearly. So here goes with a nice bullet pointed list:

It was really the PvP talent of the tier, the on-use effect was supposed to be a temporary deterrent. During beta when the damage ratio was 50%, that was enough damage to keep someone off you for 8 seconds.

Then everyone stood in fire in beta and it was nerfed back down to 30% and then 25% where it's almost barely noticeable in PvP.

[evertonbelmontt]

Pre-5.1 the reason we took it was a lack of alternatives, we knew it was bad then and it's still bad now. The fact is, that 'on use' I'd rather press Unending Resolve or Healthstone than be considering whether this big damage counts as boss attack and will offer a sub-1% overall DPS boost. In fact, it's not even a consideration players should be tempted to consider since it's promoting bad and dangerous play.

The talent needs a complete overhaul.

True. But let me remind you of this: AV don't have a GCD, last I tried. You can press Unending Resolve or Healthstone even altogether with AV if you want to, it will work. People at PVP used it with DB at first, but then everyone realized that the damage output of it is... ridiculous. It was better to take MF as demon because you could hit one or two Gul'dans in enemies healers while targeting DPS and it would outdps that AV return already.

Or KJC as affl. "OH MAH GÓD 99% ARE TAKIMG ITI111!1!"

Some things that is good to know:

AV is affected by PVPower, but if it was already crap with high PVPower, now it's.. the same crap, but worse.

Some people say AV bypasses defenses (still get shielded by imunity) completelly (defensive CDs that do damage reduction and passive damage reduction) but I can't show any data for this.

Last but not least... at some time, it worked with soul link with awesome utility. I imagine this expansion it would be very good for soloing, but still a very very limited talent, needs to change or be buffed to be competitive in PVP.
Change it to 50% 2min (at least you can try and kill a huntard, they won't even notice the return effect hahah) or decrease CD to 1min for starters.

[Deleted]

I don't know, I play Demo mostly so I rarely use KjC and MF isn't very good on some bosses either.

I use AV for Heroic Twins for instance, I kinda like it there for the Nuclear Inferno thingy.

It's not good, it's not even almost good but meh!

[RaoBurning]

Perhaps a small adjustment. I know Blizz is trying to work away from passives in our tier, but maybe make it like Hunter's Mark, in a sense. Last target hit by your Shadow Bolt/Haunt/Immolate(CB, maybe; the aoe makes this hard for Destro) gets a debuff, takes X% (low) of damage you receive from any source.

Or make it an activated ability on a somewhat short cool down and buff the damage percent to, 25% or so. If it copies damage instead of reflecting it the source issue goes away. Hopefully the cool down makes it desirable to save for unavoidable AoE and not to just stand in goo.

That might at least make it worth thinking about.

Addendum: Thinking about using the second option while being bursted on by my Mage buddy makes me giddy.

[Deleted]

I use AV for Heroic Twins for instance, I kinda like it there for the Nuclear Inferno thingy.

Can you actually reflect damage onto Suen? Seeing as she is immune/dodge/parry/miss mode while she's channeling it.
I never tested it, but it would tell us if it acts as a dot or as a specific hit.

Oh and AV is terribad because it goes against everything a good player should be doing (minimizing damage intake, while maximizing damage output)
The talent itself makes as little sense as vengeance does... astonishingly bad gamedesign

[RaoBurning]

Can you actually reflect damage onto Suen? Seeing as she is immune/dodge/parry/miss mode while she's channeling it.
I never tested it, but it would tell us if it acts as a dot or as a specific hit.

Oh and AV is terribad because it goes against everything a good player should be doing (minimizing damage intake, while maximizing damage output)
The talent itself makes as little sense as vengeance does... astonishingly bad gamedesign

I was healing the other day and my paladin tank intentionally was standing in some awful green goo and said, "It's okay, it makes me do more damage."

He's not wrong, but he should be.

[Baracuda]

It hits like a wet noodle in PvP and the other choices are obsolete on PTR :/

[Deleted]

I was healing the other day and my paladin tank intentionally was standing in some awful green goo and said, "It's okay, it makes me do more damage."

He's not wrong, but he should be.

In Ji-Kun? I think the tanks are supposed to soak the pools, well it's not must but gives you more space in the platform.

[Deleted]

In Ji-Kun? I think the tanks are supposed to soak the pools, well it's not must but gives you more space in the platform.

We have our Blood DKs and random raidmembers with def cds available doing that. Doing it to clear the platform or doing it to boost your dps are two different things though, although they yield the same result. It's the mentality that the mechanic brings with it that I hate...

[RaoBurning]

In Ji-Kun? I think the tanks are supposed to soak the pools, well it's not must but gives you more space in the platform.

Oh, no. Pardon my vagueness. It was just some pally in a 5 man. Gate of the setting sun, I believe. All the same though, taking extra damage to boost dps is kind of counter intuitive.

[Deleted]

In Ji-Kun? I think the tanks are supposed to soak the pools, well it's not must but gives you more space in the platform.

I think his point is that you shouldn't be encouraged to stand in fire on the ground to do more damage, and it's a stance blizzard agree on (hence vengeance nerfs and they've talked about removing it from ground damage that is intended to be avoided).

Which is one of the reasons I hate AV, when your role is a damage dealer, and a talent encourages you to take more damage to do more of your job - that just seems wrong to begin with, before going into how weak it is.

MF and KJC I can put up with, I like neither, but they can be worked with - AV really needs removing and replacing imo, though seems to be the one that's getting the least attention, seemingly content to leave it as garbage to justify nerfing the other two so that it can be a choice.

I'm hoping next expansion results in the whole tier being scrapped and rebuilt with a cohesive theme (ideally our guardian pets, because then the infernal can be made usable, instead of a choice between "do you want a doomguard, or do you want to not do damage", add the Pit Lord into the mix, since I've seen a lot of wishlisting for that since the green fire qline, there's your 3 beasties, go balance them into something interesting), but regardless of what it is - I don't think you can have a talent tier that's as wildly different as our current lvl 90 one for a pure dps class, unless you're fine accepting that one talent WILL be taken 99% of the time, and blizzard seem fairly clear they're not happy with that.

[xskarma]

It's the mentality that the mechanic brings with it that I hate...

I agree. I just don't see how they can retool the basic premise of damage reflection in a good way, without us standing in poo at some point cause it's a DPS increase (while having the healing to make sure we still beat the encounter).

I'd love to see suggestions though, if people have them.

[Jessicka]

You can press Unending Resolve or Healthstone even altogether with AV if you want to, it will work.

Perhaps so, it's still wrong to be pressing players to be considering DPS ahead of survival under such circumstances. Obviously you could also just macro it, but where's the skill in that?

We have our Blood DKs and random raidmembers with def cds available doing that. Doing it to clear the platform or doing it to boost your dps are two different things though, although they yield the same result. It's the mentality that the mechanic brings with it that I hate...

Again, here's some of that confusion slipping in. AV wont proc from those pools, the damage source isn't tied to Ji'kun; same sort of thing applies to a lot of raid encounters. That people might be tempted to take more damage under the illusion that they might do more, is a terrible mindset to promote.

I don't think anyone wants to see threads in a few months asking "So, what do I need to get hit by to get the most from AV?"

[Goosy]

I would like to see our last tier talents be like this:

Summon Pit Lord 40sec duration on a 5min CD - Dealing cleave damage to 2-3 targets.
Summon Infernal 40sec duration on a 5min CD - Dealing AoE to all targets in a big radius
Summon Doomguard 40 sec duration on a 5min CD - Dealing singletarget damage

Depending of the boss you are facing u´ll choose one of these 3 guardian demons.
Idk how to sort all the numbers, but imo it would be really nice to choose between these 3 and have different demons instead of sitting on that Doomguard all the time.

EDIT:
I wouldn´t even mind put the cooldown lower on a 3min CD and lower the damage. Just having the possibility to summon these badboys more often would be so much more satisfying imo. Also it would help alot when it comes to smaller/bigger adds spawning or Burn phase singletarget damage if needed.
Use em 2 or even 3 times during a boss fight man that would be sooooo nice.

Atm we´re only using the infernal while questing/grinding or if there is an AoE pack before a boss and we know we´ll have the CD back before we get to the boss.
The Doomguard we either use on the pull during BL/TW/Hero or wait until that 20% extra damage.
Now we press 1 button on a 10min CD gaining some dps during the time its up and thats it. Feels kinda meeeh if you ask me.

[Deleted]

If we all stick with AV for a couple of months they might actualy make it worse!

[evertonbelmontt]

I agree. I just don't see how they can retool the basic premise of damage reflection in a good way, without us standing in poo at some point cause it's a DPS increase (while having the healing to make sure we still beat the encounter).

I'd love to see suggestions though, if people have them.

It's easier than you think.
People already figured this out.

Just make it reflect 50% or MORE from single target only. No more standing in shit. Bosses don't target players (normally. Well, the point is they shouldn't be doing that). The only thing it would create is room for those crazy Dark Apotheosis trying to tank Raid Bosses (what's impossible, btw, without 6% crit reduction and proper gear/better damage reduction).
But, as everyone should know, not every talent would be great for PVE AND PVP.

[Grievus]

Oh, no. Pardon my vagueness. It was just some pally in a 5 man. Gate of the setting sun, I believe. All the same though, taking extra damage to boost dps is kind of counter intuitive.

If it was a raid geared pal tank you shoulda went dps cuz they don't need a healer for 5mans.
If he/she wasn't then yes they're bad.

To the point. As a warlock I think we should just refuse to take a 90 talent as a community to see if someone gets the message. Doubtful, but still having a 90 warlock talent does nothing but keep your UI from saying " unspent talent points"

[Deleted]

Can you actually reflect damage onto Suen? Seeing as she is immune/dodge/parry/miss mode while she's channeling it.
I never tested it, but it would tell us if it acts as a dot or as a specific hit.

Yeah it does work. Which is kinda good.

Although I might get more DPS by actually going MF and using Immolation Aura alot more while in Metamorphosis during the entire encounter.

(Off-topic: Also, I do start channeling Drain Life just before Suen gets "immune" so that the drain itself continuing doing damage while also healing a little bit for me, and I suspect AV works in a similar manner if you activate it on Suen before she gets immune).

[Deleted]

It needs more than an overhaul. It should be trashed and replaced with something attractive. How about a Pitlord Guardian? Improved UR? Anything would be better than the waste of space we call Archimonde's Vengeance.