Advice badly needed. Our current raiding situation is ruining raiding and WoW for me.

[hatchetman240]

I think taking a break sounds like a great idea. State how you feel about things, tell them you're tired of holding the tent stakes in the hurricane. Tell them you're taking 3 weeks off and ask them to resolve that problem themselves. If they can do that and they use that time to get their stuff together then chances are you've developed some co-leads. If they fail to do that, things have fallen apart by the time 3 weeks has passed and you can apply out to new guilds.

[throwaway123423]

You're fighting the only way to make a heroic 25 person group work. That is removing all feelings of sympathy and embracing meritocracy. Unless you want to build yourself up to kicking people routinely (It will never stabilize, it's part of the deal) and constantly poaching/otherwise doing whatever you can to acquire additional players, 25 heroics are not for you. From what you're describing, your entire attitude needs to change for you to effectively run a 25 group, and that's not necessarily a good thing.

All bullshit and misplaced machismo aside (I do 199k dps, so suddenly I'm not a nerd, I'm a fucking hardcore badass... right?) in these situations you need to figure out what you're comfortable with and what your goals are. It doesn't sound like you want the hire/fire heavy job of running a 25 group capable of heroic progression, and if you don't want it, don't do it. If you want to do heroics and have a group within your guild capable, switch to 10s. If you don't care, then stop stressing and resign yourself to very limited progression with your 25. Just figure out what you want.

Unless you're on the top of your server, and your server has a strong raid community, it's pretty rough trying to maintain a heroic capable 25 group. You'll have a very, very long process of establishing yourself. You'll need to put up with a lot of people you don't like, because they happen to perform their role well. All that sort of stuff. It doesn't SOUND like you want to do that, so don't. You're just going to burn yourself out and quit if you stay on this road.

It sounds like you'd be happier with 10s. That probably means most of your core people would too, unless you're just the odd-man-out. If you are, than you can quit, knowing that the group just went somewhere you weren't having fun. A good rule for leadership is: If you feel something very strongly in the context of your group, positive or negative, other people feel it too.

Edit: I thought it was worth adding, it sounds like the power structure of your guild would need to be altered as well, which was part of why I gave a "Just Stop" response, but I felt it was worth mentioning explicitly. Everyone would need to be on board and ready to enforce a new general approach, that's not easy.

There's a a bunch of guilds ahead of us in progression on both sides. We're not bad on progression but we're not good either, and if I were an anonymous body, I'd be applying to all those places first.

I don't know that the guild would survive ditching sympathy and meritocracy. I'd like to think 25heroics are possible without all that but my gut tells me otherwise. We're all a lot of talk about what we want to do and how we want to do things but we all suck at actually executing on a lot of the hardball leadership tactics we discuss. And we're just SOL on recruiting that firing half our staff and not having bodies isn't an option that they're willing to embrace.

Wait... the 'consensus' is not to do DKP... consensus among WHO? The officers? If they're not the GM or RL, fuck that. the raiders? Hey, leading a raid isn't a democracy.

Never, ever, take on this level of work without the authority to make the decisions. If others want to make the decisions, they need to do the work. If the culture of your guild lets people not do anything but then have a say, leave. Leave now. At t he very least, stop doing the work. IF that means the raid falls flat, oh well.

PS: It really sounds like this is stressing you and putting you in a bad place. I heartily recommend stepping down or quitting when a game does that. Games should be fun and if you're not, on balance, having more positives than negatives it's a bad sign.

None of the other leadership is willing to do DKP (Some are willing to entertain the idea, no one is happy with it though)

And yes. It is stressing me, and I am in a bad place with it. I think I'm starting to formulate what I want to do which will when all else fails end with at least a break if not quitting or moving on.

[PetersenIII]

There's no I in "team", but there is one in "quit".

[Deleted]

Have you been thinking about transfering to a high pop server? As a guild I mean

[clevin]

There's a a bunch of guilds ahead of us in progression on both sides. We're not bad on progression but we're not good either, and if I were an anonymous body, I'd be applying to all those places first.

I don't know that the guild would survive ditching sympathy and meritocracy. I'd like to think 25heroics are possible without all that but my gut tells me otherwise. We're all a lot of talk about what we want to do and how we want to do things but we all suck at actually executing on a lot of the hardball leadership tactics we discuss. And we're just SOL on recruiting that firing half our staff and not having bodies isn't an option that they're willing to embrace.




None of the other leadership is willing to do DKP (Some are willing to entertain the idea, no one is happy with it though)

And yes. It is stressing me, and I am in a bad place with it. I think I'm starting to formulate what I want to do which will when all else fails end with at least a break if not quitting or moving on.

UNless 'the leadership' is actually leading the raids, again, fuck that shit. Raids need one RL. The other officers can advise, the GM can overrule, but you can't lead a raid by committee. If these people are all about saying no, tell them to fuck off. The only people who should be speaking up are the people willing to do things - lead raids, recruit, etc. Everyone else needs to either step up and contribute actual solutions or shut up.

This is really simple. Officers who aren't directly involved in raiding or recruiting get put to the side. ONe or two people need to be in charge of all raid policies and the GM gets final signoff. No one gets to say "no" without an alternate solution to the problem which means no one gets to be obstructionist.

Raid members need to put up or shutup. If they want to raid, show up early, prepared (flasks, etc) and the need to perform well in the raid. If they're asked to sit for a given fight, sit. IF they're asked to come in for some fights, be available.

Aside from quitting, your other option is to raid 25N and just farm for fun or to break into 1 or 2 10s and progress that way. But even in those cases the above applies.

[Odina]

It's simple really... peopel not putting in as much work as your say you are are also pulling the strings in your guild. You cannot have power without working for it. They can't just say "nooo ... we don't like that... sounds like work... not what were use to... find something else" and then sit on there hands while the world burns around them! If they want to keep raiding and be competitive they need to step it up and work just as hard or SHUT UP, show up and raid!

The simple solutions is often the hardest to swallow! Either suround yourslef with like minded officers pushing the same agenda or resig your position / conceed hato what you have now is ok for you!

[marklar]

Also unfortunately we don't do any point system. It's been veto'd into the ground due to effort/time consumption/complexity/perceived complexity/stigma. I'd love it, but the consensus is no.

EPGP is the most ridiculously easy system to run. once you decide on the EP numbers, literally all you have to do is start it when the raid starts, end it when the raid ends, and hit the 'decay' button once a week. add the EPGP_Lootmaster addon, and you've just made loot distribution faster and easier for your raid.

[kamuimac]

All i read in between the lines is exackly what i have seen multiple times over last few years - like many similiar guilds ur standing on the crossroad - either keep raiding 25 man and have terrible problem with rooster or switch to 10 man for progress- what u descirbing atm is tearing your raiders apart - i m reading (maybe to much ) what u written about good raiders who have in group weaker friends and have no will to raid without them - its normal but its holding you back .

And about competetiveness - this too has droped teribly in last few years - people just dont care anymore really unless they raid on really high lv -_-

About dkp systems - im not really surprised people are against it - those systems works very well in guilds that are together for long time - but of people treat this guild as lets get as much gear as we can and jump to another cause we simply dont care about what will be guidl progress in 3-4 months cause all that matters is this particular moment in time to gear up - no wonder they prefer //roll

If i were u i would start with making anonymus voting of some kind on your forums how many of your raiders are actually interested in progressing through current content HCs - only not written under their own char name only compeltly anonymus - then ull know if ur not fighting a lost cause - some people are perfeckly happy with farming normals -_-

[anaxie]

To be honest the placement you are at sounds like "dipping into heroics but not able to clear it" the downside of this that will never go away for your raid team is if you get quality players who want to clear content. You are going to be a stepping stone. They will take your gear take your time and leave. How else do new players climb up the ranks? Certainly not staying in feeder guilds.

Anyone else actively wanting to join guilds at that rank. Underperformance may be a huge issue. But this goes both ways. A poor raid lead, poor structure and environment, and unskilled peers can make players stop giving a shit and seek other places. The players who don't desire progression will stop showing up when things get difficult or just trail along pretending the hopeless situation even if they are a huge factor in it is "fun".

[Bombino]

It's just a game, think on how much stress you really want it to give yourself. If you're experiencing more than you like, then find new people to play with or quit Nothing wrong with that.

[Deleted]

To be honest, if you guild's progress isn't that great then you might just be best calling it a day and everyone go their separate ways, then you're free to join another guild that could revive your interest in the game again.

[Linkin2895]

PS: It really sounds like this is stressing you and putting you in a bad place. I heartily recommend stepping down or quitting when a game does that. Games should be fun and if you're not, on balance, having more positives than negatives it's a bad sign.

This.So much.

[Osmeric]

If you are not enjoying yourself, then stop sending Blizzard money. If you keep sending them money, you're telling them that what they're providing for you right now is adequate.

[RyanEX]

Being a GM/raidleader/co-leader isn't easy. You're REQUIRED to hurt feelings if you want to get shit together. I learned that the hard way.

I lost maybe 5 raiders (almost 1/2 my reliable raiding team) when I announced that we weren't ready for ToT and that we'd be continuously running HoT and ToES till we get a few gear ups for all those required.

I lost a group of three after I raged and swapped out a lock that couldn't understand the concept of staying away from the blue circles on Tortos.

Lost another two after I refused to let a paladin in for Ji-Kun kill after he'd done H Jin'rokh with another guild and seemed awfully desperate to get his tier piece.

Now we're 1/13 after starting more than a month late and working on H Tortos and H Ji-kun.

Point that I'm trying to get across is that if you're serious about liking where you are and don't want to quit/guild jump you have to take it upon yourself to make the change.

[Deleted]

25man guilds are a constant strugle to keep afloat. You always have to be recruiting and there are always connections within the guild that you have to take in mind. Your best players will always have the option to get into better guilds and they know it. Your worst players should be thankful they can even raid with you but they never realise that and complain when they get benched. As your guild rank improves, these problems do get less but they will still be there.

At some point last tier we were rank 5000 or so and the only way we stayed alive was because other guilds our server were dying every week and we would take in anyone that would join. Then we were in the position of actually replacing people and our progression increased drastically. As we got more progression it was easier to keep people around and easier to get new people. We're rank 800 or so now and while we actually get people from other realms approaching us, we still need to constantly approach people from other guilds on our own realm on order to keep our progression going.

The only reason we go through this trouble is because we like doing 25m. If you don't particularly care about doing 25m or 10m then don't bother with trying to (co-)lead a 25m because it is always going to be a lot of work.

[Marxman]

Always always recruit, my advice is if those people don't show replace them. 25 man raid? No problem recruit 5-9 players more there's no need to keep a roster of the exact raid 10/25. Always have more people you would be surprised! Use a point system dkp or epgp of some sort. Put your foot down and don't let those ppl take advantage

I get the feeling you've never tried hardcore raid recruitment.

9 out of 10 apps we get are denied on the spot because the player is obviously terrible. 9 out of 10 of the 10% that make it past the initial screening process are denied in their app phase due to poor performance. Another half of the 1% that actually meet expectations will leave and go elsewhere for various reasons.

It's VERY hard to even maintain a 25-man roster these days, much less a roster full of good players with competent back-up players.

[Deleted]

I was in the same situation like the OP. First I thought I will throw in all my weigth and carry more and motivate people to get better and so on. Then I realized that I shouldn't try to inject my goals into 24 other people because in the long run you will get exhausted/burnt out of frustration. You are not even the raid leader and most of the times in such a situation the raid leader is a big contributing factor to bad progression.

So the only viable choices are:

1. quit the game for some time, try out other mmos or different genres

2. find another guild; I know this is hard, but honestly ask yourself if what you feel for the players in your guild is not wrong loyality. Do you really care for them that much? Do they care for you that much?

3. Realize that with 5.4 you can go and raid /flex mode and be the raid leader yourself for some nice guys and don't have the trouble of recruiting. Also realize that with /flex it will be absolutly pointless to be in a (bad) raid that get's stuck at the first hc bosses and farms nhc for the longest time. Either commit yourself to a new raid that is motivated and capeable of clearing the hc content, or spare yourself a lot of grieve and go /flex mode. At this time nhc is completely pointless.

[fearist]

I was in a similar position, I just told the officers that I am meant for more than what this guild is offering me and left. never been happier.

[Liax]

There are other realms and guilds in this same predicament. Find these guilds, and talk to their leaders, come to a compromise and band together. You will have a large roster at first, but just start weeding out the bads and still recruit.

Or since you said that your realm isn't that great (many are unpopulated these days), talk about a possible guild transfer to a higher pipeline realm for a bigger recruiting pool.

Just suggestions that haven't really been mentioned. Good luck either way.

[Nairobi]

Been said a lot already, but I'll say it again.

Find a group of like-minded players to play the game with. Else, you'll always be trying to ice skate uphill.

You can't improve players that don't care to improve. You're stuck on a treadmill of mediocrity with this guild, and all you're doing is tryin to run faster as if it will get you somewhere. The quality recruits that you DO get will likely see this too, and use you as a tool to get to their end goal.

Why should you be different? You paid your dues and then some. Go have fun with whatever your goal is. Sounds like you have options on the server you're on, and aren't a baddie, so why NOT try a different home before flat out quitting?

The logistical work in 25m is HUGE, and it sounds like you're shouldering a lot of it, unsuccessfully, due to lack of support. It's not healthy. If you care about the people in your current home, just TALK to them (instead of the internet) and say "hey, look. I want X, which is not what you all want. It's not fair to me to drive myself insane, and its not fair to you for me to try and shove X down your throats. I'm going to look for a place where I can do X, and will give you guys time to replace me here."

If they hate you, then that sucks, but I bet most of them will say "Man, we'll miss you. Good luck!" because it's just a game. A few weeks/month after you leave, I doubt people will have any feelings at all about you; not trying to be rude, just saying that you're not the center of 24 other people's thoughts.

Anyway, it sounds like you want to make it work, and that's noble, but just remember what your time is worth, and that it's ok (and good sometimes) to be selfish, if you're currently miserable. Do what's right for you.