Optimising Renataki's Soul Charm as BM

[Megazorrd]

Mega, stop getting Renataki procs in Jin'rokh pools. Fuck.

-Sincerely, Sre

haha dude I haven't had a competent jin'rohk parse since 'Nam. Thanks to mages blowing up the raid this entire tier

[Sre]

haha dude I haven't had a competent jin'rohk parse since 'Nam. Thanks to mages blowing up the raid this entire tier

Mages and Locks this tier, really rustling my jimmies.

[Saoron]

@Beace and spiral..

Every top hunter IS doing it.. A few of them just posted on this thread while speaking against your ideology.. To put it to a test, just try and apply to a top guild and link them your UI and say you don't use an addon to track your procs cuz they're all random and it's a loss in dps to try and line up cd's with them.. And see how many people laugh at you and decline you the next second.. Honestly try it..
As far as my logs are concerned, I raid with an avg latency of 380ms (Don't live in north america anymore) Along with that handicap, if I were to start taking your advice and not min/max, i'd never even see a green rank.. let alone the few that I get here and there.. And I never said i'm the highest ranked hunter in the world.. I just like to take advantage of anything I can to get me close to it while raiding with my latency.. You're the one who came in with his 100+ ranks feeling accomplished..

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oh and sup sre.. having fun in a 25m ?
PS: Obe said he's gonna re-roll hunter and show you how to play

[Beace]

@Beace and spiral..

Every top hunter IS doing it.. A few of them just posted on this thread while speaking against your ideology.. To put it to a test, just try and apply to a top guild and link them your UI and say you don't use an addon to track your procs cuz they're all random and it's a loss in dps to try and line up cd's with them.. And see how many people laugh at you and decline you the next second.. Honestly try it..

Don't need to, I've already raided at pretty much the highest level (not competing for world firsts, but the step below). I didn't have any problems staying in the upper quadrant when it came to dps, and I never tracked trinkets. All top hunters are not doing it, though I'm sure many of them are because they think it has a bigger effect than it does, because they enjoy it, or because they're used doing it from playing other classes (some of who benefit greatly from it, due to their class mechanics)

You're the one who came in with his 100+ ranks feeling accomplished..

I linked my logs because another player asked for it, and because they prove you don't need to micromanage trinkets to get top results.

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you. You're one of those persons that can't have a discussion without being rude or constantly trying to bring the other person down. Just for the hell of it though, to throw some of that rudeness back, what do you think those ".." you use to end every sentence or half-sentence mean? Just makes your posts hard to read.

[Rabak]

Guys lets keep things nice and civil; do not stray away from the topic I put up. What would be ideal would be discussing and sharing things we do to improve dps, in this case, during Renataki's proc.

I'm really not interested in show-boating, credential-sharing (oh I'm constantly top 100 parses on wol bla bla bla) as these things don't contribute to the discussion at all. Likewise, if you DON'T do anything special during trinket procs, then I'm guessing you probably won't be able to share much here anyways. There's no need to impose your play style to everyone else.. Likewise, if you strongly believe that delaying some shots to line up with procs is the way to go, then there's also no need to bash people who don't believe so. They are entitled to their own beliefs and the hope is that we could all share math (which some people have done) to see on paper, what does more dmg.

The fact is, its simple (perhaps not easy, as you prob need permission from your raid/ raid lead) to "cheese" your way into the logs by padding or not doing mechanics or do proper target switching in fights. Example, HC Durumu, some people get high parses cuz they do heavy aoe on walls, or have healers dispel players early and have a shit ton of adds to aoe down, or some just turret durumu. Another example would be HC Twin Consorts. Player A could have done 20k dps more than Player B. However, Player B did 10mill damage more than Player A on Suen, which is the key to clearing the encounter successfully. Upon inspection, Player A churned out a higher parse because he did more aoe on adds. So who's the better player? Truth is, parses have to be analysed per encounter and also on what the player is dpsing throughout the fight. Looking at the meters up front like that is pointless and uninformative.

So yea, less bashing, less bragging, more tips, tricks, discussion, math and INFO!

[Conando]

The problem I have with timing SS at the end of a proc is that you have to Cobra before you get enough buffed ticks in. Only with Fervor can you really extend the duration to get a lot of buffed ticks in.

Otherwise, theorycrafting has always shown that more ability usages > buffed ability uses. There just aren't many things to optimize, to be honest. And I track trinkets, so I'm not just saying that to be lazy. There are always small things along the way (for example, dumping focus at the end of a trinket proc instead of using CSs), but they're all minor things that in all likelyhood have nothing to do with where you rank.

I'd say that the Readiness/Stampede burn is a nice place to min/max with trinket procs, but they're pretty much removing that and BM was already handcuffed anyway because of BW timing. Hunters just really aren't a very reactive class at the moment.

[Saoron]

All top hunters are not doing it, though I'm sure many of them are because they think it has a bigger effect than it does, because they enjoy it, or because they're used doing it from playing other classes (some of who benefit greatly from it, due to their class mechanics)

I never nitpicked or resorted to commenting on semantics.. You know why I came off as a bit rude ? It's because statements like the above ^..
You think you know better than the top hunters.. Saying 'i'm sure this is what top hunters think' and that guys like fatal, mega, sre (all three have posted here saying they do track procs), muulu, donkeywing, sanqui, kennyloggins+dyv (blood legion), rogerbrown+pottm (method), devai (paragon) are all idiots who simply track procs cuz they switched to hunter from playing a caster or that they only do it cuz it's 'fun'.. It's that arrogance that made me rude.. And then you say blatantly ignorant things like 'all top hunters don't' in the face of pure statistical evidence.. You keep insisting not all top hunters track procs based on what ? Just baseless assumptions to support your claim ? A few top hunters come in and post on this very thread saying otherwise and you continue to deny it. How are you speaking for them is what I wanna know.

Let me put it to you this way.. if you don't track procs, and simply follow your rotation.. due to the nature of rng, once in a blue moon your abilities will automatically line up with those procs (without you having to track them) just out of pure luck.. and you will do good dps.. But other times, it will drop.. That inconsistency isn't acceptable in progression raiding.. And we track procs to keep it as consistent as we can, while working under rng. I just gave mathematical evidence of SrS snapshotting being worth it if you can get it to tick 3 times and spiral still refuses to believe it, out of stubbornness or pride or I dunnu. I don't know what language you guys understand.

I linked my logs because another player asked for it, and because they prove you don't need to micromanage trinkets to get mediocre results.

fix'd

Anyway, I'm done arguing with you.

Thank you. Since my '..' confuse you and perhaps that's why you didn't understand my point the first three times. But as I said before and as jand (the op) just mentioned above me, I don't even know why you posted on this thread in the first place.
It's the ideology that goes against common sense that needs to bring proofs to the table. It is common practice to track your procs. Now if you think not tracking them is BETTER than that, then you damn well bring a mountain of evidence and math supporting your claim. If you can't, then don't say anything.

If you don't track procs, gg. Good for you. Keep on rockin. All top hunters and math disagree with you.

[Feanoro]

I never nitpicked or resorted to commenting on semantics.. You know why I came off as a bit rude ? It's because statements like the above ^..
You think you know better than the top hunters.. Saying 'i'm sure this is what top hunters think' and that guys like fatal, mega, sre (all three have posted here saying they do track procs), muulu, donkeywing, sanqui, kennyloggins+dyv (blood legion), rogerbrown+pottm (method), devai (paragon) are all idiots who simply track procs cuz they switched to hunter from playing a caster or that they only do it cuz it's 'fun'..

Oddly enough, I don't see most of those names commenting here. Awfully nice of you to speak for them. Also, this chest beating about top hunters is hilarious considering you're 11/13 as of three weeks ago and 11th guild on Mal'Ganis. The only one slinging insults like "idiot" here is you.

It's that arrogance that made me rude.. And then you say blatantly ignorant things like 'all top hunters don't' in the face of pure statistical evidence.. You keep insisting not all top hunters track procs based on what ? Just baseless assumptions to support your claim ? A few top hunters come in and post on this very thread saying otherwise and you continue to deny it. How are you speaking for them is what I wanna know.

What statistical evidence? You have yourself and 3 other guys saying this. That's not statistically significant.

You haven't put up any links or proof of your claims either. All you're doing is making claims about what the other side of the discussion said. Now, I'm sure real toppers do game procs, but there's no call to openly attack someone saying "I don't agree that it guarantees huge results, as there is also a high chance of failure." No one said anything close to "Top hunters do not track procs".

I just gave mathematical evidence of SrS snapshotting being worth it if you can get it to tick 3 times and spiral still refuses to believe it, out of stubbornness or pride or I dunnu.

Except that's not at all what he said. He's simply pointing out that if you delay enough, you will fire fewer KCs over the fight length due to cooldown. The lost KCs are not insignificant. That hardly fits your raging about him.

Since my '..' confuse you and perhaps that's why you didn't understand my point the first three times.

Your .. is writing about as poorly as your reading comprehension. You're the one who doesn't understand what the other guy is saying, and then proceeds to "RAGE YOU NOT AGREE?! ME TOP HUNTER! YOU BAD!" If you need an example of how to make your argument in a way that anyone over 12 will take seriously, please take a look at Ijanaak's posts. Insults and mischaracterizing people don't help you at all.

It is common practice to track your procs. Now if you think not tracking them is BETTER than that

No one said that.

[Spiralphoenix]

@Beace and spiral..

Every top hunter IS doing it.. A few of them just posted on this thread while speaking against your ideology.. To put it to a test, just try and apply to a top guild and link them your UI and say you don't use an addon to track your procs cuz they're all random and it's a loss in dps to try and line up cd's with them.. And see how many people laugh at you and decline you the next second.. Honestly try it..
As far as my logs are concerned, I raid with an avg latency of 380ms (Don't live in north america anymore) Along with that handicap, if I were to start taking your advice and not min/max, i'd never even see a green rank.. let alone the few that I get here and there.. And I never said i'm the highest ranked hunter in the world.. I just like to take advantage of anything I can to get me close to it while raiding with my latency.. You're the one who came in with his 100+ ranks feeling accomplished..

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oh and sup sre.. having fun in a 25m ?
PS: Obe said he's gonna re-roll hunter and show you how to play

And there you go speaking for a group of people again, and discounting other great hunters with a competing opinion that are actually backing it up.

You keep saying you wouldn't be min maxing and you continue to not actually show proof that it is an increase. Saying "JUST LOOK AT HOW MUCH MORE DAMAGE IT IS WHILE THE PROC IS UP!!1!!1!" and "I GET TOP RANKS!" doesn't work. Linking it to ranks is completely ridiculous - getting a rank is based on so many other factors and I can promise you that this is very minor in the scheme of things, if it is contributing at all. Something like losing a # of kill commands over the course of a fight is not something that is immediately obvious. Yes your abilities used during high stack renataki are doing more damage, but you're not taking into account anything else, or saying that these things aren't relevant when they very clearly are. Or you're blinding following these "top hunters" which you apparently know all of the opinions of. As with what Blizzard deals with almost every day on their own forums, you don't speak for groups of people or truly know what all of them actually do.

I would go through more numbers, but I don't know the true formulas behind abilities - the ones listed on wowhead within tooltips for example are not correct. Serpent sting is easy since it's damage is not variable between casts when stats don't change.

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I just gave mathematical evidence of SrS snapshotting being worth it if you can get it to tick 3 times and spiral still refuses to believe it, out of stubbornness or pride or I dunnu. I don't know what language you guys understand.

And... this is the mathematical evidence?

It is worth it.. The ap boost is the same for both shots, you just have to compare the damage of a single arcane shot vs srs.. and go by how many ticks of srs would it take to out damage a single arcane shot. I can't log in right now to give you exact numbers but just browsing through a log, avg AS crit was 118k.. and an avg srs tick crit was 42.7k.. So if you are able to pool enough focus to let that srs snapshot tick 3 times, it's worth it.. If it won't tick for atleast 3 times then you might as well AS or ideally KC if it's available..

And this trade is made when you compare AS with manually applying SrS.. But if you time a CS to refresh it (to atleast a 3 tick duration) the benefit gets higher in favor of SrS.. Cuz CS is part of your regular rotation anyways.. You're just shifting the shots and cobra'ing earlier and moving the instants to after the snapshot.. instead of the other way around..

Except.. that's wrong, because you already have an unbuffed SrS on the target ticking that you are overwriting, so you need to compare the damage increase of the unbuffed SrS to the buffed one to get the actual increase of damage you are getting. Which I already did... and it's not even worth it if you get all 5 buffed ticks of SS over an arcane - which, you never will.

[Sre]

oh and sup sre.. having fun in a 25m ?
PS: Obe said he's gonna re-roll hunter and show you how to play

Have to admit 25's are nice, fun to actually see loot drop.
Had to take a few minutes to recover from Obe's joke, tell him to stick to something he knows, shaman/mage. =P

[Saoron]

...

Huh ?

Oddly enough, I don't see most of those names commenting here.

Um, the three names that I mentioned before the parantheses, did comment here.. I didn't say anything about others commenting on this thread.. But every single one of those names tracks procs.. So I don't know what you're talking about.. And you don't even know what the argument is about, and just came in like rambo with a defender of the oppressed mindset without reading through the points being made on the thread..

No one said anything close to "Top hunters do not track procs".

lol you didn’t even read the very same post you quoted me from.. That is exactly what was said.

All top hunters are not doing it, though I'm sure many of them are because they think it has a bigger effect than it does, because they enjoy it, or because they're used doing it from playing other classes (some of who benefit greatly from it, due to their class mechanics)

So basically your entire rant is invalid.


Anyways, I’m fine with open theorycrafting.. But the discussion shifted from ‘how to optimize renataki’ to ‘tracking procs vs not tracking procs’.. And not tracking procs is just not optimizing your dps, pure and simple. It’s worth a lot of dps if you do it properly. And not a whole lot if you don’t. Could even be a loss for some if they pay too much attention to the addons and then miss an ability or two. Just like engineering. It is great for BM since it lines up with BW every time and has the same duration. But if a person goes engi and forgets to use his synapse springs on cd or just not with BW, then he’ll see a dps loss compared to a regular profession. That doesn’t make engi bad or not worth it.

Snip

Before I go on, i apologize for the previous cantankerous responses. You just unfairly got caught in the crossfire. But anyways, you keep saying that I am not accounting for anything else. But I am. I have already said that I do account for total abilities lost during an encounter. All that min/maxing is done on a situation by situation basis.. Every situation is different and you need to make an on the spot decision. I never said always delay KC. Why would you assume you’d have to delay KC by a few seconds on every single renataki proc if they're random ? There are cases where it lines up so your third KC will hit right at the 3 second mark. That is when you delay it by a second. There are cases where the proc doesn’t line up with anything whatsoever. And lining up KC would mean delaying it by 3 or more seconds.. In that case you don’t delay and continue as normal. Just burn arcane shots near the end. And/or an srs snapshot if it is possible.

Now as far as srs snapshotting goes, that I can work with. I’m curious about the exact numbers behind it as well so if you want to discuss that, then feel free. I will be able to log in tomorrow and I’ll run some more tests and then post the results. But again though, it’s not black and white.. You don’t either always snapshot.. or never snapshot. It varies. And yes you are right. The comparison would have to be between an unbuffed srs and a buffed srs. And I posted those numbers already. (Keep in mind they will be different since your gear is different than mine.. ~17.1k agi won’t give you the same exact benefit as it would for me PLUS I am testing with a HTF Renataki.. Don’t know what you have)

[bewsh]

What the hell are you people even arguing about now?

There is no question that a buffed renataki sting does significantly more damage than a non-buffed one from the renatiki stacks alone before you even consider that you have a good chance to have up to like 3 other agility procs up at the same time.

If you have fervor off CD or almost off CD and can refresh a SS with 3ish seconds left on 9-10 stacks and let it bleed off using fervor and only reapply it at the last possible moment without delaying KC or altering your standard priority, I'd say the chance is good you're going to see a gain.

Things like distance to target, travel time, etc still need to be accounted for as well. There are plenty of times I've tried to cobra @ 3s and the shot reaches the target milliseconds after the buff expires and sting gets snapshotted without it and the result almost certainly a dps loss.

I feel like gaming the proc is much more beneficial to SV compared to BM and half the time you'll just screw yourself prioritizing gaming the proc over playing well and capitalizing on the procs when optimal and when you have enough focus/time to maybe sting another target or two instead of arcane spam when you have 7+ stacks right before you burst AoE. It's all about being an opportunist.

Capitalizing on the proc only requires you to do something like create a need to know bar for the buff and set it to display the stacks -- move that shit into easy view.

[Feanoro]

Um, the three names that I mentioned before the parantheses, did comment here.. I didn't say anything about others commenting on this thread.. But every single one of those names tracks procs..

Unless you have proof (i.e. can show a conversation with them or their posts), then don't use their names to back your argument. Just to avoid confusion, I mean your list: "muulu, donkeywing, sanqui, kennyloggins+dyv (blood legion), rogerbrown+pottm (method), devai (paragon)". Without their input, you cannot prove their behavior.

There's a large difference between "Top hunters do not track procs" (what you CLAIM was said) and "Top hunters track procs, but not all of them." (what was actually said) If you need help understanding the difference, let's restate it with numbers.

"0% of top hunters track procs." versus "The amount of top hunters who track procs is less than 100% but more than 0%".

If you still don't see the difference, I can't help you further. My only point was, you don't have to be a raging jerk to someone because you disagree.

Could even be a loss for some if they pay too much attention to the addons and then miss an ability or two.

This is basically all the other side is saying. For some, the disadvantages aren't worth it. That doesn't mean "you should never track procs". Less rage, more reading.

[xavierjn]

I know what I am about to say is a little off topic, but I have to say it.
I have been an avid Hunter since my Guild finally allowed me to switch it as my Main back in Naxx during Wrath. I remember the several months of begging until they finally let me try it. I pulled over 5k DPS on Patch back when that was a good number. They were shocked, since our current better geared Hunter didn't come close. I was so proud to show them what a Hunter could really do. I spent hours trying to help that other Hunter on the test dummies every week. I want to see ALL Hunters excel, because I love our class and want us to do well.

On that note, I am always visiting the forums and talking with fellow Hunters, always seeking my own improvement or assisting them with theirs. I am currently a non-raider due to military issues, so I am stuck with LFR. I still take my Hunter as serious as I did when I was the class leader in my old guild that was hardcore enough to be the 3rd to kill Yogg. I look at every tip and strategy noted on here, but it breaks my heart to see fellow Hunters arguing over something this simple. The 2 main ideas were offered, and I think both were viable based on the skill of the Hunter who read them. Why not let it end there and simply note that we should try both and do what suits us best?

At this time in the Hunter evolution, we need to really strive to get along and stand together. We don't need to argue and bicker at each other. I am happy for anyone who keeps playing this wonderful, yet ever-changing class. I also appreciate any and all Hunters who post on these forums to help us all out.

Thank you and keep the tips and ideas flowing!!!

[Feanoro]

Thanks, xavierjn, that's exactly what I mean. We should be sharing ideas and keeping criticism constructive.

[Tehstool]

Can we keep it civil please?

There is no way that casting SrS over AS during renataki's is better. Sure it does slightly more damage if you allow it to tick for all 15 seconds, but do you really have enough focus not to cast CS for 15 seconds straight?

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Except.. that's wrong, because you already have an unbuffed SrS on the target ticking that you are overwriting, so you need to compare the damage increase of the unbuffed SrS to the buffed one to get the actual increase of damage you are getting. Which I already did... and it's not even worth it if you get all 5 buffed ticks of SS over an arcane - which, you never will.

This is a nice point. Yeah, it's even less worth it than I had thought.

[Rabak]

Can we keep it civil please?

There is no way that casting SrS over AS during renataki's is better. Sure it does slightly more damage if you allow it to tick for all 15 seconds, but do you really have enough focus not to cast CS for 15 seconds straight?

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This is a nice point. Yeah, it's even less worth it than I had thought.

hmm double food for thought.. interesting points. looks like it may not be worth the trouble to refresh SS manually with buffs up unless multi dotting

[Sre]

hmm double food for thought.. interesting points. looks like it may not be worth the trouble to refresh SS manually with buffs up unless multi dotting

At most I've personally been delaying BW's if the last 7-8 seconds of Renataki can line up with a BW (This will let me get both KC's into the proc, those 10 stack KCs are juicy.) and if there's some multi target at the time, I'll apply a SrS on the alternate target. I've always run into problems with letting an empowered SrS tick down, even with Fervor. Either way people need to mellow out in this thread, deep breath and just talk. Sheesh.

[Rabak]

At most I've personally been delaying BW's if the last 7-8 seconds of Renataki can line up with a BW (This will let me get both KC's into the proc, those 10 stack KCs are juicy.) and if there's some multi target at the time, I'll apply a SrS on the alternate target. I've always run into problems with letting an empowered SrS tick down, even with Fervor. Either way people need to mellow out in this thread, deep breath and just talk. Sheesh.

What's the maximum BW delay you would allow yourself?

And when you do delay it, you start your BW at 7-8 stacks (~14s in) ?

wrt to the hatin'....haha I know right... people need to CTFO

[Tehstool]

What's the maximum BW delay you would allow yourself?

And when you do delay it, you start your BW at 7-8 stacks (~14s in) ?

wrt to the hatin'....haha I know right... people need to CTFO

You don't delay it... You just use your first bestial wrath at the start then the second BW a few seconds after your first bestial ends. That way you kill command at the end of renataki's and still have bestial wrath up.