Why do lesser skilled players feel entitled to see content?

[Otimus]

As much as I hate saying it, I was a pretty casual raider (mostly full normal clears/1 or 2 heroics) during t11/13 (no firelands).

I can say this for pretty much everyone in my guild and my friends list, nobody wanted the same equips as all the hardcore raiders. Sure they would've liked to have it, but they would rather raid and progress for their epics, not just get it for barley trying. We all knew if we didn't down the bosses, we didn't deserve the gear and that was okay with us, the feeling of something being "out of reach" from us was the reason we played the game.

Sure we missed out on pretty much all heroic bosses, and it was fine, we didn't want to see the content, it just added to it being out of reach, giving us something to play for, even if we didn't ever get there. But when blizzard decided it was a good idea to start nerfing DS, that's when I just stopped playing. The mentality of "everyone should see the content, it's not fair!" is, in my opinion, wrong. Sure you're paying the same price on the game as me, that doesn't entitle you to anything. We pay the same amount for any video game on the market and we both have to actually play it to beat it and see all the content, but as soon as it comes down to WoW, it just turns into entitlement.

As an extremely casual player, all I really want is things to do, an easy way to get into doing them, and meaningful progression of my character(s). Without that, I'd just do the part of a patch's content I can do, and then unsubscribe until another patch. (Which is what I pretty much did do from when I started in BC, until LFR was put in the game.)

[endersblade]

...How in the world did this get to almost 100 pages without getting closed? Good lord.

The question is, why do YOU feel entitled to be a special snowflake (that would be 'you' in the general sense, not pointing fingers here) and get content for a game that everyone pays the same money for, just because you're better are pressing buttons in a goddamn VIDEO GAME? Leetists have had their time in the limelight, and nobody likes them for it. Blizzard is doing what they SHOULD do - opening the game so that everybody can see the stuff they spend so much time making. Don't like LFR? Don't fucking do it. Stick to your hard modes, earn your leet-tagged gear, and feel superior to the rest of us who don't have the time to do it, don't have the motivation to get that good, or frankly don't give a crap to be like you.

The problem is, the lines between casual, hardcore, and just plain bad have been smeared so terribly that nobody even remembers what they used to mean. So naturally, one group hates the other, but for all the wrong reasons. Never mind the fact that for some reason, in a game of MILLIONS OF PLAYERS, some people feel the need to feel 'better' than others. Go do that shit in real life. Leave your ego outside of the game, and stop complaining that people who don't spend time theorycrafting, hours on videos and forums learning a raid boss fight, and worrying about how to properly gem their gear want to actually enjoy the entirety of the game.

[Normie]

Sorry this is not what casual means. Casual does not mean bad and unwilling. Bad literally means bad. Lazy means lazy.

You didn't even read what I wrote, or if you did, you decided to respond to someone else's comment below where you quoted mine. Would you like to try again?

[Jalen]

This is such a pointless thread. It's a circlejerk at this point.

[Dormie]

The thing you're not understanding is that your telling me why other people do it or don't do it. You can't speak for other people, and you can't assume their reasoning. You can only listen to the few people you know and who tell you why they like/dislike it.

For me, yes I do LFR. Why? Because I just don't have the time anymore. I want to see the content and I enjoy to raid. And yes, I do think LFR is fun. So that there just proves you wrong when you say people can't think it's fun (you're assuming). Am I a bad player? No.

I'm just sick of hearing people say that they know why people do LFR. You don't. You don't know everyone's thoughts on why they queue for it, and if they think its fun or not.

What if they made LFR like 5 man heroics, but 25 man? This way you wouldn't have to sacrifice end game content just to let people raid. And if you did want to see that content you could PuG (they would need to make Normal mode puggable by a competent group in high end LFR gear) the raid or find a guild.

You say you want to see the content. How many times? If a player doesn't have the time for the game, wouldn't just seeing it once or twice be enough? Because I'm sure you can get into almost any raid at least once as long as you aren't seriously under geared. That's the thing, peopel say they 'see' the content like they go in and see how the story plays out. Yea, you do that the first time, but why do you keep going back after you know that content pretty well?

[Allawi]

...How in the world did this get to almost 100 pages without getting closed? Good lord.

The question is, why do YOU feel entitled to be a special snowflake (that would be 'you' in the general sense, not pointing fingers here) and get content for a game that everyone pays the same money for, just because you're better are pressing buttons in a goddamn VIDEO GAME? Leetists have had their time in the limelight, and nobody likes them for it. Blizzard is doing what they SHOULD do - opening the game so that everybody can see the stuff they spend so much time making. Don't like LFR? Don't fucking do it. Stick to your hard modes, earn your leet-tagged gear, and feel superior to the rest of us who don't have the time to do it, don't have the motivation to get that good, or frankly don't give a crap to be like you.

The problem is, the lines between casual, hardcore, and just plain bad have been smeared so terribly that nobody even remembers what they used to mean. So naturally, one group hates the other, but for all the wrong reasons. Never mind the fact that for some reason, in a game of MILLIONS OF PLAYERS, some people feel the need to feel 'better' than others. Go do that shit in real life. Leave your ego outside of the game, and stop complaining that people who don't spend time theorycrafting, hours on videos and forums learning a raid boss fight, and worrying about how to properly gem their gear want to actually enjoy the entirety of the game.

Just because you pay the same amount of money as all the "special snowflakes" doesn't mean you deserve to see the content, you're paying for access to a server in which you want to play a game that used to require dedication.

You can make this point about any game on the market; why should you die on the same boss over and over again in Dark Souls and pay just as much as me, someone who's beat it 10+ times. Why isn't there an option for you to get the best weapons, get a minimap and go through the game like it's nothing just because you pay the same $40 as me.

Why should I be entitled to play in higher skill group in Counter-Strike (which would be more fun than lower skill groups) while you're barley keeping up in lower brackets, even though we pay the same $15?

Why can we both spend the same amount of money on a game on steam, have one person beat it while the other doesn't, and not scream "SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE"?

The answer to all the questions is I actually put more effort into playing the video games I buy.
Video games are a hobby, just like any other hobby, if you want to find joy in it, you're going to have to put time into it. If thats not you're thing, find something else to do.

The argument of "it's my $15 too" is a flawed argument that shouldn't be used.

[jbombard]

What if they made LFR like 5 man heroics, but 25 man? This way you wouldn't have to sacrifice end game content just to let people raid. And if you did want to see that content you could PuG (they would need to make Normal mode puggable by a competent group in high end LFR gear) the raid or find a guild.

You say you want to see the content. How many times? If a player doesn't have the time for the game, wouldn't just seeing it once or twice be enough? Because I'm sure you can get into almost any raid at least once as long as you aren't seriously under geared. That's the thing, peopel say they 'see' the content like they go in and see how the story plays out. Yea, you do that the first time, but why do you keep going back after you know that content pretty well?

The only reason they go back is for the gear treadmill. They know it Blizzard knows it. It is why LFR exists. To keep people busy and subscribed. It has nothing to do with skill, blizzard doesn't care if you are super skilled or drooling on your keyboard, they want your money and they know they won't get it if they don't give people something to do with a reasonable amount of rewards.

[anaxie]

Frankly, I don't think trying to kill a boss, and being murdered by it over and over is "epic". That's ...gamey. Personally epic from a personal triumph, absolutely, but from a lore standpoint, it's disjointed and stupid. "Dedication" and "Effort" would be setting up a war, and battling, and winning. Not going to fight the great villain, dying, and magically coming back to life, and going to his room where he stands still waiting, and dying again :x While other instances of other people also do the same :x That's not epic. That's the consequence of game design.

Personal triumph being epic is one thing, and quite valid. Visual, and general presentation of epicness is another!

Oh but it is epic. When you watch ragnaros face melt before your eyes and turn to ash instead of simply going boof it is an epic experience. To overcome a challenge and beable to enjoy that assholes death and then followup with 4hour full farm content clears where you can view it as "true lore mode" where the villans are suitably challenging and dangerous and fall before the team of heroes standing against him.

/Nerdgasim

[anaxie]

I don't think you have a realistic view of what constitutes a good effort from a typical LFR player. I don't think you understand or perhaps choose not to accept the various things, none of them unreasonable, that make someone produce 40k instead of 70k while still trying.

People doing LESS dps then a LEVEL 85 character is not a gear issue. It's a bad issue. The game should teach them to play better.

[alturic]

The thing you're not understanding is that your telling me why other people do it or don't do it. You can't speak for other people, and you can't assume their reasoning. You can only listen to the few people you know and who tell you why they like/dislike it.

For me, yes I do LFR. Why? Because I just don't have the time anymore. I want to see the content and I enjoy to raid. And yes, I do think LFR is fun. So that there just proves you wrong when you say people can't think it's fun (you're assuming). Am I a bad player? No.

I'm just sick of hearing people say that they know why people do LFR. You don't. You don't know everyone's thoughts on why they queue for it, and if they think its fun or not.

Oh, I definitely know why people do it. They are either bad, or they don't have time to devote to a schedule. =D

[Dormie]

Lore isn't restricted to just the story. By lore I include many things such as the consistency of the world and the fact it makes sense.
Let's take ToT and the Isle of Thunder. You have a whole zone dedicated to a war on the Zandalari. The NPCs keep telling you that Lei Shen is a badass and dangerous, and you can see the indirect effects of his powers on his minions. One could assume that Lei Shen is actually going to hand you over a new one when you get to him.
But he doesn't. You go in there with people you have never met (and probably spend more time calling each other n00bl0rds in raid chat than anything else), have a.... questionable.. way of playing their classes, semi-afk through most bosses and ultimately this big baddass that was built up as a major tyrant bends over and takes it, screams all kind of weird stuff about "blabla I will murder you" when casting abilities that tickle you and would be more suited for a level 85 boss than a 90 one, then dies.
Why exactly did the Isle of Thunder exist? Why were all the NPCs afraid of him? Why was he such a big deal?

It just doesn't build up. You can't hype something up and then have it be a pushover. And this is the real design problem. It doesn't compel you to play the game again, because you've beaten it, and all that remains is just collecting gear or mounts or achievements, or personal challenges (heroic raiding is about that). The game? No, game is over. You're just restarting a newgame+ by the point you do normal/heroic, but that also doesn't work in a MMO system where the world is supposed to be consistent.

Thank you! This.

[Normie]

The only reason they go back is for the gear treadmill. They know it Blizzard knows it. It is why LFR exists. To keep people busy and subscribed. It has nothing to do with skill, blizzard doesn't care if you are super skilled or drooling on your keyboard, they want your money and they know they won't get it if they don't give people something to do with a reasonable amount of rewards.

Yes, but for many people, the LFR gear treadmill is enjoyable and just fine. You ever play a game on a difficulty lower than normal because you just enjoy winning? It's insipid, I know, but also it's fun. To some people.

I don't really want Blizzard to care whether I'm skilled or brain-damaged. That's not really anything for Blizzard to be concerned about.

[Dreknar20]

where the villans are suitably challenging and dangerous and fall before the team of heroes standing against him.

Something cant be a success/achievement if there is no possibility of failure

[iamthedevil]

Why do they?

If you are a terrible player who has no chance to ever get into a raiding guild or pug normal modes, why do you expect to see raid content? Thats the reason LFR was implemented but WHY do terribads demand content just for them? LFR was made to see content, but why did Blizzard do so?

I just don't understand how hard can it be to read up on your class for 1 hour, ask a better player for tips and then improve yourself to get into raiding...


I think WoW is going down the toilet if something isn't done soon to stop catering to the majority. Dont get me wrong, im fine with catering to casuals, but not like this. Not this way with giving welfare "special" content just for them rather than incentive to improve your gaming skills.

I've been there, clueless. I learned, asked better players. I've been high rated in PvP and raided top PvE content but we ALL started on the bottom some time. Why cant those who run LFR do the same?

Everyone pays the same sub fee. It's an MMO. If you want special content go get a 1 player game.

[Dormie]

I go back beause like most players, I want to get better gear. That's one of the the major points in playing this game. I said I wanted to see the content, I do. But I also want to advance in the game. And when I say I don't have the time, it means I don't the the time for Normal/Heroics. We all know those take MUCH more time than LFR, and I just don't have the time anymore like I used too. I don't want to get into a Normal/Heroic raid, and tell the RL "hey, I only have maybe an hour to clear this". That's not fair to the raid.

I started playing WoW when my daughter was a baby. Because of that, I've started to play WoW less and less. Since then, I've had another daughter and I play even less. I like to play the game, but I really only get nights, when the girls are in bed to play. I know my classes, and if I HAD the time then I would raid in Normal/Heroics with no problem with being too DUMB because I do LFR.

People need to stop belittling people who do LFR. It's not your busy or concern on why they do it. How is it hurting you?

Each person has a different reason for why they do LFR. This is mine.

Look at the quote above your post to answer the 'how is it hurting you'. I progress for content, not gear and titles.

[anaxie]

...How in the world did this get to almost 100 pages without getting closed? Good lord.

Because it's fairly civil and a great thread. Problem?

[Allawi]

People doing LESS dps then a LEVEL 85 character is not a gear issue. It's a bad issue. The game should teach them to play better.

Gear is not as important as actual competence, no one can blame gear on doing sub-par dps, you will always have good enough gear to pull your weight in content if you're using gear either from the previous tier or the one before.

As much as I agree with the first part of the statement, i'm not sure about the second part. The people who cant do average dps are the same people who will not learn no matter what everyone and the game will tell them to learn.

[Stormcall]

You can make this point about any game on the market; why should you die on the same boss over and over again in Dark Souls and pay just as much as me, someone who's beat it 10+ times. Why isn't there an option for you to get the best weapons, get a minimap and go through the game like it's nothing just because you pay the same $40 as me.

Why should I be entitled to play in higher skill group in Counter-Strike (which would be more fun than lower skill groups) while you're barley keeping up in lower brackets, even though we pay the same $15?

LOL. You criticize someone for giving flawed arguments, then give...2 flawed comparisons? Awesome.

Example 1 is flawed-you don't get the best weapons in WoW, either. LFR is not as good as Heroic Raid gear. So yeah, WoW doesn't have an option to get the "best" gear without effort either(unless a high end guild decides to carry you for some reason and is good enough to do so).

Example 2 is also flawed-Higher skill groups is like Heroic raiding. If you aren't good enough to be in the higher skill group, it likely WOULDN'T be more fun, as you'd be killed over and over...same as wiping repeatedly on a normal or heroic raid boss.

[Normie]

People doing LESS dps then a LEVEL 85 character is not a gear issue. It's a bad issue. The game should teach them to play better.

Thanks to the goofy rating scaling and gearing and whatnot, blue-geared level 90 characters doing less DPS than raid-geared level 85 characters is perfectly normal. There's nothing you can do to avoid that. That's the way the game was designed. You should know that.

[Allawi]

Everyone pays the same sub fee. It's an MMO. If you want special content go get a 1 player game.

Why should everyone be equally entitled to see content JUST because it's an MMO? What makes it any different from any other game on the market?