"you don't have any kills, sorry"... always hiding behind that same lame excuse

[DrSteveBrule]

Are we still blaming the few players who take the fucking initiative to form their own raid groups?

If they make too many exceptions or risks taking new players then bosses won't die and everyone leaves.
For people who bitch about time contraints so much they sure do expect everyone else to take time out of their day to teach players....

[Nobleshield]

Are we still blaming the few players who take the fucking initiative to form their own raid groups?

If they make too many exceptions or risks taking new players then bosses won't die and everyone leaves.
For people who bitch about time contraints so much they sure do expect everyone else to take time out of their day to teach players....

Mostly because those players tend to be the most vocal about "My guild fell apart because we can't get good people" and similar arguments.

[Deleted]

1) Watch videos of each fight (from the point of view of your class if you can)
2) Look at the strategy and / or read each tech on the different encounters
2bis) Ask for some precision to a friend (or just ask for it in the capital chat)
3) Explain that you are motivated AND that you know the fight since you've watched videos and know the techniques
4) If you're not taken to the pug, do the same to an appropriate guild.

Chosing the guild is part of your job so if it's not good enough, you made a bad choice - blaming the leader won't make things go any better even if you couldn't have foreseen his behaviour.
With motivation only, you shall find a good guild or one that will give you experience.
With motivation and experience, you can take to the next step, i.e. going to a better guild or staying with your new one and making it go even further.

Good luck but don't hesitate too much =) .

[slime]

Tell them that you don't stand in the fire, they love that.

[nightfalls]

Mostly because those players tend to be the most vocal about "My guild fell apart because we can't get good people" and similar arguments.

So people who take the initiative and go through the frustration of forming a group are the ones most vocal about their guilds failing after all the effort they put into the game. I never knew...

I've made my own pugs. It's absolutely awful, probably the only thing that is more frustrating is making/leading your own guild.

[chrisisvacant]

Inexperienced, stupid, egotistical, elitist, moronic.

Take your pick. Folks who demand kills even when the gear is there (and maybe other achievements indicating skill) are one or more of the above qualities. They've essentially killed pugs this way, locking good to great players out. Yeah, you can be a good to great player and despise raiding guild structures.

The kicker? A kill doesn't mean someone knows what they are doing at all. It is not evidence of anything but presence during a kill. Which means nothing. It means less than the gear you wear.

[rasako]

Well, yeah. Nobody wants to waste time in a pug teaching people how to play. It's just not an effective use of time. Guilds can "help" others progress, but you shouldn't expect other people to do it.

if you havent figured it out yet, raiding in wow is all about sucking people's dicks and gathering connections/popularity, I've had to watch that type of behavior for 8 years and finally just quit out because the raiding population is fairly dead now and I can't start pugs anymore like I used to

- - - Updated - - -

1) Watch videos of each fight (from the point of view of your class if you can)
2) Look at the strategy and / or read each tech on the different encounters
2bis) Ask for some precision to a friend (or just ask for it in the capital chat)
3) Explain that you are motivated AND that you know the fight since you've watched videos and know the techniques
4) If you're not taken to the pug, do the same to an appropriate guild.

Chosing the guild is part of your job so if it's not good enough, you made a bad choice - blaming the leader won't make things go any better even if you couldn't have foreseen his behaviour.
With motivation only, you shall find a good guild or one that will give you experience.
With motivation and experience, you can take to the next step, i.e. going to a better guild or staying with your new one and making it go even further.

Good luck but don't hesitate too much =) .

and here's where the problem comes in...this is a VIDEO GAME, not a life career path

[Nosferato]

i've got 525ilvl had 11/12, didnt have the achivment and all those who was looking for players for lei shen, i got either ignored, or they were rude if you asked for a spot, if you dont have the achivment, it doesnt matter how good a player you are,
even if you are in a guild who struggles and you could have left them for something better, but its not a option when you've been there for 6 years. funny thing was when i made a pug + sme guildies i didnt ask for the achivment when i was looking for ppl ,and i got 2 great puggers who didnt have the achivment, but was good players, but had the same bad luck as me, and i'm thinking its many ppl who are in the same boat.

[The Kao]

This whole dilemma exists almost as long as WoW itself, don't really see a point in discussing it further. Pugs are entirely player moderated, these players make the rules and if these rules say you won't come along you'll have to accept it. Might not be fair but nobody ever claimed it was. The only possible way to ever change this would be to have official Blizzard-moderated pugs or implement a group finder for normal and heroic raid content - like that's gonna happen.

Despite all the accessability changes and features that were added over the years the core game is still dedicated to those who can invest the time and ressources needed, if you can't do that LFR will be the maximum you get. They should really put this info on the box, would spare us lots of disappointed players.

[Christan]

show the achievements you got when they were current content, 3d before T9? good. things like that...
i know it's annoying to find a good (both in overall personality and skill) raiding guild...but that needs to be your first step
get your friends, and you, to start up a pug for ToT if not get into a guild.

also this:

1) Watch videos of each fight (from the point of view of your class if you can)
2) Look at the strategy and / or read each tech on the different encounters
2bis) Ask for some precision to a friend (or just ask for it in the capital chat)
3) Explain that you are motivated AND that you know the fight since you've watched videos and know the techniques
4) If you're not taken to the pug, do the same to an appropriate guild.

learn the fights well enough to lead the raid yourself watching video's etc, know when healers should blow cd's etc, not just your own role.
tell this pug raid leader, to ask you questions about the fights so he knows that you know, even down to "what color does thunderstruck show up as on the ground, and what to do when it happens?"

let them know not only do you know the mechanics, you also know what they look like.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

and here's where the problem comes in...this is a VIDEO GAME, not a life career path

That is part of playing an MMO in an organized environment. If you don't do your research, you are wasting not only your time but that of everybody else in the raid.

[TheNationGamer]

Find a 1-2 day raiding guild

I lied my ass off for my first serious raiding guild back in wrath and they accepted me

Only lie if you are a great liar lol...but other than that find a casual raid team

[RoKPaNda]

1) Watch videos of each fight (from the point of view of your class if you can)
2) Look at the strategy and / or read each tech on the different encounters
2bis) Ask for some precision to a friend (or just ask for it in the capital chat)
3) Explain that you are motivated AND that you know the fight since you've watched videos and know the techniques

This. If they don't accept you, they're likely stupid/a snob. Try another pug run by different people. Eventually you'll find one, and once you find that one that accepts you, you'll have an easier time getting into the other ones. If you even want to.

[Deleted]

Just wanted to pop in to say that I finally managed to kill Durumu, Primordius and Dark Animus thanks to someone who posted in this thread earlier. I hope I can get some more EXP tomorrow, or maybe next week.

I just hope I can get my final secret from Horridon tomorrow...

[Deleted]

Bingo hit the nail on the head, and people wonder why pugs are harder to find these days, running out of people who know everything already and can actually either need or be bothered to join a pug because of the attitude of those that run a lot of em.

What both you and Arothand forget, is that pugs are mostly formed by raider alts and not just random people with no experience.

Many guilds don't mind teaching new or inexperienced players, they just don't wanna do it in a pug run. Big difference between teaching a trial and then carrying a random pug.

[Deleted]

You know what pisses me off the most, the people that requires the achi, but doesnt have it themselves! I check armory of the people requesting a achi, and 80% of them dont have it themselves! Of the other 20% that does have the achi, 90% of them make the fuckups that leads to the wipes in the pug and then try to blame others.

I also bet you some of the jerks requesting the achi werent even alive for the final blow on the boss and the other 9 or even 8 players had to carry their sorry asses!
Yea unfortunately 90% of the pugs will require an achi, so for now do as some here has suggested, get the best gear you can, and start learning fights for 5.4 (PTR is a good place to start), so when 5.4 hits and pugs does not require achi yet, you can get your nose in there and who knows, maybe a guild will spot your skill and recruit you.

Hang in there, not all the players is as sad as the elite jerks (who forgot that they were also spoonfed, and DID NOT know every thing, and does make mistakes themselves).

PS. Not all the people that doesnt have the achi, does not know the fight, they maybe had some other responsabilities to give their attention to for a while and couldnt finish the 12/12 required! Just a thought

Bullshit rant with made up numbers neglecting the fact the progress on bottom of Armory is based on that character's progress not account. People do alt runs, ya know? Cause you progress on your main. That's why this whole problem exists. People realize players are generally a little bit less good on their alts, but don't want to teach anyone the mechanics cause they been there before already. Also, undergeared players will need more on gear. That is why the ilvl requirement is so high as it is. Is it ridiculous at times? Oh sure, and my alts suffer. Ie. I got 3 alts sitting on 505 equiped ilvl but if they require 520 for a complete clear and 510 for a fresh run I am not in. Ilvl doesn't even say everything cause higher ilvl doesn't necessarily mean better item.

- - - Updated - - -

and here's where the problem comes in...this is a VIDEO GAME, not a life career path

That isn't a problem; that is your problem. Because if you fail to complete these simple steps I do not want you in my raid and I won't miss you either. (Note that I currently don't do alt raids cause I got some other stuff to do.)

[MrExcelion]

In 5.4 I would definitely get some logs from Flex Mode. LFR suffices for now but Flex Mode will be the new standard for those without sufficient normal/heroic logs.

[Panjier]

and here's where the problem comes in...this is a VIDEO GAME, not a life career path

You're 100%, absolutely, positively, without a doubt correct my good sir. But if you aren't willing to go the extra mile so as not to waste another 9 or 24 other people's time then sit your ass in LFR and don't complain about the rest of us.

[unholyness]

In 5.4 I would definitely get some logs from Flex Mode. LFR suffices for now but Flex Mode will be the new standard for those without sufficient normal/heroic logs.

Except the 17ilvl difference and easier fights, a lot easier fights with Flex only 8ilvl above LFR, might help but won't be the step to get you over the hurdle. Just as LFR is 20 ilvls below Normal right now, Flex will be 17ilvls, so basically very comparable.

[Durandro]

So with my new guild I've killed 11/12 normal this week, with no prior (relivent) experience since MSV. Didn't get to do Lei Shen because they were still working on him and I'd not been around to practice with them on Tuesday. And they finally got the kill, which is great - Heroic Jin'rokh etc on Wednesday.

Getting a decent guild can happen, if you're lucky. I'm very lucky. Doesn't matter that I pulled my weight and proved I was good enough despite my substandard gear (only got a single ring upgrade this lockout, but hey, trial member and all) - they really didn't have to take me with the 'CV' I was offering. It was all down to them liking the way I said everything and then being extremely charming on teamspeak, but even then I was lucky they didn't give me the 'sorry but no experience or gear' routine!

Though they also impressed me with one of the questions on their guild application - which would I rather fight, a horse sized duck or a dozen duck sized horses and why. Made me laugh, which is good.