Turn Evil

[Tangra]

Atm on PTR, Turn Evil is not instant although the cast time is shorter than Repentance.

There are other benefits aswell vs. Rep:

- different dr so better synergy with certain classes, i.e. hunters
- displaces the target putting them in a bad position
- does not break on non truth damage like rep - I can get at least a judgment & prism off if not a judgment + exorcism before the next attack breaks the fear

its a nice buff and ret are getting some survivability and damage buffs too but they still feel too reliant on wings + guardian not to mention the usual problem of being useless during blankets

similarly to no cd casted cyclone for ferals, I think it'll be better vs. spellcleaves and worse vs. melee cleaves.

Repent does not break on Censure damage.

[Deleted]

for example?..

On PTR, unbreakable spirit reduces the cd of bubble and divine protection by 50%, so bubble is 2.5m and divine protection is 30 sec with the talent, so that's a pretty big survivability buff.

Also, having inquisition last for 20 sec per charge of holy power frees up more holy power to use on wogs.

Repent does not break on Censure damage.

I said "does not break on non truth damage like rep" :S

Anyway, rets are better of PTR but still revolve around wings et al. too much

I think that rets should get burden of guilt baseline though

[Tangra]

On PTR, unbreakable spirit reduces the cd of bubble and divine protection by 50%, so bubble is 2.5m and divine protection is 30 sec with the talent, so that's a pretty big survivability buff.

Also, having inquisition last for 20 sec per charge of holy power frees up more holy power to use on wogs.




I said "does not break on non truth damage like rep" :S

Anyway, rets are better of PTR but still revolve around wings et al. too much

I think that rets should get burden of guilt baseline though

For the 10 billionth time (not meant toward you personally), Ret produces and consumes so much Holy Power, that the current version of Unbreakable Spirit already practically provides that very same 50% reduction. Get on live, go on a dummy, and see how fast the cooldown of those abilities shrinks especially if you have Holy Avenger or Divine Purpose, not to mention that our 4pc generates Holy Power if we are being attacked, which is when you would need these abilities anyway. At the very most, the cooldown on Divine Protection will go from 35-40 sec to 30... that's it, Lay on Hands and Bubble are already incredibly easy to reduce to 50%.

Also, Clemency still completely blows it out of the water; in addition to it's massive benefits for any spec, Clemency also allows Ret to dispel twice with Hand of Sacrifice, and dispelling a teammate from CC is a massive survivability tool since your teammates can heal you or peel for you if they are not CCed.

The change to Unbreakable Spirit is not a buff, it's a testament to Blizzard's profound ignorance when it comes to Ret.

Yes I agree we still revolve around cooldowns way too much, and the Inquisition change is pretty massive, it also lets us use our cooldowns when ever the opportunity arises, rather than having to worry about popping Inquisition right before using cooldowns, or having to face the horrible drawback of refreshing Inquisition during cooldowns.

[Valedus]

Considering how strong our CD's are, Ret is fine outside of them. The damage isn't god awful anymore, and it is crazy during CD's. If you are getting completely shut down during CD's, save trinket and have healer dispel/fear ward/tremor/counter CC their CC class, etc. The only problem with Ret right now is slight squishiness. I would like to see the talent tree tier with Selfless Healer looked at for Ret. Probably just a scaling buff for Sacred Shield, or something.

Burden of Guilt baseline would be ridiculously OP, so no. It's not a solid talent in the tree right now because most of the time you aren't willing to give up Fist, but having both would be too good. I would rather just see a buff to Speed of Light for Ret or something. I almost wish Speed of Light was spec-specific.

Considering Holy needs a buff to self-peels after the crazy nerf to Blinding Light that made NO sense (Resto druid has same spammable CC and an aoe blind but theirs is 30 sec CD 3 sec duration, easier to chain more often.) I think Speed of light should be:

Holy: 25 sec CD sprint for 8-10 seconds, or maybe 6 seconds but are immune to movement impairs.
Ret/Prot: 16-20 sec CD gap closer with 30 yard range, or maybe longer CD (25) with utility tied like an aoe heal or breaks snares on allies when used nearby or something. A big part of Ret is supposed to be defensive team utility instead of heavy CC or heavy offensive utility such as purge.

This change is a nerf for Ret. Nobody will take the talent because they would rather have Fist and giving Turn evil a 15 sec CD and no instant cast glyph is a massive nerf to utility unless the glyph is strong as hell. I don't like it. I've said a million times that Burden of Guilt's spot should be a talent that just makes Blinding Light a 1 minute CD (and Blinding Light should be instant for Holy).

[Tangra]

1 min blinding light, with also the glyph baked in so 3 sec stun 6 sec blind, would be a pretty good option.

[Nairobi]

Considering how strong our CD's are, Ret is fine outside of them. The damage isn't god awful anymore, and it is crazy during CD's. If you are getting completely shut down during CD's, save trinket and have healer dispel/fear ward/tremor/counter CC their CC class, etc. The only problem with Ret right now is slight squishiness. I would like to see the talent tree tier with Selfless Healer looked at for Ret. Probably just a scaling buff for Sacred Shield, or something.

Agree with most of this. Would like to see SH get less "mandatory" for Ret somehow, since there's really no reason to run anything else. Maybe have SS increase crit chance of self-cast heals if it is on the player?

Burden of Guilt baseline would be ridiculously OP, so no. It's not a solid talent in the tree right now because most of the time you aren't willing to give up Fist, but having both would be too good. I would rather just see a buff to Speed of Light for Ret or something. I almost wish Speed of Light was spec-specific.

Agree that passive, free BoG would be pretty stronk with FoJ. Would like to see BoG-effect tied to Seal of Justice though, to give us a reason to use it. Like: Melee attacks AND Judging a target while SoJ is active causes the target to be affected by Seal of Justice.

Considering Holy needs a buff to self-peels after the crazy nerf to Blinding Light that made NO sense (Resto druid has same spammable CC and an aoe blind but theirs is 30 sec CD 3 sec duration, easier to chain more often.) I think Speed of light should be:

Holy: 25 sec CD sprint for 8-10 seconds, or maybe 6 seconds but are immune to movement impairs.
Ret/Prot: 16-20 sec CD gap closer with 30 yard range, or maybe longer CD (25) with utility tied like an aoe heal or breaks snares on allies when used nearby or something. A big part of Ret is supposed to be defensive team utility instead of heavy CC or heavy offensive utility such as purge.

I kind of agree that a sprint on 45 sec CD is a bit long, but...it's really not. You're looking at ~30-45% uptime on snareless sprint for Holy given the above. That's insane. SoL seems long, but it's really not that bad. Same deal with the gap-closer. I think Ret desperately needs an actual gap closer now that BoG is gone, but tying it to SoL may be clunky (given that you'd then lose LAotL). I'd rather just see a spec-specific ability for Ret (so that they don't make it weak/lame to balance Holy). Something like "Chains of Justice" - 8-40yd range, 30 sec CD ability that functions like Clash: You and your target are drawn together, target is rooted/snared after being Chained.
I can definitely lobby for a Gap closer as Ret, but not as Prot. There are far more times where I want to get SOMEWHERE fast, rather than to the boss fast (as Prot), like Lei Shen HC, JiKun HC, hell pretty much every boss in TOT heroic I use SoL as Prot. Gap closer might be nice, but I think Prot toolkit is fine with just the option of LAotL vs SoL.

This change is a nerf for Ret. Nobody will take the talent because they would rather have Fist and giving Turn evil a 15 sec CD and no instant cast glyph is a massive nerf to utility unless the glyph is strong as hell. I don't like it. I've said a million times that Burden of Guilt's spot should be a talent that just makes Blinding Light a 1 minute CD (and Blinding Light should be instant for Holy).

Again, agree 100%. Blue said "we made it like this so that Holy has better options for team comp". Really? REALLY? You made a carbon copy talent in the same tier, effectively removing the choice for that tier near entirely for Prot AND Ret, just so Holy can have a bit less DR in high end Arena play? REALLY? And this is supposed to be the "transparent" and "entry-level friendly" gameplay design? How many new subs out there even know what CC-DR is? Or what DR's with what anymore? Just astounding reasoning...

[Morally Grey Storm]

. Blue said "we made it like this so that Holy has better options for team comp". Really? REALLY? You made a carbon copy talent in the same tier, effectively removing the choice for that tier near entirely for Prot AND Ret, just so Holy can have a bit less DR in high end Arena play? REALLY? And this is supposed to be the "transparent" and "entry-level friendly" gameplay design? How many new subs out there even know what CC-DR is? Or what DR's with what anymore? Just astounding reasoning...

Common sense is not common.
Embrace it and accept it, you will make your life only easier.
true but sad.

[tuesday the paladin]

- different dr so better synergy with certain classes, i.e. hunters
- displaces the target putting them in a bad position
- does not break on non truth damage like rep - I can get at least a judgment & prism off if not a judgment + exorcism before the next attack breaks the fear

I honestly feel like this isn't enough to justify having two talents in the same to that effectively do the same thing. Get rid of repentance keep the turn evil talent, add a glyph for turn evil that makes the target cower, then add another interesting talent choice to the tier.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I honestly feel like this isn't enough to justify having two talents in the same to that effectively do the same thing. Get rid of repentance keep the turn evil talent, add a glyph for turn evil that makes the target cower, then add another interesting talent choice to the tier.

for all I care they could give Repentance to Ret as a baseline , instancast 1 minute cd(the old version), and in its place, incept an interesting "anti-CC" talent called Eye for an Eye: Each CC used against paladin backfires onto enemy for half the duration. Cannot occur more than once in 8(10) seconds.

[Valedus]

for all I care they could give Repentance to Ret as a baseline , instancast 1 minute cd(the old version), and in its place, incept an interesting "anti-CC" talent called Eye for an Eye: Each CC used against paladin backfires onto enemy for half the duration. Cannot occur more than once in 8(10) seconds.

If you are saying in ADDITION to what the person you quoted was saying... that'd be way too good. Ret would be able to:
Fear -> Repent -> HoJ -> Blinding light -> Fear someone... but I like the idea of the counter CC. 10 seconds is probably too low though. Something more like a 1.5 min CD trinket-like effect that puts the CC on the person that used it on you.

[Morally Grey Storm]

If you are saying in ADDITION to what the person you quoted was saying... that'd be way too good. Ret would be able to:
Fear -> Repent -> HoJ -> Blinding light -> Fear someone... but I like the idea of the counter CC. 10 seconds is probably too low though. Something more like a 1.5 min CD trinket-like effect that puts the CC on the person that used it on you.

you didnt get my idea.

My idea for E4E was that once every 10 seconds, next CC against you backfires onto enemy for half the duration, simple as that.

[Tecnice]

you didnt get my idea.

My idea for E4E was that once every 10 seconds, next CC against you backfires onto enemy for half the duration, simple as that.

Bad idea is bad. It WILL never happen.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Bad idea is bad. It WILL never happen.

sure as sure.

[Tecnice]

sure as sure.

Did you make that up?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Did you make that up?

no, it's a quote from a specifically calm and well-reasoned fictional person.

[masta]

I quited wow 24 months ago and havent logged in yet.I have been checking mmochampion forums because I thought i missed the game. I was going to spend 30 Euro on mop , 15 euro for sub just to play a few months. After I see this change I decided not to do so because bliz still have no logical ground how to develope a class. Now Im spending 45 Euros on Itunes for new albums

[Tangra]

Sure wish they would at least give us an idea of where they are going with redesigning Glyph of Turn Evil... would really hate to have some complete crap glyph dumped on us in one of the last builds when there no time to listen to feedback.

We are losing Burden of Guilt as an option, instant Turn Evil against Dk pets, Warlock Pets, and Priest fiends, all so that Holy can have more comps available to them. It's pretty pathetic that they are presenting Evil is a Point of View as an option for Rets... we don't take Repent because it has a cast-time, why would we take Turn Evil (20 yard range and 1.5 sec cast-time? What a joke for a melee, your CC target has to be dumb enough to come within 20 yards of you and then sit there for the entire cast-time... lol)

I can see it now:

Glyph of Turn Evil - Your turn evil spell is now also usable against critters.

[Sett]

And hello glyph change.


Again.

[Nairobi]

And hello glyph change.


Again.

If what they mined is accurate, I like the idea. 2 sec duration is a bit clunky for all involved though, but I suspect anything more and we'd be looking at "too mandatory" or whatever.

[Angelyka]

I like new castable fear and i can always slow my enemy with soj (until 50% slow becomes baseline)