What would you think of raids gaining difficulty past heroic?

[Airwaves]

You don't actually believe Blizzard will scrap Heroic modes do you? Maybe if they make normal modes Sunwell difficult again.

Yes i do. With mmos coming to mass market casual gamers with next gen consoles blizzard is going make massive changes to wow over the next few years. And those massive changes are going to see them push more and more casual content to keep people playing wow. They are going to stop altogether making ANYTHING for hardcore gamers and put 100% of there effort in casual content. Within the next few years heroic content will be done by less then 0.5% of the player base so they will stop even putting the time into balancing heroic raids. They also know even if they got rid of heroic content of those very very few people that do them 90% will still stick around and do the casual stuff.

Over the next few years mmos are going to see there biggest changes they have ever seen all because the mass market of console gamers will be able to get there hands on mmos. Hell even blizzard has started those changes. They scraped Titan to start it again so it can be release on consoles and pcs. Blizzard knows where they money is at and it sure as hell isn't with hardcore gamers.

[Wildtree]

Judging by the amount of players regarding game difficulty, it's a bit like this scale may be..

[========================================================================================== ==============================================================================] players never raiding at all..

[=============================================] amount of players using LFR difficulty only

[======================] amount of players using Normal mode

[=======] amount of players using heroic mode


Now what would be left?

[==] super heroic mode. For whom? The 1000 players that are basically the best guilds in the world? Worth making a whole new set of mechanics for them? I don't think so.

[Dormie]

Yes i do. With mmos coming to mass market casual gamers with next gen consoles blizzard is going make massive changes to wow over the next few years. And those massive changes are going to see them push more and more casual content to keep people playing wow. They are going to stop altogether making ANYTHING for hardcore gamers and put 100% of there effort in casual content. Within the next few years heroic content will be done by less then 0.5% of the player base so they will stop even putting the time into balancing heroic raids. They also know even if they got rid of heroic content of those very very few people that do them 90% will still stick around and do the casual stuff.

Over the next few years mmos are going to see there biggest changes they have ever seen all because the mass market of console gamers will be able to get there hands on mmos. Hell even blizzard has started those changes. They scraped Titan to start it again so it can be release on consoles and pcs. Blizzard knows where they money is at and it sure as hell isn't with hardcore gamers.

Until Blizzard and other MMOs realize it isn't sustainable or good game design. One company will have an amazing NON CASUAL ORIENTED(not that they wouldn't have something to do) game in the next few years. It's bound to happen with all of these games coming out, one of them will get it right.
People forget that the playerbase isn't JUST casuals and hardcores, there's many different places in between. So saying the game will be 100% casual oriented is silly, because there aren't THAT many true casuals(people with absolutely no time for the game).

Also, no. I doubt heroic raids are going anywhere, if anything it will just be something similar with a different name. The game can't get much more casual than it is outside of a couple changes. Making it any more casual will shoo off any remaining serious fans they have.

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[==] super heroic mode. For whom? The 1000 players that are basically the best guilds in the world? Worth making a whole new set of mechanics for them? I don't think so.

Another person trying to play Blizzard Resource Manager.

You know, in Wrath heroic raids were pretty popular. You might not have a raid full of them but it was good being able to switch certain bosses over to heroic if you could handle it. And that wasn't outside of the realm of 'casual' raiders.

[Blackmist]

I like the idea of talented people being able to push themselves. I wouldn't do it because I'm not good enough, but I would appreciate that it exists and some people would do it. Be interesting to see if the top guilds carried on pushing themselves (world first Ji-Kun HC + 50%, etc), or if they'd simply burn out.

If anything, I'd like to see the extra mechanics from heroic in normal difficulty (making a level between normal and heroic), without requiring the ilvl jump. Farming a set of gear once per tier is enough for me. I'm starting on heroics (3 down atm), and it's getting a little tiring at this point in the patch. For me, the gear treadmill is becoming the albatross around WoW's neck.

[Airwaves]

Judging by the amount of players regarding game difficulty, it's a bit like this scale may be..

[========================================================================================== ==============================================================================] players never raiding at all..

[========================================================================================== =================] amount of players using LFR difficulty only

[===] amount of players using Normal mode

[=] amount of players using heroic mode


Now what would be left?

[] super heroic mode. For whom? The 1000 players that are basically the best guilds in the world? Worth making a whole new set of mechanics for them? I don't think so.

There we go fixed it.

[Dormie]

There we go fixed it.

Fixed to fit your notions.

[Airwaves]

Until Blizzard and other MMOs realize it isn't sustainable or good game design.

Have to looked how well cod has done? 100% casual works ridiculously well to make money. Blizzard don't care what type of player they get as long as it is making them money. They are a business, they arn't here to make friends with players.

[Deleted]

This game got to many difficulty levels as it is, imo it was way better in TBC-style. Where a boss was a boss, and there wasnt more difficulties of the same.

Just my 2cents

[Dormie]

Have to looked how well cod has done? 100% casual works ridiculously well to make money. Blizzard don't care what type of player they get as long as it is making them money. They are a business, they arn't here to make friends with players.

CoD=/=MMORPG.

MMORPG and a true casual game like you are suggesting do not mix well if your trying to keep their integrity.

Where a boss was a boss, and there wasnt more difficulties of the same.

Yes, I like the way you put it. The current system is immersion killing to me for that reason.

[Airwaves]

This game got to many difficulty levels as it is, imo it was way better in TBC-style. Where a boss was a boss, and there wasnt more difficulties of the same.

Just my 2cents

Except nobody did them so raids were a waste of development time. LFR has saved raiding... for the time being.

[Dormie]

Except nobody did them so raids were a waste of development time. LFR has saved raiding... for the time being.

You don't know what you're saying. They were everyone's focus despite who did what.

[Airwaves]

CoD=/=MMORPG.

MMORPG and a true casual game like you are suggesting do not mix well if your trying to keep their integrity.

Game type wasn't my point. My point was that those casual gamers that play cod are going to get there hands on MMO's with next gen consoles. And those casual gamers are where the money is at. Not the few 1000s people that do heroic raids.

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You don't know what you're saying.

Have you seen how few of the player base ever did them? I know what i am saying. You are obviously a raider stuck in the past and can not see the changes coming. Not going to bother to argue with you anymore. Come back to this thread in a few years and you will see just how right i am.

[Dormie]

Game type wasn't my point. My point was that those casual gamers that play cod are going to get there hands on MMO's with next gen consoles. And those casual gamers are where the money is at. Not the few 1000s people that do heroic raids.

- - - Updated - - -



Have you seen how few of the player base ever did them? I know what i am saying. You are obviously a raider stuck in the past and can not see the changes coming. Not going to bother to argue with you anymore.

Game type was the point of the quote you quoted me on. All I said was that these games won't disappear.

And no you don't know what your saying. All you know is herp derp 1% did Sunwell.

Weird how raiding was everyones focus yet no one does them...


Bottom line. If it aint broke don't fix it, and Wrath/BC weren't broke. Not completely, the ONLY problem with the previous raid system was guild poaching. And that could of been addressed when they added the guild system they have now, possible encouraging people to stay with their guilds. Games like WoW from Vanilla-Wrath don't get as big as they did out of bad game design.

[Tsuna]

The current system is fine. The only thing missing is a method for teaching raiders how to not be raging mediocrities and actually learn their class in a game driven environment rather than a fan run information board. LFR was supposed to have become that tool for teaching new players the content on an easier scale but it failed utterly and entirely in that goal and instead was rebuilt as a welfare truck for distributing free loot to anyone with 45 minutes and the mental capacity to click enter queue from a menu.

Being realistic, Blizzard cannot backtrack to BC style progression any longer because the gating was done through massive dps and hps checks and blatant class stacking rather than the current challenges of perfect execution of mechanics. Arguably, the content is far too easy for players of the highest caliber on WoW, but MOST players aren't at that level so the content is accessible for all, but attainable by fewer, which is ideal. The difficulty is finding a balance so that everyone still has a goal to strive for, because without any goals there's no reason to play an mmo whatsoever. Blizz is very close to this good balance and 5.4 with flex mode raiding seems to be another step in the right direction.

[Dormie]

The current system is fine. The only thing missing is a method for teaching raiders how to not be raging mediocrities and actually learn their class in a game driven environment rather than a fan run information board. LFR was supposed to have become that tool for teaching new players the content on an easier scale but it failed utterly and entirely in that goal and instead was rebuilt as a welfare truck for distributing free loot to anyone with 45 minutes and the mental capacity to click enter queue from a menu.

Being realistic, Blizzard cannot backtrack to BC style progression any longer because the gating was done through massive dps and hps checks and blatant class stacking rather than the current challenges of perfect execution of mechanics. Arguably, the content is far too easy for players of the highest caliber on WoW, but MOST players aren't at that level so the content is accessible for all, but attainable by fewer, which is ideal. The difficulty is finding a balance so that everyone still has a goal to strive for, because without any goals there's no reason to play an mmo whatsoever. Blizz is very close to this good balance and 5.4 with flex mode raiding seems to be another step in the right direction.

Except a higher difficulty of the same dungeon isn't a 'goal to strive for' for a lot a players.

[XDurionX]

To my mind 2 difficulties are enough, one (slightly easier) normal mode and heroic. They might, however, add a monster power-slider like in D§ that might ( to a certain extent) affect drop rates (not quality)

[Raelbo]

Remember Spinal Tap and the guy's argument about his amp that goes to 11? This is the same thing

One thing is clear: The game needs more different difficulty settings than it currently has, simply because of the diversity within the raider playerbase. Put basically, the competency of the entry level raider doesn't change much because it consists of people who either reached their own skill cap or of new raiders. However the top end of the spectrum is always improving and will continue to do so as the players up there continue to play.

In other words, we have people who have been raiding at a very high level for 8 years, vs people who have never stepped foot into anything beyond LFR. Obviously the difficulty for these two audiences needs to be different, and there needs to be stuff for all the people in between.

Whether you add an elite mode to the top end, or something like Flex-Raid as they are planning to do, makes little difference - it achieves the same thing - allowing them to provide content that is better tuned to a larger portion of the raid community.

[Bird man]

Really just a fantastic idea!!!

[Naxere]

Four difficulty levels is more than enough.

[Ciddy]

Meh, I dunno. I think the current system handles things pretty well. Most games that I can remember back in the day just had 3 difficulty levels (easy, normal, hard), and that was it. It seemed to work pretty well. Most newer games I've seen seem to have like 5+ different difficulty levels, ranging from "beginner" which is basically "a monkey could be trained to do this" to "brutal" which is basically "you have to be a fucking ninja cyborg to beat this." They start to get redundant at that point, because there is almost no difference between "beginner" and "easy" modes.

I think what WoW currently has fits pretty well. I haven't read up yet on how this "flex mode" or whatever it's called is going to work though.