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  1. #81
    I had to skip the bovine fencers thing, seemed way too pedantic.
    Good word for it. Fencers and I seem to always clash like that, she talks around the issues and deals in technicalities like a politician whereas I try to just approach things as they really, functionally are. She'd be a better lawyer than me, I suppose.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    In any case, my point remains. There was a VERY strong implication of "Level 1 is just like Level 80 (in other games)!" rather than "Level 80 is just like Level 1!" The point can be made just fine without defining "epic" at all. (Which is why I said what I said about epic in my post in the first place.)
    While there are things that they didn't deliver on, I think this is something they did deliver. They said you'd get large scale encounters with more mechanics to them, and you do, even in the level 1 starter pre-areas. The difficulty/ intricacy of the encounters does increase as you level, and a lot of the mechanics are just ignored due to the Zerg Effect, but from the start in GW2 there's meaningful encounters rather than collecting rat tails or boar entrails or something.

  3. #83
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    While there are things that they didn't deliver on, I think this is something they did deliver. They said you'd get large scale encounters with more mechanics to them, and you do, even in the level 1 starter pre-areas. The difficulty/ intricacy of the encounters does increase as you level, and a lot of the mechanics are just ignored due to the Zerg Effect, but from the start in GW2 there's meaningful encounters rather than collecting rat tails or boar entrails or something.
    Shadow Behemoth - lvl 15 boss blowing new player's minds since launch -3
    Valar morghulis

  4. #84
    While there are things that they didn't deliver on, I think this is something they did deliver. They said you'd get large scale encounters with more mechanics to them, and you do, even in the level 1 starter pre-areas. The difficulty/ intricacy of the encounters does increase as you level, and a lot of the mechanics are just ignored due to the Zerg Effect, but from the start in GW2 there's meaningful encounters rather than collecting rat tails or boar entrails or something.
    Shadow Behemoth - lvl 15 boss blowing new player's minds since launch -3
    I guess this is where the issue of "feel" versus how the encounter actually works comes into play.

    Yes, Shadow Behemoth is a big bunch of pixels. As are all the "starter instance" boss mobs and stuff like The Shatterer. But that's all they are, big masses of pixels. No real substance in the encounters. Which I know a lot of people think is fun, so I guess there's some issues of personal taste there, but as for me I find it hard to be impressed by an enemy that's basically just a picture that you stare at for 45 seconds and then get loot.

    But yes, I know some people place a tremendous amount of value on things just being pretty, being big, involving lots of people, so on and so forth, and they really couldn't care less about the "game" aspect. So the PvE is great for them. It's just hard for me to look at it and take ANet seriously, especially when they compared it to the endgame of other MMO's.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Good word for it. Fencers and I seem to always clash like that, she talks around the issues and deals in technicalities like a politician whereas I try to just approach things as they really, functionally are. She'd be a better lawyer than me, I suppose.
    Depends on what you exactly do. Some courts it's better to speak "commonly" so jurors connect others it's more about technicalities. The most succesful lawyers sadly are the ones who can do both and rally a crowd which will always impact others, even judges who are supposed to be objective.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Shadow Behemoth - lvl 15 boss blowing new player's minds since launch -3
    Did they ever fix the fire shaman in the Charr starter zone? That guy could take 30+ down at 10% or less, and the mobs respawning quickly made that event even worse. The Charr starter zone* and the convoluted crafting system made me quit that game (most of the starter zones that weren't the human zones sucked).

    *Good luck getting anything done there. That place was a ghost town within 2 weeks of release.

  7. #87
    That reminds me, Mele, you ever play poker? No-Limit Hold 'em or anything? I have a feeling that - like me - you'd have a good grasp of what to do on paper, but end up tilting off your stack every night after someone sucks out a 2% chance win on you.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I guess this is where the issue of "feel" versus how the encounter actually works comes into play.

    Yes, Shadow Behemoth is a big bunch of pixels. As are all the "starter instance" boss mobs and stuff like The Shatterer. But that's all they are, big masses of pixels. No real substance in the encounters. Which I know a lot of people think is fun, so I guess there's some issues of personal taste there, but as for me I find it hard to be impressed by an enemy that's basically just a picture that you stare at for 45 seconds and then get loot.

    But yes, I know some people place a tremendous amount of value on things just being pretty, being big, involving lots of people, so on and so forth, and they really couldn't care less about the "game" aspect. So the PvE is great for them. It's just hard for me to look at it and take ANet seriously, especially when they compared it to the endgame of other MMO's.
    That's sort of my point though, the issue with the encounters is the Zerg, not the encounter itself. (Except of course for the scaling system)

    Shadow Behemoth is meh, but Frozen Maw/ Fire Elemental/ Wurm, they don't just fall over dead when there's only 10 players nearby. The sheer number of players at the encounters negate most of the encounter mechanics. So yeah, I think there's a scaling problem with the encounters but I don't think the encounters aren't there. Like Jormag, half the people at the encounter don't understand how it works...

    An open-world raid boss is not the same difficulty/ style as an instanced one, but they're still similar encounters.

  9. #89
    I'm quite good at poker actually and that 2% chance is infuriating but the people I play with always get a laugh out of it so I'm not fussed. I only play with money that I don't mind losing so I'm not really bothered when it happens. (I've been on a streak of 5 wins now )

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Good word for it. Fencers and I seem to always clash like that, she talks around the issues and deals in technicalities like a politician whereas I try to just approach things as they really, functionally are. She'd be a better lawyer than me, I suppose.
    I did speak about things exactly as they are; If you look at some of their early pitch stuff, there was verbiage like, "Unlike other games, you don't have to get to max level to see the epic encounters in GW2!"

    That actually happens. And as I said several times- issues of how challenging, epic or demanding or whatever are of no object value to anyone but you. Which is fine. It's cool if the shadow behemoth doesn't impress you much, but that encounter is accessible and triggered early on in the game all the same.

    Just as stated here: They made a very specific point of referencing end game content in other MMO's when discussing this topic. They brought it up, pointed at it, and said, "In GW2, you don't have to be max level to experience that content!" so yes, by doing that they created an expectation that "Level 1 in GW2 will have content like Level 80 in other MMO's!" and not, "Level 80 in GW2 will be just like Level 1 in any MMO!"


    You don't wait till max level to engage in that type of content in GW2. That type of content is meaningful at level 1 as 80.

    There is no inaccuracy or disingenuous pitch other than perhaps Johnny doesn't think the Shatterer is epic enough. As originally stated; merely reader ignorance &/or misunderstanding.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Seukos View Post
    I wonder what their sub numbers even are these days?
    Subs are rock-bottom.
    Does anybody even subscribe to GW2 these days? I can't imagine why anybody would.
    Last I heard, they were under 10 subscribers. I don't know how they're keeping the game alive.

    Jokes aside - go ahead and read this. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/l...ars-2-in-2013/
    GW2 is a lot better than it was on launch. I started playing again after a 2-3 month break - and it's much nicer. Players are rewarded for doing varied things in the world and dungeons (appropriately) - and soon Champions will get a change that makes them guarenteed to drop something neat and unique to them for unique skins.

    A big problem is all the temporary content. Every 2 weeks, ANet is putting in content that lasts until the next temp. content.
    it'd be better if, for a new player who just finished the story and asks "So what now?", you could say "Ever since then, here's ALL OF THIS CONTENT!" But you can't. You just point them towards the current 2-week period's content.

    It is that way because, by pushing people to come on bi-weekly, ANet is maximizing profit from the gem store with temporary gem-store items.
    That sucks - and they've acknowledged in their recent blog that they're going to add more permanent content.

  12. #92
    Herald of the Titans Lora's Avatar
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    It's gotten pretty solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  13. #93
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Shadow Behemoth - lvl 15 boss blowing new player's minds since launch -3
    Is that the one that dies just by looking at it?

    World bosses look pretty, but so zergy they offer nothing interesting playstyle wise.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I did speak about things exactly as they are; If you look at some of their early pitch stuff, there was verbiage like, "Unlike other games, you don't have to get to max level to see the epic encounters in GW2!"
    Admittedly it's somewhat ingenious from a marketing perspective. GW2 doesn't have an endgame (as defined by your average PvE player) and the leveling grind felt pretty much the same as it did in WAR or RIFT, and even the currency grind works pretty much the same, except maybe that Karma is more valuable than those Planar things you got in RIFT.

    That actually happens. And as I said several times- issues of how challenging, epic or demanding or whatever are of no object value to anyone but you. Which is fine. It's cool if the shadow behemoth doesn't impress you much, but that encounter is accessible and triggered early on in the game all the same.
    How is that different from RIFT's nonstop invasions? In GW2 people are running from event to event, with the occasional boss battle in between. In RIFT people are running from rift to rift, with the occasional boss battle in between. The difference is that in GW2 you just keep doing that when you hit max level, in RIFT you grind raid encounters (which is what PvE players want).

    Just as stated here: They made a very specific point of referencing end game content in other MMO's when discussing this topic. They brought it up, pointed at it, and said, "In GW2, you don't have to be max level to experience that content!" so yes, by doing that they created an expectation that "Level 1 in GW2 will have content like Level 80 in other MMO's!" and not, "Level 80 in GW2 will be just like Level 1 in any MMO!"
    I guess that's the major misunderstanding. The part that most people want to get done with quickly in other games is GW2's endgame. Damn that's good.

    You don't wait till max level to engage in that type of content in GW2. That type of content is meaningful at level 1 as 80.
    The problem here seems to be that "that type of content" means different things to most PvE players and AN.

    There is no inaccuracy or disingenuous pitch other than perhaps Johnny doesn't think the Shatterer is epic enough. As originally stated; merely reader ignorance &/or misunderstanding.
    AN wasn't disingenuous about that part. I don't think they ever claimed that there would be PvE raids. They did, however, lie about gear progression (Ascended, Celestial), made major mistakes concerning gear accessibility (crafting only yielding Power based items, Soldier's gear being the only set attainable through WvW) and class balance, which is most likely why the serious PvP players left.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Feranor View Post
    (which is what PvE players want).
    Oh really? Tell me more about what I, and others, want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Feranor View Post
    in RIFT you grind raid encounters (which is what PvE players want).
    Oh yeah? Damn, I guess I better change my preferences then. I always hated raids. I didn't know I was supposed to want to grind raids.

  17. #97
    There is no inaccuracy or disingenuous pitch other than perhaps Johnny doesn't think the Shatterer is epic enough. As originally stated; merely reader ignorance &/or misunderstanding.
    You keep focusing on the word "epic" even though I made it very clear - and I know you read it - that "epic" is not the defining factor here.

    The issue is how ANet presented their PvE system. They didn't say, "Oh, at level 80 you'll be doing the same thing you'll be doing at level 1" because that wouldn't have sold boxes quite as well. Instead they pointed at other MMO's endgames and said, "You can do THAT in our game, only you don't have to grind to max level first." I don't blame them for saying that. Like I said, the more honest truth wouldn't have sold boxes as well.

    Now, you can argue the semantics and technicalities all day long, but the fact is that content in GW2 is objectively not comparable to the "Traditional MMO Endgame" content at all. A 5 year old could see the difference, even if people wrapped up in technicalities want to argue about how big Shadow Behemoth is or the fact that The Shatterer is a "raid".

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Even if people wrapped up in technicalities want to argue about how big Shadow Behemoth is or the fact that The Shatterer is a "raid".
    To me those are open world bosses not raids. And most of those are fairly trivial mechanics wise anyway for the same reason (you outscale the boss eventually). I remember on my server in wow several guilds got tired of not working together due to tagging, so they "rotated" who got the tag each week so everyone could get loot without having to camp the spawn or worry about getting ganked.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Feranor View Post
    Admittedly it's somewhat ingenious from a marketing perspective. GW2 doesn't have an endgame (as defined by your average PvE player) and the leveling grind felt pretty much the same as it did in WAR or RIFT, and even the currency grind works pretty much the same, except maybe that Karma is more valuable than those Planar things you got in RIFT.
    Except, the tagline is used as a contrast to a bimodal endgame. Which is accurate.

    And both Rift and WAR are linear and bimodal progression systems without a definite cap. Even the currency is linear and bimodal in a game like Rift.

    That is to say at some point corrupted sourcestone yields to inscribed sourcestone that than yields to empyreal sourcestone which yields to infinity sourcestone and that doesn't even cover the expert classic currency, raid tier 1, 2 and 3 classic currency, sl expert currency and sl raid tier 1 and 2 currency. Plus gold + plus limited event currency + reputation.

    That is a pretty big philosophical difference in design from GW2 where karma & money are always relative and consistent throughout the game. Distinctly singular design.

    How is that different from RIFT's nonstop invasions?
    Because those events are level & gear limited in Rift. One can not even hit the Dendrome baddies or Volan under X, Y and Z thresholds. You have to meet those absolutely in Rift and WAR.

    In GW2, this is not the case and the play systems are designed to reward one for completing content above their actual strength.

    ... in RIFT you grind raid encounters (which is what PvE players want).
    Whoa, whoa. You mean which is what some PVE players want.

    The problem here seems to be that "that type of content" means different things to most PvE players and AN.
    Indeed it does.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-07-26 at 04:19 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    You keep focusing on the word "epic" even though I made it very clear - and I know you read it - that "epic" is not the defining factor here.

    The issue is how ANet presented their PvE system. They didn't say, "Oh, at level 80 you'll be doing the same thing you'll be doing at level 1" because that wouldn't have sold boxes quite as well. Instead they pointed at other MMO's endgames and said, "You can do THAT in our game, only you don't have to grind to max level first." I don't blame them for saying that. Like I said, the more honest truth wouldn't have sold boxes as well.

    Now, you can argue the semantics and technicalities all day long, but the fact is that content in GW2 is objectively not comparable to the "Traditional MMO Endgame" content at all. A 5 year old could see the difference, even if people wrapped up in technicalities want to argue about how big Shadow Behemoth is or the fact that The Shatterer is a "raid".
    Well, that's sort of the thing. They didn't say "you're going to raid at low levels", they said you'll get to see those kinds of encounters. Shadow Behemoth can be reduced to "don't stand in bad stuff" and "handle adds/ portals", but so can quite a lot of raid bosses. As compared to the average encounter while leveling which is basically "hit and be hit until one of you dies". I remember them using the Charr starting area Baradin encounter as an example at various points even. I really think you just got a misconception of what they said and it's stuck in your mind, rather than them actually leading folks to believe you'd have raids at level 15.

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