Did GC really just say Cata Heroics were hard?

[Deleted]

I remember the first cata heroic I joined, it was 3 or 4 days after cata release. It was Vortex Pinacle and I was kicked because I asked for the tactics. I guess people expect other to go into new content already knowing the tactics. Thanksfully MoP was easy enough to learn the tactics while doing it.

[Deficineiron]

That's what happens when stupid and wrong ideas about game design collide with actual customer response.

Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.

blizzard doesn't appear to fire ANY prominent names. many comments on non-game sites (glasshouse, etc) describe it as a boys club for a certain group of people who, when they screw up, get their responsibilities reduced, at worst, as a consequence.

- - - Updated - - -

It was a gross misreading of the overall preferences and capabilities of their customer base. Of course there were individuals who liked it; the error was in bad marketing, assuming individuals like yourself were more typical than you actually are.

to be fair, I think there are other dynamics at work which you might consider - such as the impact of LFD on how runnable these dungeons were. LFD would have made TBC heroic pugs impossible.

[Klingers]

Cata Heroics were hard at the start of the expansion for about a month. Not because they were hard so much, just mainly because idiot Wrathbaby tanks thought they could just blunder on in and battering-ram their way through half the instance while the healer was OOM, and idiot DPS thought they could just keep standing in fire while the healer healed them through it.

Eventually they nerfed them when the Wrathbabies proved incapable of coordination, self-control or any kind of teamwork.

[Ronduwil]

I remember the first cata heroic I joined, it was 3 or 4 days after cata release. It was Vortex Pinacle and I was kicked because I asked for the tactics. I guess people expect other to go into new content already knowing the tactics. Thanksfully MoP was easy enough to learn the tactics while doing it.

That's because they knew you were going to get flung off the side of the path on the first few pulls, that you were going to be owned by whirlwinds on the first fight, and that you would going to spend half the second fight suspended in the air by tornados and/or flung off the platform. They knew you wouldn't stand in the triangle on the last boss and that you wouldn't know to interrupt the healers on all the trash pulls of the second half of the instance. Then again, what would I know? I'm silly enough to have thought that stuff was hard despite having done it day in and day out for the better part of a year.

[jakeic]

GC is not infallible, but he didn't get to his position by being an idiot either.

there is a business theory that states something to the effect of employees will eventually be promoted to a level beyond their competency.

[Deficineiron]

That's more of an issue with LFG and badge-over-gearing than with difficulty. In my personal opinion, LFG and badge-gear was a bad addition to WoW. Yes grouping was faster and especially in LK it didn't matter how shit your tank was, because even if he never pressed a button you could manage the heroics. But the majority of the people severely outgeared the instances after a few runs and never ever experience the real game.

only thing I would offer is that badge gear, particularly 2.4 badge gear, took a LOT Of effort and./or calendar time to acquire. You weren't going out getting a 150-badge 2.4 item every few days. I suspect most players that accumulated badges may never have earned 150 boj's, total, given how long 2.4 was live. Even just doing kara lockouts, it was almost 2 months for that 150 badge item.

I think this level of gradual extra item acquisition via badges is a totally different dynamic than what came later. Yes, it did provide an alternate gear path vs. raiding, but man if you got that 150 badge whatever, you sure as hell worked for it.

[Dreknar20]

. I guess people expect other to go into new content already knowing the tactics.

God forbid people expect you to pull your own weight. I mean what assholes for using such an idea.......

[Deleted]

That's because they knew you were going to get flung off the side of the path on the first few pulls, that you were going to be owned by whirlwinds on the first fight, and that you would going to spend half the second fight suspended in the air by tornados and/or flung off the platform. They knew you wouldn't stand in the triangle on the last boss and that you wouldn't know to interrupt the healers on all the trash pulls of the second half of the instance. Then again, what would I know? I'm silly enough to have thought that stuff was hard despite having done it day in and day out for the better part of a year.

Well people could just say, this mob/moss does this and that.

[Deficineiron]

Yes, it would have taken real coordination. I'm not talking about average or even good players attempting this, I'm talking about the best players.

6 Hours isn't that long of a time to not take a piss. I've seen people go without bathroom breaks for 12+ hours when marathoning, so that's not an issue. Travel could have been mitigated by having other characters logged out at the summoning stones. 2 People log to alts, summon the other 3, log back to their mains, get summoned by their 3 party members. There'd be virtually no travel time and no bathroom or food breaks. And no one would make mistakes, because I'm assuming a theoretical optimal run. Invisibility potions would also be used where optimal.

I think you could do 6 hours with plenty of time to spare.

once you eliminate any right to bio breaks, and creatively get around travel mechanics, then you are at what, 360 minutes for 15/16 instances? 25 minutes per?

I find it hard, hard, to imagine, even in full t6. (no skipping bosses btw)! I also think it would have been publicized if it had been done (was it? don't know)

[Dreknar20]

Well people could just say, this mob/moss does this and that.

or you could figure that stuff out yourself?
People dont use LFD to teach people they run it to complete the dungeon as fast/painlessly as possible

[Vankrys]

In my opinion in the long term it is better to strive for a goal than get it served on a platter. Content isn't gone if you are 10 level higher its just easier, currently you just get the illusion of doing something instead

i totally agree, one of my favorite quote is

“It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” from Ursula Le Guin

[zenyatta]

God forbid people expect you to pull your own weight. I mean what assholes for using such an idea.......

If you'd tell the guy how to do the fight ("dodge tornadoes, stand with the wind blowing at your back for haste" takes what, 10 seconds to type?) the guy likely would have been fine.

Interesting sig, by the way. I see why you chose it. Food for thought.

[Dreknar20]

Interesting sig, by the way. I see why you chose it. Food for thought.

its a badass pic with a badass quote, what the hell does that have to with anything?

- - - Updated - - -

If you'd tell the guy how to do the fight

people join LFD to finish an instance as painlessly/quickly as possible, not teach others.
Same reason people ask for achieves for PuGs or whatever, its not an asshole move its just logical

[Vankrys]

If you'd tell the guy how to do the fight ("dodge tornadoes, stand with the wind blowing at your back for haste" takes what, 10 seconds to type?) the guy likely would have been fine.

Interesting sig, by the way. I see why you chose it. Food for thought.

why would the guy decide not to read the dungeon journal and expect tactics to be explained to him?

[Askyl]

My take on Cataclysm heroics:

I was max lvl 4 days after release (Holy Paladin). In 1 out 3 groups the heroics failed totally, in 1 out of 3 groups it was very very hard and in 1 out of 3 groups it was hard.

When I played with friends/guildies on teamspeak/mumble with good CC, they were actually pretty easy. ABSOLUTLEY not as hard as TBC heroics, most heroics was harder than T5 content (if you had blue gear, compared to T4 gear in T5 content) when TBC was released. I think they balanced the difficutly very good with heroic dungeons in Cataclysm. With friends, easy. With randoms, hard (but managable).

[nekobaka]

You need to realize that most of the community uses the LFG tool, so hard dungeons that require using your brain and CC'ing mobs isn't a good thing since 80% of those groups will probably fail just like they did early cata. If you want to blame anything for faceroll 5mans, blame Wotlk for introducing aoefest heroics.

Sauce on numbers or are you pulling numbers out of your ass? From where I am standing I had more of an 80% success rate while solo queuing.

If you'd tell the guy how to do the fight ("dodge tornadoes, stand with the wind blowing at your back for haste" takes what, 10 seconds to type?) the guy likely would have been fine.

Interesting sig, by the way. I see why you chose it. Food for thought.

I was a fairly helpful person in my runs. From time to time though I would run into that player who would say something along the lines of shut up and carry me. These players was in the minority but they sure could ruin the experience for the majority.

[Mormolyce]

By the middle/end of the expansion I remember steamrolling them like any other heroic dungeon.

No kidding. You can overgear content in WoW? Stop the presses.

P.S. They were nerfed hard by that point. Twice, IIRC.

[Brakthir]

Cata heroics were pretty hard in quest greens/blues. As everything, they became significantly easier with better gear and competent players. Slightly less difficult than BC heroics.

[bionics]

Cata heroics were pretty hard in quest greens/blues. As everything, they became significantly easier with better gear and competent players. Slightly less difficult than BC heroics.

This. "Hard" is a comparative term when it comes to WoW Heroics. The fact that you actually had to use some CC with some of the pulls (Stonecore with Millhouse Manastorm instantly comes to mind) hearkened back to days of Vanilla and BC, especially when compared to some of the WotLK chain pull without a care in the world instances.

[Oncereborn]

I didnt whine at all. lol your perception is very twisted.

I said I find it funny that he thinks they were THAT hard, when they werent. I played launch, I had an 85 in 6 days, I remember it all. They werent THAT hard and if it was to you then your a noob.

Sorry to say it.

All it required was good CC. Maybe I already had that because I was a decent mage, so I always CC'ed the healer and if someone else CC'ed another it was usually pretty doable without much grief.

It took me 7 days to not only reach 85, but to complete the glory achievement (complete every single achievement in heroic 5 mans). From my experience, I gotta say that it was sort of difficult on some boss's, some of the achievements were impossible without doing some kind of trick which would later be patched, but they nerfed it all anyway so that wouldn't matter. What I found most difficult was healing, being a healer myself trying to control my mana, especially after the changes they made to intel and spirit, I found it very difficult to have enough mana to last a fight. My group would use every cooldown known to man in order to complete a boss, otherwise we would just wipe.