Orgrimmar Storyline & Alliance Dissatisfaction.

[Jokubas]

A couple of these posts remind me of why there are strange factional issues that come off as lazy writing. It's because of the factions. It's because there are two factions, and from a gameplay standpoint, they are utterly strict. They always have to be in complete balance from a gameplay standpoint, because otherwise you'd be sabotaging half your player base. The writing has to contort and bend over backwards in order to justify why the gameplay is even, no matter how little it makes sense. The biggest example of this was in Cataclysm. All the ground the Horde made was justified from a gameplay perspective. In Classic, thanks to the story, the Horde didn't really have a lot, and it made it hard to give them an equally compelling and widespread questing experience. From a story perspective, however, it made absolutely no sense. Based on the history of the races, the Horde should be a significantly smaller faction in terms of population, let alone military. Even if they were even, however, it still makes the Alliance look totally incompetent for losing ground everywhere, yet not having any major victories themselves.

That same issue applies again to this expansion, perhaps even more than before. Somehow the Horde, (which, again, should be a smaller faction) even while divided by civil war, is enough to prevent the Alliance from having any kind of non-Pandaria-related success outside helping the Horde get back on their feet. If the Horde was depicted accurately, and the Alliance was properly at war with them, they would be wiped out overnight thanks to this. Of course, that can't happen because then half the player base would be kicked out of the game (not that I'd support that anyway as I like both factions, but it's true). Likewise, not only would it make sense for the Alliance to ask for some stuff in exchange, but if the Horde were truly good guys, they should offer up some things on their own in return for the help, but as I mentioned about Cataclysm, most of the ground gained needs to stay Horde for gameplay balance, so it can never actually be acknowledged in the story.

Then there's the whole blood elf/Dalaran thing. It seems like Blizzard wanted the Alliance to be excited about Dalaran, but it's obviously a nasty thing that was done. Sure, it shows a new depth to the Alliance, which was needed (though I argue not in this way, as I'll get to), but they chose to do it to the one character who previously had the totally opposite personality. They explained it well enough, but that doesn't make it something that's nice to see. As part of this whole faction problem, they keep having to juggle the villain ball between them, to give each faction a reason to hate the other while still being able to ultimately say that they're good. The problem is, neither one are supposed to be evil. The player base's weird blindness about the Warcraft name being easily applicable to warring with the actual bad guys like the Scourge, the Burning Legion, and the Twilight's Hammer, has led Blizzard to focus on awkward, out of place, and often out of character exchanges between the Alliance and Horde.

The Dalaran thing also led to the whole blood elf defection controversy. Blizzard's trying to pretend the blood elves dropped the diplomacy after Jaina's actions. No, the blood elves decided against switching to the Alliance (where they really belong, seriously, it made no sense in Burning Crusade and it makes no sense now, and it would have allowed the Horde to have Zul'jin as a hero), because they just can't switch all the blood elf players to a faction without all their friends. The Jaina thing was just a way for Blizzard to acknowledge that the blood elves fit better on the Alliance without actually having to do anything about it.

And that's why, for both gameplay and story reasons, I've been saying since before the game came out that I think the factions should be abolished (from a gameplay perspective). Of course in the story they'd still exist, but we'd be playing the adventurers, the heroes, the people either too good, too desperate, or simply too worldly to care about labels. PvP would still exist, as the factions would still exist, but it would be our choice to participate in their battles, not to mention that border skirmishes are going to be pretty much inevitable no matter how well the Alliance and Horde are getting along, considering their recent history. If they did this, the story would open up massively. The blood elves could switch sides without affecting the players, the Forsaken could strike out on their own and continue their quest to wipe out life, the night elves wouldn't have had to have been Flanderized into generic elves to fit into a faction so that they could be playable, and one of the factions could even suffer major defeats or victories, like losing Stormwind or Orgrimmar permanently. Of course the latter would be a bad idea to do overnight after such a change, but if the players weren't committed to the factions, you could actually develop them as dynamic entities with their own agendas and qualities. Garrosh taking over the Horde could actually have meant a return to the "Old Horde," which could have remained a major villain faction for years to come. You could actually have different nations. Kul Tiras could be a major kingdom that does not agree with the Alliance's acceptance of the Horde. You could have Garrosh's Horde that hates all non-orcs, while having a Thralls' Horde that's peaceful. Unlike right now, players of Horde races wouldn't have to feel like they're being painted as villains or as incompetent conquerors, as you would no longer have to pretend that race=faction.

[Darmalus]

I'm with Jokubas, WoW has convinced me that factions that divide the player base game mechanically are bad. I still play WoW because it got "grandfathered" in, but I won't touch any new games that do this.

I would, however, support race/faction specific quests if the majority of the game was otherwise neutral/universal. Plus, it would allow them to make more player factions instead of shoehorning everyone into Red and Blue.

But we would need a time machine to fix these problems. So just grin and bear it, we are stuck with two factions forever at war in perfect balance.

[bufferunderrun]

honestly i think that Alliance fans cry too much, you are going to raid orgrimmar and kill the warchief, garrosh's story was twisted and butchered just for the sake of giving you an enemy and the rebels are there just to give a role to the horde players otherwise this patch would have been alliance only, if something like that was granted to the horde this forum and the official one will have been drowed by the amount of tears.

[Nadiru]

honestly i think that Alliance fans cry too much, you are going to raid orgrimmar and kill the warchief, garrosh's story was twisted and butchered just for the sake of giving you an enemy and the rebels are there just to give a role to the horde players otherwise this patch would have been alliance only, if something like that was granted to the horde this forum and the official one will have been drowed by the amount of tears.

Garrosh's story was also butchered to prevent Horde players from feeling like the bad guy. Even as they took part in the shit Garrosh did, they can now step back and say "Well he was a sha-infused crazy orcish leader! Not my fault!"

[Deleted]

Garrosh's story was also butchered to prevent Horde players from feeling like the bad guy. Even as they took part in the shit Garrosh did, they can now step back and say "Well he was a sha-infused crazy orcish leader! Not my fault!"

in the same way every bad thing alliance do is never their fault because those responsible all "go rogue" beforehand leaving the image of the alliance whiter than white. hell jaina is the only real edgy villainous thing the alliance has done since Garithos, even Taurajo was the fault of "rogue elements" rather than the man who ordered it.

Horde never gets that luxury, we have been running the same plotline for years about the ideology of old horde vs thralls horde. Between old horde, burning blade, shadow council, dark horde, fel horde and true horde, I keep wondering how many times they can punt out the "orcs who follow the old ways" story in another form.

[Minikin]

"Snip"

How can you say my entire argument is based on one dude, when every argument is parried by a Garithos and get plagued! statement. That one dude is the warchief is he not? I dont know if you used to play warcraft during burning crusade and all, but when thrall was in charge he being warchief was the horde. The vision he brought was the horde. My argument is not based on what goblins do or what undead do or what orcs do. Its what this warchief's vision is for the horde. And his vision is flawed thus the horde that follows him is flawed.

Tell me, if Thrall raised an army vs Garrosh raising an army. Which one would be the horde? Neither the winner will dictate that. However if someone warps that question and asks. Well what is the true horde? The one that was formed on azeroth after the events of the undead plague. Well it will be fairly clear.

Garrosh Hellscream says: What have you done, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: Warchief! I... I was carrying out your command!
Garrosh Hellscream says: My command?
Garrosh Hellscream says: Was my command to murder innocents, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: Warchief... Sir... I...
Garrosh Hellscream says: Am I a murderer, Krom'gar?
Overlord Krom'gar says: No, Warchief!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Then I ask you again: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
Garrosh Hellscream says: I sent you to Stonetalon Mountains with an army. Your orders were to secure this land for the Horde.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Instead, you laid waste to the land. Murdered innocents, children even...
Garrosh Hellscream says: I spent a very long time in Northrend, Krom'gar. I learned much about the Horde at that time.
Garrosh Hellscream says: While there, a wise old war hero told me something that I would carry with me forever...
Garrosh Hellscream says: "Honor," Krom'gar, "No matter how dire the battle... Never forsake it."
Garrosh Hellscream says: Overlord Krom'gar, you have disgraced the Horde.
Garrosh Hellscream says: You have brought shame to us as a people.
Garrosh Hellscream says: By my right as Warchief, I here by relieve you of duty.
Garrosh Hellscream grabs Overlord Krom'gar.
Garrosh Hellscream says: YOU ARE DISMISSED.
Garrosh Hellscream throws Overlord Krom'gar off the ledge.
Garrosh Hellscream says: And you, <race>!
High Chieftain Cliffwalker says: Wait, Warchief! Please! <name> was the hero responsible for uncovering this corruption. He tried to stop Krom'gar!
High Chieftain Cliffwalker says: Have mercy, Warchief.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Mercy... Your wife and child were murdered. Your kin wiped out. Your home burned to the ground.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Mercy... Chieftain, on this day I learn from you.
Garrosh Hellscream says: <name>, Krom'gar's army is no more. Your rank no longer has meaning. If you wish to truly help the Horde, your considerable power could be used in Desolace or in Southern Barrens.
Garrosh Hellscream says: The choice is yours to make.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Let honor guide you, <name>. Do not forget that Hellscream's eyes are always upon you.

that was perfect.

Now hes gone and tried to use and old god's heart to kill of the alliance he so hates. While his horde falls apart under him.

This was never about who does what and how best to equal it. Its war, someone will always do shit that will make you go "OH THAT SLIMEY TWO FACED BASTARD". but thats what it is. Its more about the faction leaders. Yelling grathios, jaina, southshore, ashenvale! is not gonna make anything work, shit happens on both sides. I was questing as an undead and a worgen pops open and tells me to get lost 2 meters outside of brill. The nerve?! At the same time this apothecary wants me to test the plague on this mountain dwarf. Whos right? Whos wrong. dont matter. The story is focused elsewhere.

My argument could be mistaken as supporting one side or another. But no. I know this story is one told by blizzard. And they are projecting two leaders. Thats what the story is. And currently the story shows that the current warchief of the horde, is a tool. like it or not. And next patch hes going to get his face kicked in. Like it or not. Its been a long time coming in the Trail of the crusader in wrath of the lich king.

- - - Updated - - -

Alliance are little more than animals. Dwarves in cages being tested on are analogous to rats in a laboratory. Don’t want to be a test subject? Stop harassing the Forsaken.



I’ve been through both sides and what you say is false. The Alliance wanted to study the Bell; they made not a single mention of wanting to never use it against the Horde. That’s a plot device of your own construction. You may try to justify Jaina breaking neutrality by aiding the Alliance against the Horde, but that’s still breaking neutrality – the very thing she imprisoned and killed all Horde citizens of Dalaran for. Pot, meet kettle.



Congrats? While you’re busy thinking you’re quite something because Varian did well in a duel, we’re busy conquering your towns and killing your dudes.

1. Lol calling alliance nothing more than animals then with the same keystroke claiming garithos was bad.

2. Do the scenarios with andiun and the quests with jaina, you will see there. If you didnt spot em. Do em again. It happens multiple times.

3. Garrosh representive the rebels? Wha? What I wrote was simple enough, if it could be extrapolated into that, then we have other problems at hand.

in the end. The story blizzard wants to conclude with the alliance coming into grommash hold and take a nice long poo break. Stack up on the fabreeze.

[Aquamonkey]

I’ve been through both sides and what you say is false. The Alliance wanted to study the Bell; they made not a single mention of wanting to never use it against the Horde. That’s a plot device of your own construction. You may try to justify Jaina breaking neutrality by aiding the Alliance against the Horde, but that’s still breaking neutrality – the very thing she imprisoned and killed all Horde citizens of Dalaran for. Pot, meet kettle.

2. Do the scenarios with andiun and the quests with jaina, you will see there. If you didnt spot em. Do em again. It happens multiple times.

This is about the Sha energy, not specifically about the Bell:
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Your Highness, we should study it. Weaponize it! The Horde already outnumber us here on Pandaria. We need to gain every possible advantage.
Brann Bronzebeard says: It couldn't hurt to study it. 'Tho I don't much care for the way it's lookin' at me.
Tinkmaster Overspark says: Yes, yes! Very interesting! Perhaps I could distill it into a new power source?
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Garrosh is using every weapon he can lay his hands on. Shouldn't we level the playing field?
King Varian Wrynn says: What do you think, Anduin?
Anduin Wrynn says: Garrosh's example is not one that I care to follow. The Alliance should make its own decisions. The RIGHT decisions.
Anduin Wrynn says: It is true, it may be possible to someday harness the sha into a weapon. But we risk destroying our own people in the process. That is not a price I am willing to pay.
King Varian Wrynn says: Well said, my son.
King Varian Wrynn says: This power is too dangerous. I will have none of it!

[Minikin]

This is about the Sha energy, not specifically about the Bell:
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Your Highness, we should study it. Weaponize it! The Horde already outnumber us here on Pandaria. We need to gain every possible advantage.
Brann Bronzebeard says: It couldn't hurt to study it. 'Tho I don't much care for the way it's lookin' at me.
Tinkmaster Overspark says: Yes, yes! Very interesting! Perhaps I could distill it into a new power source?
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Garrosh is using every weapon he can lay his hands on. Shouldn't we level the playing field?
King Varian Wrynn says: What do you think, Anduin?
Anduin Wrynn says: Garrosh's example is not one that I care to follow. The Alliance should make its own decisions. The RIGHT decisions.
Anduin Wrynn says: It is true, it may be possible to someday harness the sha into a weapon. But we risk destroying our own people in the process. That is not a price I am willing to pay.
King Varian Wrynn says: Well said, my son.
King Varian Wrynn says: This power is too dangerous. I will have none of it!

not entirely it leads on further

http://wowpedia.org/Quest:Breath_of_...dow_(Alliance)


http://wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Bell_Speaks_(Horde)
Tak-Tak says: I got a bad feelin' about this.
Tak-Tak says: Your Warchief has got that bell, and he's goin' to use it to make the Horde stronger.
Tak-Tak says: But I think that bell has got some power... and it's bad.
Tak-Tak says: Nobody, not hozen, not human, not orc... should use the sha.
Tak-Tak says: Be careful.
Tak-Tak says: I hope I see you again, friend.

it is all related. Read what ishi says when consumed by the energy. Hell even consider. did those soldiers have a say before being converted?

the bell uses sha energy. creates doubts in foes, causes them to fear, makes u hate them kill them makes u made. and i guess turns you into a pretty little sha. http://wowpedia.org/Shenqing

[Talen]

Muradu wrote an elaborate post explaining why Alliance players should find their ultimate withdrawal from Orgrimmar as a decision that stays true to their established character.

Showing mercy and not taking advantage of the situation to crush, destroy and humiliate the Horde is within the Alliance character.
Gifting them every square foot of land they stole and overlooking the tens of thousands who died is not.

EJL

[Jediguy]

How can you say my entire argument is based on one dude, when every argument is parried by a Garithos and get plagued! statement. That one dude is the warchief is he not? I dont know if you used to play warcraft during burning crusade and all, but when thrall was in charge he being warchief was the horde. The vision he brought was the horde. My argument is not based on what goblins do or what undead do or what orcs do. Its what this warchief's vision is for the horde. And his vision is flawed thus the horde that follows him is flawed.

And there lies your error. A Warchief is no longer the leader of the “Horde” when the “Horde” are actively rebelling against him. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you: it makes no sense to claim someone represents a group of people who are actively rebelling against him. He is no Warchief of mine.

Tell me, if Thrall raised an army vs Garrosh raising an army. Which one would be the horde?

Tell me, if Anduin raised an army against Varian, which one would be Alliance? Suppose also that Varian had gone absolutely nuts and run contrary to everything you claim the Alliance stands for, to the point of trying to assassinate other Alliance leaders.

Well what is the true horde? The one that was formed on azeroth after the events of the undead plague. Well it will be fairly clear.

The one formed by Thrall, you mean? The person whose Horde-uniting ideologies Garrosh has departed from? Yeah, that one.

This was never about who does what and how best to equal it. Its war, someone will always do shit that will make you go "OH THAT SLIMEY TWO FACED BASTARD". but thats what it is.

Kinda like Theramore. Or Gilneas. Or Southshore.

My argument could be mistaken as supporting one side or another. But no. I know this story is one told by blizzard. And they are projecting two leaders. Thats what the story is. And currently the story shows that the current warchief of the horde, is a tool. like it or not. And next patch hes going to get his face kicked in. Like it or not. Its been a long time coming in the Trail of the crusader in wrath of the lich king.

Very few people have ever liked Garrosh and you’ll find what fans he did have fewer in number after his attempted assassination of Vol’jin and his treatment of non-orcs. You don’t like Garrosh? Great – neither does the Horde. Hence the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Lol calling alliance nothing more than animals then with the same keystroke claiming garithos was bad.

Don’t like your own medicine?

Do the scenarios with andiun and the quests with jaina, you will see there. If you didnt spot em. Do em again. It happens multiple times.

Actually, pretty much everyone except Varian is in favor of using the Divine Bell as a weapon. Anduin points out that it “may” be possible to harness it in the future as a weapon, but for now, it’s too dangerous because the Alliance knows so little about it. This isn’t a refusal to use the Bell out of some gesture of nobility, but out of fear of being unable to properly handle it. Upon further study, as the Alliance clearly desires, that fear will be remedied, and the only thing holding them back from using it as a weapon will be gone.

Garrosh representive the rebels? Wha? What I wrote was simple enough, if it could be extrapolated into that, then we have other problems at hand.

You claim Garrosh is our leader numerous times, yet we’re in open rebellion against him. How the flip do you suppose Garrosh leads & represents those who rebel against him? I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you. What I wrote was simple enough; if you can’t understand something so basic, then we have other problems at hand.

in the end. The story blizzard wants to conclude with the alliance coming into grommash hold and take a nice long poo break. Stack up on the fabreeze.

What was that? I can’t hear you over here in conquered Gilneas or in the new summer homes I have in blighted Southshore and nuked Theramore.

[Yarathir]

And there lies your error. A Warchief is no longer the leader of the “Horde” when the “Horde” are actively rebelling against him. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you: it makes no sense to claim someone represents a group of people who are actively rebelling against him. He is no Warchief of mine.



Tell me, if Anduin raised an army against Varian, which one would be Alliance? Suppose also that Varian had gone absolutely nuts and run contrary to everything you claim the Alliance stands for, to the point of trying to assassinate other Alliance leaders.



The one formed by Thrall, you mean? The person whose Horde-uniting ideologies Garrosh has departed from? Yeah, that one.



Kinda like Theramore. Or Gilneas. Or Southshore.



Very few people have ever liked Garrosh and you’ll find what fans he did have fewer in number after his attempted assassination of Vol’jin and his treatment of non-orcs. You don’t like Garrosh? Great – neither does the Horde. Hence the Siege of Orgrimmar.



Don’t like your own medicine?



Actually, pretty much everyone except Varian is in favor of using the Divine Bell as a weapon. Anduin points out that it “may” be possible to harness it in the future as a weapon, but for now, it’s too dangerous because the Alliance knows so little about it. This isn’t a refusal to use the Bell out of some gesture of nobility, but out of fear of being unable to properly handle it. Upon further study, as the Alliance clearly desires, that fear will be remedied, and the only thing holding them back from using it as a weapon will be gone.



You claim Garrosh is our leader numerous times, yet we’re in open rebellion against him. How the flip do you suppose Garrosh leads & represents those who rebel against him? I don’t know how to make it any clearer to you. What I wrote was simple enough; if you can’t understand something so basic, then we have other problems at hand.



What was that? I can’t hear you over here in conquered Gilneas or in the new summer homes I have in blighted Southshore and nuked Theramore.

Gilneas isn't conquered, it's just that Blizzard doesn't want to show Alliance victories or near-Alliance victories in game.



And yes, Sylvanas is slime. "IT'S WAR" is not an excuse for committing war crimes? Hah -- see what I did there? War-crimes? War-crimes? Why do you think those exist? Possibly because a war is not a good justification to commit those horrible crimes?



And you can say all you want about no longer being a part of Garrosh's Horde, but until Garrosh threatened Vol'jin and pissed off Sylvanas, everyone was fine with the way Garrosh was doing shit. They are no less guilty of the stuff happening between the Shattering and now, barring 5.3 and beyond. Don't try to pull the scapegoat card, because it doesn't work. I think the tauren were the only one who would try to rebel against Garrosh "out of the goodness of their hearts", possibly. The others? Not at all. The Horde wanted to ride the "Garrosh conquers!" train until it started biting them in the ass? Now they can pay for it by enduring the consequences.


And that would be in a normal world. Sadly, Blizzard seems to totally refuse showing consequences when it comes to the player Horde. Because they are the poor widdle victims. Poor forsaken blighting other people to goo, poor orcs coming through a portal to another planet trying to overrun and conquer it, poor trolls who were once part of an empire that conquered and subjugated the rest of Azeroth until they got their ass kicked by bugs and the like, poor goblins who would sell their mother for money. Oh, the poor Horde!

[Deleted]

OP, you say that the Alliance could have been the Russian army marching into Berlin but because we're honorable and stuff we won't.
But... couldn't we be the British/American/French army marching into Germany? Even they, while they didn't pillage and rape and stuff, they still asked for something after the war. What does the Alliance ask for? Nothing.

[Khadgar]

Russia was the one who first made a deal with the devil (Hitler), and so they paid the price in blood as a consequence.

Anyhow the Alliance are more closer represented by the Western Allies of WW2.

[Combatbutler]

OP, you say that the Alliance could have been the Russian army marching into Berlin but because we're honorable and stuff we won't.
But... couldn't we be the British/American/French army marching into Germany? Even they, while they didn't pillage and rape and stuff, they still asked for something after the war. What does the Alliance ask for? Nothing.

I actually had to laugh, they did those things but not on a Russian scale. The Main difference is Germany had no way to continue the war it was utterly broken and had to surrender unconditionally, the rebells still have strength left to fight, if necessary, which gives them the abillity to negotiate.

[Khadgar]

I actually had to laugh, they did those things but not on a Russian scale. The Main difference is Germany had no way to continue the war it was utterly broken and had to surrender unconditionally, the rebells still have strength left to fight, if necessary, which gives them the abillity to negotiate.

The rebel's against the full might of both a united Horde and Alliance, including Thrall + Jaina, doesn't seem like they could last very long and do much negotiating before facing total annihilation

[Larwood]

I think OP is overcomplicating it quite a bit. Most Alliance players don't want to be awesome horde-ass kicking avengers, we just want to DO SOMETHING. Any-fucking-thing.

Seriously, when have Alliance done anything that felt meaningful to storyline? The lowest point was when we took a back seat to Thrall in DS, but even before then one of the turning points of the war was Camp Taurajo, and what did Alliance players do there? Nothing, we turned up afterwards to beat up some looters? Big Deal. (I don't know if Horde had a similar experience of Taurajo, but the point is that's how everything is with Alliance.)

After DS what did we have? Theramore, where the Alliance player's role was to turn up and pick through the rubble. The only time we got to actually do something was Jaina's ethnic cleansing of Dalaran, and guess what, most Alliance players actually enjoyed that. What a surprise. Now we are back to playing second fiddle, helping the Horde clean up their own problems.

[Combatbutler]

The rebel's against the full might of both a united Horde and Alliance, including Thrall + Jaina, doesn't seem like they could last very long and do much negotiating before facing total annihilation

Thrall belongs to the rebells, so does every other horde race except the orcs, so yes after the siege is done they can still put up a fight and it would still take years to beat them, which is why negotitiations are in the best interest of all, instead of continuing this war. Durotar is one Nation, but the others are still able to fight. Hence there will be negotiations and no unconditional surrender.

[Larwood]

Thrall belongs to the rebells, so does every other horde race except the orcs, so yes after the siege is done they can still put up a fight and it would still take years to beat them, which is why negotitiations are in the best interest of all, instead of continuing this war. Durotar is one Nation, but the others are still able to fight. Hence there will be negotiations and no unconditional surrender.

I'm wondering why you think conditional surrender would mean the Alliance don't want anything for their trouble. It's called surrender for a reason. You mention negotiations, the Alliance would be pretty terrible negotiators if the result of that negotiation is just the Alliance saying "so yeah we'll just leave now, and... that's that."

[drake741]

Everyone realizes that returning to full balance between the factions, or crushing one entirely, would be the end of the Warcraft story. Slight imbalance creates conflict, and conflict pushes storylines forward. Even against a third party (LK, Legion, etc.) the imbalance is the 2 factions against the third.

It's ok to leave the Horde limping away, because that means we can fight them again later, or work with them against that which threatens all of us. It's the way of the World... Of Warcraft. >.>

[Jediguy]

Gilneas isn't conquered, it's just that Blizzard doesn't want to show Alliance victories or near-Alliance victories in game.

Isn’t conquered? Someone hasn’t done the Silverpine quest line… the Worgen surrendered to the Forsaken. Call that what you will.

And yes, Sylvanas is slime. "IT'S WAR" is not an excuse for committing war crimes? Hah -- see what I did there? War-crimes? War-crimes? Why do you think those exist? Possibly because a war is not a good justification to commit those horrible crimes?

Horrible crimes? According to what court? There’s no Geneva convention in WoW, bud. Don’t like the way the Forsaken fight? Stop screwing with them.

And you can say all you want about no longer being a part of Garrosh's Horde, but until Garrosh threatened Vol'jin and pissed off Sylvanas, everyone was fine with the way Garrosh was doing shit.

Killing Alliance trash is perfectly A-Okay in my book. In that respect, Garrosh gets 3 gold star stickers from me.

They are no less guilty of the stuff happening between the Shattering and now, barring 5.3 and beyond. Don't try to pull the scapegoat card, because it doesn't work. I think the tauren were the only one who would try to rebel against Garrosh "out of the goodness of their hearts", possibly. The others? Not at all. The Horde wanted to ride the "Garrosh conquers!" train until it started biting them in the ass? Now they can pay for it by enduring the consequences.

As long as Garrosh’s focus was on our enemies, why the hell wouldn’t we enjoy his onslaught?

And that would be in a normal world. Sadly, Blizzard seems to totally refuse showing consequences when it comes to the player Horde. Because they are the poor widdle victims. Poor forsaken blighting other people to goo, poor orcs coming through a portal to another planet trying to overrun and conquer it, poor trolls who were once part of an empire that conquered and subjugated the rest of Azeroth until they got their ass kicked by bugs and the like, poor goblins who would sell their mother for money. Oh, the poor Horde!

The Forsaken blight those who would torture and rack them (Scarlet Crusade) and those who would try to removed them from their own land (Alliance). You bring the blight upon yourself. The Orcs were deceived and subjugated by demons in the first war – something that would have never happened had your precious Dreanei never stepped foot on their planet and brought the Burning Legion there. The Goblins were fired on without provication by your Alliance. Apparently, Alliance are totally cool with attacking unarmed, civilian ships in order to cover up their dirty deeds of ambushing the world shaman on his way to save the world.

On the other hand, the Gnomes are busy eradiating their own cities, the Dwarves defile the earth in their incessant search for artifacts, humans are busy stabbing their allies in the back and driving them out of the Alliance while firing on civilian ships, the Night Elves’ arrogance is cursing Darkshore, and the Worgen are cowardly walling themselves away from the world when its need is most dire. The Draenei brought the Burning Legion to Outland, who then subjugated the orcs through deception and demon's blood. Looks like you have some nasty stains in your underpants, bro.