500% Threat generation is not enough!

[Mystile]

Not skill but knowing which abilities were worth using and which were not for tanking. and you could actually lose aggro if you didnt fight for it. Much more fun than the current system at least.

I play as a Guardian druid. Let me take what you said, but change it and make it make 100% sense.

"Tanking doesn't require skill, but knowing which abilities are good and which are not for certain situations is 'required'. You can actually lose out on extra dps if you don't use the right attacks. MUCH more fun than the old system." Notice the only real change of importance: I replaced aggro/threat with damage/dps. Seeing number is more exciting, that's why all tank abilities do damage; devastate was just a lot more fun than sunder, even though it's the same damn ability.

[Eranthe]

Active mitigation is dynamic in that you're reacting to a specific encounter (think timing SotR or Elusive Brew), the max TPS cycle is just a rotation.

the max tps rotation was just a cycle in shattered halls but that didn't mean it was easy or didn't require thought.

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I play as a Guardian druid. Let me take what you said, but change it and make it make 100% sense.

"Tanking doesn't require skill, but knowing which abilities are good and which are not for certain situations is 'required'. You can actually lose out on extra dps if you don't use the right attacks. MUCH more fun than the old system." Notice the only real change of importance: I replaced aggro/threat with damage/dps. Seeing number is more exciting, that's why all tank abilities do damage; devastate was just a lot more fun than sunder, even though it's the same damn ability.

It's not a question of whether it's more fun to see a number by using devastate. It does damage along with the sunder armor effect, thus increasing threat generation, which makes it the obvious choice. It has nothing to do with fun.

[Fluorescent0]

the max tps rotation was just a cycle in shattered halls but that didn't mean it was easy or didn't require thought.

How so? Instead of pressing abilities based on what the boss is doing you only press them. Tabbing isn't hard, it's just annoying.

[static28]

The only issues I've noticed are during tank swaps. And even then it's threat between the tanks (the previous tank may pull threat back off the just taunted tank).

If you're competent, you should be able to keep threat by knowing what to use and when.

*edit - I will say that prot warriors could use this change and a nice buff to their DPS wouldn't hurt.

[Tharkkun]

back then it took skill now its just a aoe holds aggro

You sure? Paladins just dropped consecration. Ferals had to tab target and put bleeds on every mob and I forget what warriors did but it wasn't pretty.
LK made it a little easier for all the tanks and then Cata made it harder all over again.

In Vanilla everyone waited 5-10 seconds or else you got demolished. That's not fun gameplay either. Eat a donut, drink your coffee, okay now dps.

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It didn't take skill, it took waiting for 5 sunders. It took dps sitting on their hands. It took a threat meter addon being a requirement to raid.

Or having a thunderfury tank because the proc alone allowed you to make a sandwich and hold threat.

[Ferocity]

With 500(540? 700?) percent threat modifier, they might as well just say that all mobs prefer to attack tanks and just run right to the tank and let him use active mitigation

You think dps in SoO gear won't be doing upto 500k dps? You think tanks will be doing steady 100k+ dps? With vengeance being nerfed in 5.4, and with bosses (as they are now) doing no real damage to tanks (outside their special nukes), it is not hard to foresee threat issues if there would be no changes.

Imo, better situation would be if Blizzard would just buff baseline damage of tanks by 40%, instead of threat. Too much depends on vengeance imo.

[Kotori125]

I would like there to be more choices in tanking, kind of like lich king and able to have block warriors as apposed to meat shields (most of a boss attack, if not all, especially with shield block up. Especially on adds.) Maybe that was just being different, as I also dpsed as arms most of the time, when everyone had to do fury. And still 'winning' the dps and (when I did) tanking.

Would people like it if tanks did 5k dps now and had to fight for threat, while attempting to deal with active mitigation, while picking up adds, while keeping threat on the boss that is now lost because they are picking up adds.

But I do miss the whole, if you do less damage/dps than the tank, you suck horribly. Too bad most tanks are generally top due to vengeance (cheesing especially).

[Koji2k11]

maybe its about time to make aggro tank spec only no matter who pulls the mobs or boss tank alwas gets the aggro without doing anything ! wouldn't that be awesome faceaggro ?

[Belloc]

back then it took skill now its just a aoe holds aggro

I've had DPS pull aggro at the start of the fight when they have all of their cooldowns stacked and I haven't gotten any vengeance yet. It happens. Generally it's only one or two classes and it can be somewhat crit dependent, but it does happen on occasion.

[Jinivus]

I remember when Blessing of Salvation was near mandatory in a raid. Now any backpedaling champion can run in (backwards) and keep aggro just fine.

One could argue that the +threat mechanic is the same thing as Salvation... just in reverse..

[nekobaka]

Everyone that says that active mitigation is much more of a fun mechanic than threat must not realize that's they're just different means to the same end. Blizzard wants you to need to use your abilities so your raid kills bosses. Whether that means keeping yourself alive (active mitigation) or keeping your raid alive (old style threat management) it still leads to tanks having to hit the right buttons at the right time.

Which system is better? That's a matter of opinion, pure and simple. I tend to like both and I wish threat and active mitigation could be balanced, and I think it's possible, but not likely that it will happen.

The difference with the active mitigation system is it is harder to point out a bad tank and bad tanks just shift the work to the healers which certainly is a perk to many bad tanks. A lot of players bitched about DK tanks being shitty tanks in Cata when it was really the player themselves who was shitty and just that a shitty pally tank at the time was far easier to heal than a shitty DK tank. Healers already have to deal with other players mistakes and having to directly pick up a poor tanks slack with the initial focus on them is a silly design and just further blurs the understanding of healers for non-healers. I played all three rolls as a DPS that would ride all the tanks asses on the threat meter while still controlling it to the tank who is getting my ass ridden and finding ways to improve my TPS including on pickup just as a DPS looks for ways to improve their DPS. The threat game was not boring until Blizzard made it boring in large part due to homogenization in WotLK and there was opportunities to focus more on DPS over TPS so it was not always a flat ramp TPS and sit there.

Though right in the end you still have to play correctly, the focus has just shifted.

Can't really have threat be meaningful now when half the dps specs have a way to drop threat and half don't.

Well thats how it has always been. A number of the threat reduction passives have also been removed. The imbalances between the threat drops and passives is what lead to the biggest issues with the threat system and Blizzards unwillingness to balance it due to "flavor" so instead they think just gutting it is more flavorful.

I've had DPS pull aggro at the start of the fight when they have all of their cooldowns stacked and I haven't gotten any vengeance yet. It happens. Generally it's only one or two classes and it can be somewhat crit dependent, but it does happen on occasion.

=D My warlock was still doing that from occasion as demo at the start of the expansion, although demos burst was nerfed. In Cata Major Domo was a bit scarey as I could pull aggro and actually was basically the case for most of Cata.

[moveth]

back then it took skill now its just a aoe holds aggro

I wasn't aware "Wait til sunders are applied and then wait another 20 seconds before you attack." was skill. You and I have a VERY different definition of the word "skill."

[Trakanonn]

reducing tank DPS is just going to mean less tanks

huge AOE DPS is what I actually enjoyed about my tank, oddly enough.. i liked being able to pull 20 mobs and manage to outdps the dps. If I played WoW still and my tank did crap for DPS I probably wouldnt even bother playing it.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see them decouple dps and threat, reintroducing threat modifiers on abilities. This would make tweaking threat so it was a mechanic again far easier. You could add the modifier to md and tricks to smooth the pull.

Sure it's a bit frustrating having to hold off as dps, but vengeance and threat aura have wrecked tanking imo, homogenisation between threat and AM would have been much easier with the old model reworked.

Saying that, I'm not sure how much core mechanic development actually goes on with WoW these days. Both core and class mechanics seem to be applied without the imagination available in the community.

[Eranthe]

How so? Instead of pressing abilities based on what the boss is doing you only press them. Tabbing isn't hard, it's just annoying.

You either did not do shattered halls or you don't remember it. It was brutally difficult on anything except a prot paladin and even then it wasn't easy. It was basically a gold challenge mode run every time you did the instance. In a world where revenge hits 1 target, thunder clap hits 4 targets, cleave hits 2 targets, it's easy to have a mob run over and one shot your healer. It was hard and unforgiving, and it was just as interesting as active mitigation.

Tank threat mattered on raid bosses as well. I had good tanks, but I still rode them as a hunter, even feigning death on cooldown. Our warriors had to use %-threat trinkets and ease up on dps or else risk pulling aggro. I'm not sure I want to go back to those days, but in the current game, threat is so pointless that it might as well not exist.

After the first 5 seconds of a boss, threat doesn't matter because tanks generate 10-20x or more tps than dpsers.

Like I said. They started out with a legitimate reason for tanks to need to hit their buttons (threat), removed it in wrath, decided tanking was boring, and implemented it again in a slightly different way (active mitigation). Different means to the same end and a lot of wasted development time (and they're STILL using dev time on this because it's unbalanced) that could have been spent in pvp balance or making sure arms warriors and hunters can actually get a raid spot.

[Galbrei]

back then it took skill now its just a aoe holds aggro

No, back then it took the dps to stop dps and sit on his hands while he wait for the tank to generate more aggro. Stop doing anything doesn't take skill, it's just plaing boring. In Vanilla it was so bad that tanks would get priority on Thunderfury because it was almost impossible for them to hold aggro over a dps with that weapon if they didn't have one themselves.

[Fluorescent0]

You either did not do shattered halls or you don't remember it. It was brutally difficult on anything except a prot paladin and even then it wasn't easy. It was basically a gold challenge mode run every time you did the instance. In a world where revenge hits 1 target, thunder clap hits 4 targets, cleave hits 2 targets, it's easy to have a mob run over and one shot your healer. It was hard and unforgiving, and it was just as interesting as active mitigation.

Tank threat mattered on raid bosses as well. I had good tanks, but I still rode them as a hunter, even feigning death on cooldown. Our warriors had to use %-threat trinkets and ease up on dps or else risk pulling aggro. I'm not sure I want to go back to those days, but in the current game, threat is so pointless that it might as well not exist.

After the first 5 seconds of a boss, threat doesn't matter because tanks generate 10-20x or more tps than dpsers.

Like I said. They started out with a legitimate reason for tanks to need to hit their buttons (threat), removed it in wrath, decided tanking was boring, and implemented it again in a slightly different way (active mitigation). Different means to the same end and a lot of wasted development time (and they're STILL using dev time on this because it's unbalanced) that could have been spent in pvp balance or making sure arms warriors and hunters can actually get a raid spot.

Wrong, it's not the same thing. You aren't limiting your group's performance in that they have to hold on waiting for you, you're limiting it in a more visible manner: by dying or requiring more healing than necessary. It shifts the responsibility for doing something wrong from two people (tank and dps, while it's actually the tank not doing enough threat) to the tank, who's actually getting it wrong.

[nekobaka]

No, back then it took the dps to stop dps and sit on his hands while he wait for the tank to generate more aggro. Stop doing anything doesn't take skill, it's just plaing boring. In Vanilla it was so bad that tanks would get priority on Thunderfury because it was almost impossible for them to hold aggro over a dps with that weapon if they didn't have one themselves.

The proc on thunderfury generated a lot of threat just by itself which is why the weapon continued to be viable in BC for tanks and needing a nerf. The threat boost thunderfury gave to the tank let even non-thunderfury wielding players push harder particuarly with other odd mechanics like ignite rolling that had even resulted in a mage pulling off a tank on patchwork. Weapons in general played a large roll in threat generation for tanks all the way into WotLK.

The developers have evolved fights over time to allow players to continue doing something while a tank picks up an add to reduce the twiddling of thumbs aspect. I must be a weird person not think of the wait for two sunders thing as boring, than again I am also the kind of person who likes the use of CC. I see it more of a lack of patience issue with players. If I jumped into a PuG with a lower geared tank I didnt QQ about having to reduce my DPS. I adjusted and rode their ass just as I did my guilds MT. If you have issues with that then it is hard for you and calling it boring is merely a misdirection.

[kaiadam]

500% threat was obviously not enough. Having 11 times more threat than the highest dps was holding me back so much, raiding will go so much smoother when I'm holding 15 times as much threat as the highest dps, duh.

[bals]

1) vengeance is being nerfed (but threat won't be an issue for someone as awesome as yourself)
2) i feel this change is more for tanks in 450-480 gear going into random dungeons (so they have no vengeance) with dps with 530+ gear