Are the first 2-3 bosses of SoO morchok levels of difficulty?

[Nobleshield]

Problem is aswell
Normal guilds with casual raiding that gonna likely progress steady and slowly like mine(10/13 hc atm) are not even bother with Ptr.

In term's the most/all posts i saw come from people with already experience on Ptr and if people look on eu/us forum's all the regular threads about each boss come with post from 13/13 hc player's that likely ...In Live gonna be with 550+ ilvl ...Legendary..

For example.
Last patch.
I recall a healer from Method on Horridon fight Ptr Thread/post was calling that in normal the healing was so easy and the fight was so ...easy..
Ending....Live.. Boss was overtuned for the most of the normal guild's..

So the biggest mystake always is that everything come's for likely people that have killed the boss even before the release. and it's easy.
Another thing is that all the post from normal/ptr come for people that from the second week who are already in heroic mode and never bother with ...normals..

The problem with that is Blizzard doesn't qualify the feedback they are given. E.g. if a healer from Method says a fight is easy, it's probably too hard for the majority of guilds. I think a big issue with some of the initial tuning of fights is that the feedback they get is from 13/13H raiders, who aren't indicative of anything median in the raiding community, so you end up with fights that are tuned appropriately for guilds with T15 on farm, and overtuned for most everyone else for a while.

[Deja Thoris]

The problem with that is Blizzard doesn't qualify the feedback they are given. E.g. if a healer from Method says a fight is easy, it's probably too hard for the majority of guilds. I think a big issue with some of the initial tuning of fights is that the feedback they get is from 13/13H raiders, who aren't indicative of anything median in the raiding community, so you end up with fights that are tuned appropriately for guilds with T15 on farm, and overtuned for most everyone else for a while.

Of course they do. They even mentioned a while back they accept that people that climb on the ptr are of a higher calibre than the "regular" playerbase and tune accordingly. While they may not always get it spot on (Horridon) they aren't stupid.

[unholyness]

I hope they do not the same mistake they did with hof and ToT

First boss easy, second and third boss a wall for most casual guilds..

The idea is to get better not just hope for bosses to be easier. If those bosses were in fact a wall for you and your guild then you should look at the people in your raid.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with that is Blizzard doesn't qualify the feedback they are given. E.g. if a healer from Method says a fight is easy, it's probably too hard for the majority of guilds. I think a big issue with some of the initial tuning of fights is that the feedback they get is from 13/13H raiders, who aren't indicative of anything median in the raiding community, so you end up with fights that are tuned appropriately for guilds with T15 on farm, and overtuned for most everyone else for a while.

In fact, GC tweeted months ago that he takes input from progression raiders more seriously than casual players. If a good player says a fight is easy then most likely it is easy. If people choose to stand in shit and be bad then it doesnt matter what they tune it to. Horridon is/was a joke so if you have problems on that fight then you arent a progression guild but in fact probably a social/casual guild thinking they are a progression guild. Of course Blizzard is going to listen to good players who follow mechanics over people who want things to be faceroll. FYI, this content has to last and from what we tested and offered advice on it was rather easy on normal with heroics decent. If you look at old blue PTR posts you can see where good players said the fights were easy and Blizzard responded that that tuning is still going on and will be adjusted which does sound look like they are tuning with input from good players which makes sense.

[Deleted]

I still believe that the community needs to be restricted instead of pulling another difficulty. In classic I was pissed at my raidgroup because after months of farming bwl and farming the first bosses of AQ till you required resi they never really wanted to progress further in AQ. But when naxx came out they finally pushed themselves and were big mouthing how we could easily own Naxx and skip AQ completely... It was a terrible what happened then in naxx and after a few weeks I left them. Same in TBC when they released SWP and people who farmed lurker/lootreaver +1-2 bosses finally could skip t5 for t6 only to fail there on the easy bosses...
I say they should just gate raidcontent again. People don't bother with old content by themselves and become lazy or LFR users. Content itself loses value and sheer quantity. All the groups who fail on the first bosses on normal and get depressed by it could instead nearly clear whole raids, gear up, play as team, get a feeling how it works and progress at own pace. There would be something they can do and when they kill the last boss - perfect you can now spent more and more time in the new raid or heroic.
The problems back then were guild hopping. But get real it never ceased to exist instead nowadays people just quit the game / change 25 into 10m and whatnot. It's never gotten better. AND LFR. I hate how they adjust the itemlevels. LFR has it's place and at the moment it's the very core like heroic 5mans back then. You could craft your gear with every addon and to quests / PVP but most always ended up doing 5mans for gearing up + some pieces of the other options. It's the same now only that every tier you do LFR instead of 5m. And then you have to it it over and over again or just decide you cleared the game before even thinking of raiding... But oh well. I guess the train has gone too far to even think of something like that. I am eager to see where the game goes

[Aerna]

For example.
Last patch.
I recall a healer from Method on Horridon fight Ptr Thread/post was calling that in normal the healing was so easy and the fight was so ...easy..
Ending....Live.. Boss was overtuned for the most of the normal guild's..

Horridon is probably the easiest fight in ToT for healers. There is nearly nothing to do except watching dps kill stuff or fail to kill stuff.

[Deleted]

Horridon is probably the easiest fight in ToT for healers. There is nearly nothing to do except watching dps kill stuff or fail to kill stuff.

Indeed...i done the fight with several alt's.
But the point is.
I did the fight in Ptr...On live i already knew what i'm gonna encounter .
As a mater problem was.
Several guilds in my server have break up after 2/3 weeks wiping. Some of the provided quite nice logs.

What i'm saying?

For example i remember the group having 1st 3 weeks people with gear of 480-485 ilvl.
Can you tell at the start not after the nerf's how can a mediocre class like example an unlucky warrior that is with 485 ilvl and 471 ilvl weapon can proceed on the requirement's dps?

Right now.. The one that test the fight's are already give up ....example 520 ilvl... Do you expect every people doing the raid by that time having the 520 ilvl?
I'm doing 10-man. (For me and my main i have 5 weeks since i haven't seen an item for my class.) I had 74 kills with my Hunter Lfr/normals until i saw an upgrade over my 471 ilvl. You know when ? 5.3 2 months after ...Lfr...)

So for casual with fresh recruitment you wont expect the new guild's having recruitment the people that can fulffil all thing's....Meta socket...or....Cloack...

So yes the healing was easy because the dpsrs as you know in that guild are the best.
Now scale down.

A guild like Method that they we're doing Horridon with an Average ilvl of 515 ilvl back then.
And a guild like..xXXXXXXx that they gonna do Horridon with an Average ilvl of 485 ilvl..
That's almost a 30 ilvl and somehow near a 2x tier diferrence.
So yes Normal raiders especially at the start gonna suck up and because of no farm in order to get upgrades like we saw...Downed....to death....

Because you/me and all people doing some heroic's.... have 545-550 ilvl you can't expect everyone else having the same gear.
There is a difference in 515 ilvl and someone in 485 ivl.
There is a difference somenone having 517 ilvl weapon /sha weapon....Stats... socket...bonus.... with someone having a 471 ilvl weapon...

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Normal modes aren't getting harder and harder.

t11 is still the BY FAR hardest normal mode tier released to date. Ulduar normals were also harder than both t14 and t15, which are very much compareable to ICC25 and Firelands and Dragon Soul (pre 20/35% nerfs).

If you feel they are getting harder, it's your raid members just don't caring anymore.

[Radio]

still they way way less "chaotic" then some fights in HoF/ToT thats waht i mean.

Nah, people tend to exaggerate the chaos in ToT normal, T11/12 (ESPECIALLY T11) fights exist in a very similar vein of complexity to ToT, people just don't remember how those fights played out in early Cata.

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed...i done the fight with several alt's.
But the point is.
I did the fight in Ptr...On live i already knew what i'm gonna encounter .
As a mater problem was.
Several guilds in my server have break up after 2/3 weeks wiping. Some of the provided quite nice logs.

What i'm saying?

For example i remember the group having 1st 3 weeks people with gear of 480-485 ilvl.
Can you tell at the start not after the nerf's how can a mediocre class like example an unlucky warrior that is with 485 ilvl and 471 ilvl weapon can proceed on the requirement's dps?

Right now.. The one that test the fight's are already give up ....example 520 ilvl... Do you expect every people doing the raid by that time having the 520 ilvl?
I'm doing 10-man. (For me and my main i have 5 weeks since i haven't seen an item for my class.) I had 74 kills with my Hunter Lfr/normals until i saw an upgrade over my 471 ilvl. You know when ? 5.3 2 months after ...Lfr...)

So for casual with fresh recruitment you wont expect the new guild's having recruitment the people that can fulffil all thing's....Meta socket...or....Cloack...

So yes the healing was easy because the dpsrs as you know in that guild are the best.
Now scale down.

A guild like Method that they we're doing Horridon with an Average ilvl of 515 ilvl back then.
And a guild like..xXXXXXXx that they gonna do Horridon with an Average ilvl of 485 ilvl..
That's almost a 30 ilvl and somehow near a 2x tier diferrence.
So yes Normal raiders especially at the start gonna suck up and because of no farm in order to get upgrades like we saw...Downed....to death....

Because you/me and all people doing some heroic's.... have 545-550 ilvl you can't expect everyone else having the same gear.
There is a difference in 515 ilvl and someone in 485 ivl.
There is a difference somenone having 517 ilvl weapon /sha weapon....Stats... socket...bonus.... with someone having a 471 ilvl weapon...

On the very first week of ToT our T14 4/16h guild with a fairly new core of people including 2 fresh 90s with an average raid ilvl of 490 killed Horridon normal in just over an hour of attempts. Horridon (even before the 20,000 nerfs he received) isn't even close to the hardest boss in ToT.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

im sorry but if u are saying normal modes didnt get more complicated mechanics in t14/15 then in t11/12 then u must be joking ><

Actually, your statement has got to be a joke. If you actually believe that t14 or t15 normal modes were even close to the difficulty of t11, nobody should take your opinion on the matter seriously, because you obviously didn't raid when t11 was current content. As for t12, it's pretty much the same difficulty (talking about pre20% nerf Firelands obviously).

[Nobleshield]

Actually, your question has got to be a joke, and if you actually believe that t14 or t15 normal modes were even close to the difficulty of t11, nobody should take your opinion on the matter seriously, because you obviously didn't raid when t11 was current content. As for t12, it's pretty much the same difficulty (talking about pre20% nerf Firelands obviously).

Not so sure... I did raid T11 when it was current (not in the guild I'm in now though), and I found T14/15 to be MUCH harder than T11 was. Now granted, I didn't do T11 on heroic (Got BoT down, BWD up to Nefarian, and T4W killed Conclave and never went back for Al'akir) but that's 10/12 on normal that I got, and I felt that T15 was much more challenging, and T14 was downright brutal with a killer (IMO) first boss. Halfus was tricky but not as nuts as Stone Guard was at launch.

[Radio]

Not so sure... I did raid T11 when it was current (not in the guild I'm in now though), and I found T14/15 to be MUCH harder than T11 was. Now granted, I didn't do T11 on heroic (Got BoT down, BWD up to Nefarian, and T4W killed Conclave and never went back for Al'akir) but that's 10/12 on normal that I got, and I felt that T15 was much more challenging, and T14 was downright brutal with a killer (IMO) first boss. Halfus was tricky but not as nuts as Stone Guard was at launch.

Nef and Alakir were the two hardest normals in that tier. XD

[Nobleshield]

Nef and Alakir were the two hardest normals in that tier. XD

I still have nightmares of Nefarian sometimes.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Then, maybe you should get back to the guild you were in back then, as they were obviously miles better than the one you are in now.

Halfus, even if not a hard boss, was way more punishing than Stone Guards. Al'Akir knockback, winds, and p3, an entire long retardcheck. Cho'Gall had a tighter Dps/Hps requirment than any normal mode boss in t14 and t15, and the Corruption mechanic was very punishing. Nef with the kiting of adds in p3 and dare I mention interrupts in p2. Ascendant Council has more mechanics to "remember" than any boss in t14 and t15. Chimaeron is basically Megaera, just on crack. Atramedes has gimmicky mechanics that WILL kill any1 that don't know what they are doing. The remaining bosses all have just as lethal/many mecanics as any "hard" t14/t15 boss.

[Senen]

T14 was downright brutal with a killer (IMO) first boss. Halfus was tricky but not as nuts as Stone Guard was at launch.

Stone Guard was a joke at launch.
Second week? Yeah, second week it was pretty hard, because you got to handle the hardest comp (purple+blue+red). But first week it was a very easy boss. The only thing you needed was one player (it helped a lot if it was a tank) that understood the fight weel enough to announce the tank swaps.

- - - Updated - - -

On the very first week of ToT our T14 4/16h guild with a fairly new core of people including 2 fresh 90s with an average raid ilvl of 490 killed Horridon normal in just over an hour of attempts. Horridon (even before the 20,000 nerfs he received) isn't even close to the hardest boss in ToT.

I wouldn't say that Horridon is the hardest boss of ToT but:
1) "My guild has done this" is not a good way to apprehend raid difficulty. There are always some guilds that find an encourter easier or harder that most of the others guilds.
For instance, my guild kept stuck on Horridon for a month and then killed every boss in less than a night of try, except for Lei Shen who required two nights. Also, we killed Garalon rather quickly but spent several nights on Mel'jarak, however the conclusion "Mel'jarak is easier than Garalon" is probably wrong.

2) Horridon being a fight with adds, with A LOT of adds, has a heavy "dps check" component. Even if the enrage timer is not tight at all, if you don't have enough dps, you won't be able to kill adds as fast as they come and you will die. It's the first boss of the raid with a dps requirement and actually almost the only boss with a dps requirement. If you've managed to kill Horridon, you should have very few dps issue in ToT.
So yeah, even if the boss is not that hard, it's normal that so many guilds blocked against it. Especially since many guilds started T15 without having cleared T14 and being very undergeared.

[Aerna]

Right now.. The one that test the fight's are already give up ....example 520 ilvl... Do you expect every people doing the raid by that time having the 520 ilvl?
I'm doing 10-man. (For me and my main i have 5 weeks since i haven't seen an item for my class.) I had 74 kills with my Hunter Lfr/normals until i saw an upgrade over my 471 ilvl. You know when ? 5.3 2 months after ...Lfr...)

So for casual with fresh recruitment you wont expect the new guild's having recruitment the people that can fulffil all thing's....Meta socket...or....Cloack...

So yes the healing was easy because the dpsrs as you know in that guild are the best.

Well healing is easy on Horridon because the fight rely nearly entirely on dpsrs. Either they do their job and you kill the boss or they don't and you don't kill it. If your dpsrs can't kill waves in time you can heal as much as you want you won't kill the boss anyway. Horridon was overtuned for a 2nd boss in normal mode but definitely not because of the healing requirements. The adds just had too much hp for the average ilvl and skill of normal players. The comment from that player on ptr was not surprising because with very good dpsrs in his raid he probably had nothing to do during most of the fight.

For the current ptr, from what i can see on wowprogress, most guild at 12/12 ToT normal mode progression are at ~520 - 530 ilvl. I would say that SoO normal mode should be mostly tuned to allow these guilds to progress there in the next few months so expecting these guilds to have at least 520 ilvl seems fine.

For flex on the other hand the expected audience will probably be lower than that (and a lot of flex bosses are overtuned on ptr, even for 520 ilvl) but flex drop 540 ilvl items so as long as these guilds are able to kill let's say the first 4 bosses, it should allow them to gear up decently for the following bosses.

What was wrong with ToT normal mode was that the 2nd and 3rd bosses were way too hard for people in T14 normal mode gear. And farming jin'rokh for x weeks isn't really useful. Horridon or Council would have been fine as the 5th or 6th boss, just not 2nd and 3rd.

[KaPe]

Stone Guard was a joke at launch.
Second week? Yeah, second week it was pretty hard, because you got to handle the hardest comp (purple+blue+red). But first week it was a very easy boss. The only thing you needed was one player (it helped a lot if it was a tank) that understood the fight weel enough to announce the tank swaps.

So, what about people who kept facing "hardest comp" - the one with all four dogs active - each and every week? Was the boss difficult or easy for them?

[Blade Wolf]

Can someone tell me the difficult of the later bosses in SoO compared to ToT. will we face a boss with Durumu like difficulty in the middle of the raid? Not that i found Durumu hard, on the contrary he's my favorite boss in ToT.

[Senen]

So, what about people who kept facing "hardest comp" - the one with all four dogs active - each and every week? Was the boss difficult or easy for them?

When I said "second week was pretty hard" I just meant difficulty skyrocket'd between week 1 and week 2 and that beginning with the week 2 comp may be a bit brutal. That being said, it wasn't that hard, but the chain mechanism change the fight a lot so the week without chain is absolute faceroll.
So, yeah, in 25 you didn't have this "easy week" without chain, so the first week the boss may have been way harder in 25-man than in 10-man. After that, I doubt the fight was really hard in 25-man either but I don't know, never played 25-man so I can't tell.

[Deleted]

So, what about people who kept facing "hardest comp" - the one with all four dogs active - each and every week? Was the boss difficult or easy for them?

That fight was never hard to begin with but I'll bite anyhow.

Those people had 3 tanks to trivialize it.

[Fluorescent0]

Nobleshield, just a quick question aimed at you.

If normals are past heroics (as you say it) and flex now covers the role of the normals you used to raid, why does it matter that you now raid flex? Is it because of the name? Because of the itemlevel? You're still seeing all content you saw before and at the level of difficulty you played before.