This is Thrall's Fault

[Irian]

What is the 'mind of a leader'? Do you mean that stuff about people saying that he has a 'weak core' and he does whatever his bedbuddies happen to tell him to do?

He put himself at odds with his allies and disregarded all of their advice, and essentially tore the multi-racial Horde apart. He was successful at conquest in large part for this reason: it was shown in lore that he was willing to throw the Forsaken like cannon fodder at the Alliance to try and capture Gilneas for the Horde, and this was his problem. He didn't care for anyone but the orcs and his mind was solely on orc conquest, not Horde conquest.

[Deleted]

This is true, but at the same time, even Vol'jin points out, loosely quoted: garrosh was an amazing warrior and an ally on the front lines, but he did not have the mind of a leader. Anyone could've and should've seen that, and Thrall just didn't. There were so many warnings, even from Garrosh himself, yet Thrall ignored them.

who would listen to what vol'jin has to say? horde saved his pathetic people. he was unable to reclaim his island for who knows how many years. he threatened his warchief and betrayed him. not exactly a spoke person for leadership minds. well, what can you expect from the lesser race.

and about multi cultures. taurens swore to go to hell for the horde. so what if Garrosh threw undead guys somewhere. aren't they like already dead? just animated to continue their rather completely meaningless undeady lives. Garrosh cared for the horde, just because he cared more for the orcs, it should not go bad in the heads of racial leaders. countries have no friendships, they have business. vol'jin, like a troll he is obviously don't grasp idea of beneficial expansion with the use of tactical bombs.

there is plenty of quotes saying that he was a great leader, tactician etc. but you say that he was a bad leader? I don't get it. maybe you mistake leadership for courtship.

[-Superman-]

Well, I mean let's be completely honest here; the only thing Garrosh did wrong was lose.

Thrall never committed 1/100th of the atrocities of Garrosh but had 100 times more respect as Warchief. Garrosh did not do it all for the Horde, he did it for himself. The biggest wrong doing in all of this was Garrosh being placed into power in the first place. Thrall should have just kept the power, and taken on Deathwing.

[Deleted]

Thrall never committed 1/100th of the atrocities of Garrosh but had 100 times more respect as Warchief. Garrosh did not do it all for the Horde, he did it for himself. The biggest wrong doing in all of this was Garrosh being placed into power in the first place. Thrall should have just kept the power, and taken on Deathwing.

atrocities? ohmahgnome. he got whatw as needed for the horde. so yes. he made them starving, living in slums and orcs did not like him actually. do you think he just stepped down? they were seeing rightfully Garrosh as the great conqueror from Northrend, a true orc, not some pansy idiot who binded orcs hunger to the will of alliance supplies. thrall would kill off horde, he would obliterate orcs with his horrible, atrocious management. this is an atrocitity you should focus on. not some alliance lesser races dying. they are the enemies.

there should be a questline. actually for both factions: maraad vs thrall. of course lorewise we know that thrall's rule costed orcs most probably thousands of lives, but still they are on the same mental level.
failed escort quest
vs
failed simorgrimmar

[-Superman-]

--- snipped ---

If you really believe all that garbage you just spouted, you're as bad as Garrosh. He did little more than commit major genocide, abuse his power, and ruined everything he touched. The Veil of Eternal Blossoms went from this



to this


Took Orgrimmar, a capital city where all Horde were welcome from this:


to this fortified defensive where even his own people wanted him dead:


He went from this honorable warrior in Nagrand:


to this dishonorable power hungry monstrosity in SoO:


Where was Thrall in TBC? Leading his people, with the respect of the Horde which HE helped build while seeking out his people on Draenor in Nagrand
Where was Thrall in Wrath? Leading his people, with the continued respect of the Horde while helping build an offensive against the scourge
Where was Thrall in Cata? Saving the Horde, and Azeroth from impending doom by Deathwing
Where was Thrall in MoP? He was meeting with Vol'Jin who was almost assassinated, and had to begin planning the removal of Garrosh.
Where is Thrall in WoD? Killing Garrosh in a one on one fight to the death, which he won without any effort at all.

So, where is Garrosh now?

Crushed by a large, earthen hand and fried like a crispy critter thanks to some heavy duty lighting. Brought down by the very Shaman who made the mistake of putting him in power in the first place.

People who praise Garrosh are either great fools, or evil themselves.

[Haven]

Poor writing. It's when characters do the things they do for the sake of drama and/or coolness, rather than doing things that would seem reasonable or at least consistent with the character.

Just keep in mind that Sylvanas wanted to poison Garrosh right away from the start of War Crimes to prevent all this farce. She's the only one with sanity in this superhero drama circus.

[Deleted]

If you really believe all that garbage you just spouted, you're as bad as Garrosh. He did little more than commit major genocide, abuse his power, and ruined everything he touched. The Veil of Eternal Blossoms went from this



Where was Thrall in TBC? Leading his people, with the respect of the Horde which HE helped build while seeking out his people on Draenor in Nagrand
Where was Thrall in Wrath? Leading his people, with the continued respect of the Horde while helping build an offensive against the scourge
Where was Thrall in Cata? Saving the Horde, and Azeroth from impending doom by Deathwing
Where was Thrall in MoP? He was meeting with Vol'Jin who was almost assassinated, and had to begin planning the removal of Garrosh.
Where is Thrall in WoD? Killing Garrosh in a one on one fight to the death, which he won without any effort at all.

So, where is Garrosh now?

Crushed by a large, earthen hand and fried like a crispy critter thanks to some heavy duty lighting. Brought down by the very Shaman who made the mistake of putting him in power in the first place.

People who praise Garrosh are either great fools, or evil themselves.

power of the emo dwells stromg in these words. I sense little tears.

so you show some vale after horde races betrayed him? ah, he was supposed to give up? right.
fortified defensive is something bad?????????????????????????????????????? o-ho. no, his people stayed with him.
Thrall during all these events was drowning horde in its piss. his leadership was not only poor but destructive. disbanded horde after 5.4 would fare much better than horde under thrall's 'guidance'. poverty, sickness, depression - this is thrall's horde. and don't wave in front of me these socialistic crimes. lwho are you to define or redefine honor of Garrosh. people who praise Garrosh are wise beyond superficious naivete you try to bring here.

so where is Garrosh now? dead, died in a duel where thrall cheated during mak'gora woohoo great hero of azeroth.

[Deleted]

Ultimately, everything that has happened under the tyranny of Garrosh Hellscream falls on the shoulders of Thrall. Even though he is considered a selfless hero, his decision to give the mantle of Warchief to Garrosh was a serious lack of judgement, discernment, wisdom, and (I believe) flawed moral character.

Besides the CLEAR signs that Garrosh wasn't ready for the responsibility (his attacking Varian at a diplomatic meeting in Dalaran, his behavior during the Trial of the Crusade, and his challenging Thrall after taunting his leadership ability), Thrall ignored critical advice and council from his most trusted friends. Vol'jin warned him, Cairne warned him, and Saurfang disagreed as well, yet Thrall was either too proud or too blind to recognize the serious mistake he was about to make. Even after he gave Garrosh the mantle, Voljin and Cairne expressed serious concerns, which Thrall ignored. Thrall should have corrected his mistake before he left for the Maelstrom.

So, why did Thrall ignore the friends he trusted and make a devastating decision like this? My answer would be Thrall's own selfish ambitions. One thing you learn very early on about Thrall is that he had a deep affection for his fallen friend, Grom Hellscream. What would bring Grom more honor than for his own son to lead the Horde that he died to save? I believe that it was Thrall's desire to honor Grom's memory that blinded him to the serious danger that Garrosh posed to the world.

Yes, it was Thrall's duty to leave Orgrimmar and save us from the Cataclysm, but of all of the options he had for a temporary Warchief, he chose the worst possible candidate. Voljin, Carine, Saurfang, Nazgrim, and Etrigg would have all been obviously better choices than Garrosh. But again, Thall was blinded by his emotional need to honor Grom's memory.

The genocide of Theramore, the destruction of the Vale, the death of Cairne, and for every other act of savagery that Garrosh has unleashed on Azeroth, the blame falls to Thrall.

In my opinion, he is a fallen hero who owes a serious debt to the people of the Horde, the Alliance, and of course the Pandaren.

As a Horde player, I firmly oppose any further influence that Thrall has in the Horde, especially in selecting a new Warchief.

Thrall has unwillingly become a villain this saga, even though he had good intentions.

Consider how many lives would have been saved and how much destruction could have been prevented, if Thrall hadn't failed so miserably despite the trustworthy advice of his friends.

Completely false. It's Garrosh's fault for being too dumb to learn from the past and act accordingly. At the time Thrall appointed Garrosh warchief he wasn't the same character he is now because Blizzard decided to pull a 180 and change his character drastically.

[Deleted]

Completely false. It's Garrosh's fault for being too dumb to learn from the past and act accordingly. At the time Thrall appointed Garrosh warchief he wasn't the same character he is now because Blizzard decided to pull a 180 and change his character drastically.

what exactly what dumb in garrosh behaviour? starting war to secure resources for the horde? the only 'dumb' I see are vol'jin and cairne. I will repeat it until the end of time: horrible writing made this stupid troll and cow to betray leader who got one of the alliance strategical point for them. bombing theramore was excellent. why would any race of the horde oppose Garrosh if he has provided them with profits? there is no sense in it. political alliances are not for the sake of

but this

[Deleted]

Yes, he done fucked it up. and that is why is he not the warchief

[Deleted]

what exactly what dumb in garrosh behaviour?

Starting a war he can never win against all the civilisations of Azeroth burning all bridges with allies. on a scale of 1 being Ned Stark and 10 being Little Finger he went super saiyan Ned Stark and achieved a minus 1.

[Deleted]

Starting a war he can never win against all the civilisations of Azeroth burning all bridges with allies. on a scale of 1 being Ned Stark and 10 being Little Finger he went super saiyan Ned Stark and achieved a minus 1.

what are you talking about? he has started war with the alliance - good-great move. he never ever burned bridges with allies. it was vol'jin and cairne who done it. you do not go and threat your warchief's life. in fact Garrosh should have killed him after that. there is no blame on Garrosh side for what happend. war all on fronts was a consequence of inside horde betrayal and nothing more. and there is not even a good reason for their betrayal

[Deleted]

what are you talking about? he has started war with the alliance - good-great move. he never ever burned bridges with allies. it was vol'jin and cairne who done it. you do not go and threat your warchief's life. in fact Garrosh should have killed him after that. there is no blame on Garrosh side for what happend. war all on fronts was a consequence of inside horde betrayal and nothing more. and there is not even a good reason for their betrayal

I'm talking about the part where he treated any race that wasn't Orc as second class citizens. It was a dumb move and caused most of the Horde to rebel against him.

[Deleted]

I'm talking about the part where he treated any race that wasn't Orc as second class citizens. It was a dumb move and caused most of the Horde to rebel against him.

???????????????????????? no such thing happend. he only made centre of Orgrimmar for the orcs and tauren for recognition of their strength. never forget that it was orcs who saved them all. without them even sylvanas would bend like a twig.
favouring someone, does not make others second class citizens, nor it made them receive less amount of rations or help or anything else. and all of that happend after cairne and vol'jin betrayal.

[-Superman-]

power of the emo dwells stromg in these words. I sense little tears.

so you show some vale after horde races betrayed him? ah, he was supposed to give up? right.
fortified defensive is something bad?????????????????????????????????????? o-ho. no, his people stayed with him.
Thrall during all these events was drowning horde in its piss. his leadership was not only poor but destructive. disbanded horde after 5.4 would fare much better than horde under thrall's 'guidance'. poverty, sickness, depression - this is thrall's horde. and don't wave in front of me these socialistic crimes. lwho are you to define or redefine honor of Garrosh. people who praise Garrosh are wise beyond superficious naivete you try to bring here.

so where is Garrosh now? dead, died in a duel where thrall cheated during mak'gora woohoo great hero of azeroth.

Your argument is weak, and your logic is non-existent. You've yet to show actual, cited evidence of how Thrall ruined the Horde, or how Garrosh was actually the savior. You can't... because Chris Metzen.

Garrosh was a scummy piece of shit with a Hitler complex. I feel bad for ANYONE who would pick such a person and hero-worship him. You might want to take a deep breath and realize you are not even making sense at this point, insulting people, and talking non-sense as you defend this piece of shit character. I would let Arthas run Orgrimmar before letting Garrosh in.

[Deleted]

Your argument is weak, and your logic is non-existent. You've yet to show actual, cited evidence of how Thrall ruined the Horde, or how Garrosh was actually the savior. You can't... because Chris Metzen.

Garrosh was a scummy piece of shit with a Hitler complex. I feel bad for ANYONE who would pick such a person and hero-worship him. You might want to take a deep breath and realize you are not even making sense at this point, insulting people, and talking non-sense as you defend this piece of shit character. I would let Arthas run Orgrimmar before letting Garrosh in.

how is it weak? my logic? MY FUCKING REASONING. before you ever use word 'logic', go and read an introduction to logic, logical culture, whatever. this internet 'logic this, logic that' is a vile bastardisation. And where are your citations? where? just read Berry, Anarch posts - they remember it better than me and use a proper english unlike me. do you think they just make things up? it is in the books, ones that I don't even have in my current apartment. and yes I would be able with books. in fact, do something good for lore's sake and read them, start with tides of war.

I agree with one thing what you have said: I enjoy replaying in lowbrow, vulgarity bordering manner.

uh oh huttler huttler. you speak like a true tumblrite. emotionality over pragmatism. how is it that I do not make sense?
it is mind boggling how can you expect citation from someone without providing anything. how, why, who told you it is even remotely acceptable.

[Mage of Rage]

Honestly I just want them to kill off Thrall or something already.

One of the blue posts talked about how much they loved Thrall in WC3, but I don't get it. I've been playing WC since the very beginning, so to me the real orc hero in WC3 is Grom. Grom represents everything about the Horde and Orcs, whereas Thrall represents nothing but a shoe-horned Gary-Stu pushing "mystic elemental powers" when any real orc fan wants bloodied axes.

Furthermore Garrosh's death was just an insult - it was a deus ex machina kill and it was utterly pathetic. Shame on Blizzard for wasting our time with Siege of Orgrimmar, and if things don't change it looks like Warlords will be an utter waste of an expansion.

[Deleted]

Honestly I just want them to kill off Thrall or something already.

One of the blue posts talked about how much they loved Thrall in WC3, but I don't get it. I've been playing WC since the very beginning, so to me the real orc hero in WC3 is Grom. Grom represents everything about the Horde and Orcs, whereas Thrall represents nothing but a shoe-horned Gary-Stu pushing "mystic elemental powers" when any real orc fan wants bloodied axes.

Furthermore Garrosh's death was just an insult - it was a deus ex machina kill and it was utterly pathetic. Shame on Blizzard for wasting our time with Siege of Orgrimmar, and if things don't change it looks like Warlords will be an utter waste of an expansion.

metzen and general idea of intellectualism is to be blamed too. pop culture with thiny, slimy, skinny anime heroes worked its way into warcraft heart with wimpy protagonists using power of 'intellect' (which in reality is just some sort of mutated intellectualism) over raw strength of muscles and axes. sometimes when I watch thrall I think that christy is trying to write a fable for his kids about captain draenor. I miss the bloothirsty horde smashing skulls of their enemies. now all we get are green pussies spreading defeatism and some subpar morality doctrines.

I prefer mighty witted orc warrior over second grade magic shmagic 'wise' hero

[Noomz]

He was the de facto leader of The Horde in Northrend, was The Horde not victorious?

It wasn't. He betrayed his allies even then, when the Horde attacked the Alliance fighting the Scourge IN THE BACK. The Scourge killed them all because of the Hordes treachery. Then there's Putress, the great and wonderful betrayal from the Forsaken that didnt happen once but twice even thrice if you count how Sylvanas didn't give a rats ass about orders.
Garrosh never had a single ounce of potential. Without Saurfang he wouldn've blindly started a war with the Alliance there and then in Northrend. Garrosh was a fool then and never showed any potential to be anything other than a fool.

[Frozenbeef]

Everything is Thralls fault, i'm sure in a couple of years time it will turn out that thrall time travelled into the past and created the old gods >.<