Alliance players have a right to be angry with MoP

[Deleted]

What?

Horde is now at its weakest form for a long time, and since alliance is in war with horde and has been in a cold war since beginning of the game lore, it would make sense for alliance to destroy horde once and for all.

[Eats Compost]

Who's the main villain? Former Alliance hero.

I wouldn't call that an Alliance story any more than I'd call Ner'zhul's story (post being Lich King-ified) a Horde story. You're also forgetting that the Forsaken are quite possibly more involved with Arthas' story than any other faction; Sylvanas' role in Wrath is more than enough to parallel the Alliance/Jaina's dealings with the Lich King.

Who's going to stop him? An Alliance hero.

Tirion has never been anything other than neutral in the game, and he has no more involvement with the Alliance than he does the Horde. This is in contrast to a character like Malfurion who, whilst being neutral, is active within the Darnassian faction. Same thing with Thrall and how he retained his relationship with the Horde. Tirion has no business with the Alliance that he doesn't also have with the Horde.

Who's leading the charge into Ulduar? The Alliance.

Unless I'm mistaken, it's the Kirin Tor for the most part, who are decidedly neutral at that point. There are some Explorer's League members along with Brann who are Alliance, though.

What's the most important moment for the Horde? Forsaken bombing the offensive at the Wrath Gate.

The Horde also had Saurfang the Younger running parallel to Bolvar's story, though. That was a pretty significant Horde story element. We also happened to get the Taunka and all of their story.

[Faroth]

Regarding heroes, the issue is restocking them. Horde gains New heroes, like Garrosh and Nazgrim. Alliance never gets new heroes, each expansion is a new set of no-names we never really get attached to.

And as soon as we get Gizmo and Socks, they take them away!!!

Who's the main villain? Former Alliance hero.
Who's going to stop him? An Alliance hero.
Who's leading the charge into Ulduar? The Alliance.
What's the most important moment for the Horde? Forsaken bombing the offensive at the Wrath Gate.

I don't consider Classic Naxxramas to be an Alliance story, SSC, TK, or ZA to be Horde raids, nor was Black Temple an Alliance raid. The boss of a raid or even end boss doesn't dictate the expansion as being thematically favored towards one side or the other's development story-wise.

Tirion is no more an Alliance hero than Rend Blackhand was a Horde hero. He's been neutral for half a decade before WoW even started. He was cast out and neutral during the events of Warcraft III. He's done nothing to paint him as an Alliance character; he offered quests and worked with both sides in Classic and was more neutral in Wrath, he just happens to be human. Do you agree Cataclysm was a "Horde expansion" because of Thrall's frequent presence?

I'll agree on Ulduar, though despite being an Alliance faction, I think Brann seems more neutral than an Alliance figure. He just cares about diggin' stuff up, no matter who helps him do it. Heheheh

Garrosh and Saurfang have some cool moments, the Wrath Gate did lead to the Forsaken ousting Varimathras and reclaiming their city, and both sides had equal representation developing in ToC grounds. The only defining moments of Wrath for either actual faction was Garrosh's reaction to the Broken Front and Varian's response to Saurfang in ICC.

[Deleted]

Forsaken is not its own faction, they belong to horde.

[Faroth]

You're also forgetting that the Forsaken are quite possibly more involved with Arthas' story than any other faction; Sylvanas' role in Wrath is more than enough to parallel the Alliance/Jaina's dealings with the Lich King.

I will throw my vote that Blizzard dropped the ball on having Sylvanas involved in the 5 man and not the raid, though.

[Tomana]

Civil war? Sure some internal conflict would be great. The Humans could then show they deal with insurrection and how they differ from the Horde because of it. Then people could start poking at flaws in Varian's ideals rather than him poking at others.

Can you explain to me what the Alliance's goal is then if it's not to defend itself and to end the conflict?

Getting peace can mean two things: either your opponent is still present but you make peace with it, or it has vanished. What I'm saying is that the first solution is not satisfactory to Alliance (well, humans and NEs mostly), because they will always find something as a pretext to wage war.

On the other hand, if Horde didn't even exist (or was wiped from existence), Alliance would scale into a full-blown civil war (see the corresponding lore in the Black Morass instance).

[Eats Compost]

I will throw my vote that Blizzard dropped the ball on having Sylvanas involved in the 5 man and not the raid, though.

Agreed. That's an extension of Blizzard's larger problem of involving lore characters in raids, though. See: Tirion Fordring showing up just at the start and for the last boss, then getting frozen in an ice block until the last minute.

[Deleted]

Cant bother to make new thread, and since you are discussing about alliance and horde i ask this here. Why are all alliance races cute looking while all horde races are ugly orcs and goblin etc?

[Scummer]

But there is a fine, thick line between "destroying Horde" and "demanding payback" or at least some kind of compensation, in the form of reclaiming lost land.

Oh yes there needs to be some sort of logical payback such as land that was once the Alliance's etc etc.

It's that which actually concerns me now. I'd happy to let the Horde have the story in 5.4 and get their conclusion to this story by ending their dictator and putting a new Warchief on the Thone. Which is what they are getting. So long as somewhere after 5.4 whether it be a novel or even 5.5 that we get a solid conclusion to the story from the Alliance PoV where they get their land returned and some sort of peace agreed.
This doesn't have to reflect in game because that's asking for far far too much imo, but I want it to be established in the story.

[Tomana]

Let me just ask, why doesnt alliance finish horde for once, while they are at their weakest because of civil war?

Because if there is no enemy to be found, they will find another one - among themselves. Alliance (well, humans mostly) is by nature destructive from that PoV. Hence, they need a scarecrow to unite against. This is actually a pretty accurate historical analogy.

[Eats Compost]

Forsaken is not its own faction, they belong to horde.

What is this in response to, exactly? People citing the Forsaken are doing so because they're a part of the Horde.

[Florena]

I will throw my vote that Blizzard dropped the ball on having Sylvanas involved in the 5 man and not the raid, though.

Yeah, sadly the Forsaken storyline, other than Sylvannas in ICC 5 mans, were suddenly dropped from the story after Wrathgate. After that it as all Garrosh and orcs on the horde side, with the Ebon Blade taking on the 'vengeful undead' role in Zul'drak, Icecrown and Mograine in the Shadowmourne quest.

[Scummer]

Getting peace can mean two things: either your opponent is still present but you make peace with it, or it has vanished. What I'm saying is that the first solution is not satisfactory to Alliance (well, humans and NEs mostly), because they will always find something as a pretext to wage war.

Except everything we've been told (in-game and by Metzen) so far indicates the former.

[Yarathir]

I will throw my vote that Blizzard dropped the ball on having Sylvanas involved in the 5 man and not the raid, though.

Wholeheartedly agreed. Same for Jaina, though. Should've both been present as a major, and involved force in Icecrown Citadel.

[Florena]

Let me just ask, why doesnt alliance finish horde for once, while they are at their weakest because of civil war?

Because genocide is bad and the Horde war machine is mostly dismantled at the end of SoO with a not crazy psycho leader to be put in place?

[Faroth]

Agreed. That's an extension of Blizzard's larger problem of involving lore characters in raids, though. See: Tirion Fordring showing up just at the start and for the last boss, then getting frozen in an ice block until the last minute.

Yeah, they need to work on finding more meaningful ways to involve them rather than just showing up. Like the Garrosh fight coming up, I thought it would have been cool if Varian and Vol'jin were there and attacked. I know players would accuse them of being weak, but I'd think the flavor of having Vol'jin firing arrows or throwing spears and Varian attacking just for the visual without doing added damage would be cool. After all, neither is a tank so they wouldn't have aggro.

But I also wanted to see Shandris/Tyrande fighting alongside Sentinels and Baine alongside braves on the upper levels of Orgrimmar while we fight bosses on the lower level and stuff like that.

- - - Updated - - -

Because genocide is bad and the Horde war machine is mostly dismantled at the end of SoO with a not crazy psycho leader to be put in place?

"Finish the Horde" doesn't necessarily translate to "slaughter them all" though.

There are other reasons not to outright demolish the Horde, of course.

[Deleted]

Jaina was not leading force in icecrown citadel, in fact didnt take part in fightning at all because she was in love with lich king.

[Yarathir]

Yeah, they need to work on finding more meaningful ways to involve them rather than just showing up. Like the Garrosh fight coming up, I thought it would have been cool if Varian and Vol'jin were there and attacked. I know players would accuse them of being weak, but I'd think the flavor of having Vol'jin firing arrows or throwing spears and Varian attacking just for the visual without doing added damage would be cool. After all, neither is a tank so they wouldn't have aggro.

But I also wanted to see Shandris/Tyrande fighting alongside Sentinels and Baine alongside braves on the upper levels of Orgrimmar while we fight bosses on the lower level and stuff like that.

Again. Agreed. It's really annoying to see them build up involvement, the way Sylvanas was very involved in the Lich King's death, and Jaina was very involved in his possible redemption, or putting him out of his misery if it was impossible. Again, with Garrosh. A lot of characters who should want to get the kill, who should hate him, and only Thrall shows up (so far) and that's annoying.


Shame to see them dropping the ball all the time on the character involvement.

[Eats Compost]

Getting peace can mean two things: either your opponent is still present but you make peace with it, or it has vanished. What I'm saying is that the first solution is not satisfactory to Alliance (well, humans and NEs mostly), because they will always find something as a pretext to wage war.

I have to disagree. There's been no real indication that the Alliance wants war with the Orcs for the sake of war with the Orcs. Even a guy like Admiral Proudmoore wanted war because he was convinced that they were a threat, not because he just hated Orcs.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas or Jaina were not even there when lich king died. There were only Bulvar and Tirion.