Button Bloat - Rogue Edition

[Verain]

I would like tricks to be a two charge ability and not on the GCD. It would also be nice if it was a 40 or 60 second cooldown instead of 30, and had a bigger effect than 15% for 6 seconds. This would really reward watching your allies and buffing them versus stomping it mostly on cooldown.

If you don't like this... well, sorry. I get that not every rogue likes it. I don't really get why they don't though- I think it's amazing fun to line up tricks on the burst cycles of my friends. They make macros that say some of their bigger cooldowns, and I would love to be able to float an off GCD tricks that had charges for this reason.

[isaaru]

TotT....tricking tank in a 5man/3man and and aoe pulling everything w/ smokebomb and as many aoe as you can and busting it all down w/o dieing is awesome. the act that it transfers any threat at all makes it a very useful and fun mechanic.

altough i loe verains idea

[ymirsson]

a) Giving up personal dps to make someone do more dps isn't fun. Especially not for rogue class, one of the most iconic old school pure dps classes. Period. You cannot go further than this from the archetype of rogue. That's why players most of the times prefer to swap tricks with another rogue.

This is wrong on so many levels, because rogue does no spell "selfish dickhead" or "lonesome mass murderer". You are a sneaking, thieving character, not a sociopathic paranoid with no personal bonds ever. And that is only the thematic side. From a mechanics point of view, rogues are not any more special then any other class.

[Deleted]

I have no problem with ToT staying, as long as they change it so:

a) it has no energy cost
b) off gcd - it already is
and/or
c) longer cooldown (2min+)
d) higher %dmg boost (maybe 30%)

This would make it a powerful single target damage buff for a few seconds, and since it would have a longer cooldown, it shouldn't be used randomly every time it comes off, but at times of need, like when you need to kill an add quickly or dps down the boss a certain %.

It's actually a unique ability, and I don't agree with people who claim it is "not rogue-like". There IS cooperation amongst thieves and assassins irl, it is not uncommon.

[Deleted]

You should probably check again.

I checked http://www.wowhead.com/spell=57934/tricks-of-the-trade

seems I am right. GCD=0

[Twix]

Please remove AR blizzard… hate energy capping so stupid

[Geckoo]

This is wrong on so many levels, because rogue does no spell "selfish dickhead" or "lonesome mass murderer". You are a sneaking, thieving character, not a sociopathic paranoid with no personal bonds ever.

Now, that is an exaggeration. Sacrificing self performance to increase someone else damage will never be thematically right in the archetype of a rogue. And that doesn't mean any of the things you said, it simply doesn't fit. The problem with tricks is more a problem of how they are presented.

The way tricks should work in order to make them a true rogue ability would be presenting them as a way to 'steal' damage from your buddies: you still increase their damage, just as they work now, but that extra damage? you do it, the game shows it as your damage not theirs. When you look at your logs there will be a new damaging source: tricks of the trade.

This creates a far more desirable gameplay with tricks: the rogue really wants to use them, it gives them damage, they need to look for the best target. That fits the theme of the archetype, that works fine from a mechanic point of view and you have a more interesting skill to use as a rogue.

[PetersenIII]

So apparently Blizz is going to remove ~20% of abilities in WoD to tone down ability bloat...which rogue abilities do you think should get this axe?

Stealth. =P

infracted: trolling

[Deleted]

The problem with Blizzard perceiving that there is button bloat for all classes, is that their solution will be (and has been in the past) to merge abilities together. Making core abilities passive.

Having Chimera shot passively apply a dot, hunters mark, concussive shot for example. It just makes the game skill-less, where your choice of what you spend your global on doesn't really make a difference.

Perhaps rogues have button bloat in PvE, in PvP there are only a couple of spells that aren't used.

Rogues are one of the last classes that have some amount of choice in their gameplay, e.g being able to line things up with expose armour for a swap, its rarely used, but what would removing it do?

I can see Blizzard removing abilities core to the rogue playstyle like 'shiv'. But I really hope they don't.

Its like if they remove hamstring for warriors (apparently they are) and making it passive with mortal strike, it'll literally ruin the class.

[intrinsc]

ToT has instances where it could be "fun" for the rogue, but most Rogues just stick it in a focus macro, set a focus, and press on cooldown. It's also a net dps loss for the rogue, which when trying to go for personal ranks on farm is NOT 'fun'. I think it should be removed and the potential trading of trix between rogues baked into the specs.

[Deleted]

Button bloat?
Really?

There might be some questionable abilities that could (doesn't mean it should) be merged or removed.
But I wouldn't really go as far and say that there are too many buttons or that they are bloated for Rogues.

As someone who's been PVPing and PVEing as a Rogue and only had Rogue as main throughout the entire game, I find that there are too few buttons and it's kind of dull to be honest.

People need to be aware that abilities that replaces abilities are not bloat. They share the same button count, but adds some visual and sound effects, lore and tool tip (for whatever good that does).
Prime example here is Envenom. Sure, it can be removed, but what will that do? The same Eviscerate visual and effects across all specs? I rather have those tiny things that actually separates them, without adding bloat or button count. (Same goes for Dispatch <-> Backstab, Hemo <-> Mutilate, etc.)

ToT is a boring ability, yet useful and serves as a net gain for the team or raid. Does boring mean it should be removed? In my opinion, no. It still has a purpose.
Removing it or merging it with something else will get you a free button, but will make an already dull class more slip streamed. Is that what people want and find 'fun to play'?

[Mac223]

I have no problem with ToT staying, as long as they change it so:
...
b) off gcd
...

It already is.

[Warstar]

I like the charge potential for preparation vs. the button. So many times I find myself having to prep for a single ability and "losing" the other's.

Recuperate: bake it in with SnD or something. It's such a bad heal that the cost of using it vs. a CC or damge is just not worth it.

Expose armor: bake it in with something else.

Really rogues don't have that much bloat compared to other classes. Been playing a hunter in pvp lately and holy crap waaaaaay too much stuff. In pve rogues buttons are all pretty minor compared to other classes as well.

Only things for the rotation I could think of would be stuff like taking out rupture for combat or CT for assassination type stuff. But even taking out rupture for combat there would still be some times you'd want to keep it on like dotting up a stealth class in pvp so they'd get unstealthed.

Oh and like others have said shadow walk is pretty stupid. Even only being on a stealth bar it's kind of a dumb ability. Unless it had something that made you immune to aoe damage breaking stealth or flare not popping you out of stealth it's pretty worthless. Or, if the glyph was baked into it that'd be helpful but other wise that glyph isn't worth it either.

[Deleted]

I like the charge potential for preparation vs. the button. So many times I find myself having to prep for a single ability and "losing" the other's.

Assuming we're talking PVP here, if you are forced to Prep only to restore 1 ability, you blew the CD at a wrong time then.
Funny is that if you put some pressure on Rogues who can't adapt properly, they will do this.
Meaning they will be utterly useless for quite a while all cds are on downtime and you effectively reduced his effectiveness and offensive potential to 0.

Regarding Shadow Walk, I can see that this serves little point in PVE (Raiding, there are some stuff you can use it for in Heroics/Dungeons, although limited), but it is quite effective at certain times (vs. Hunters, Druids, other Rogues, Metagame) in BGs, Arenas and RBGs. Boring? Maybe. Useless? Not in PVP atleast.

[isaaru]

I have no problem with ToT staying, as long as they change it so:

a) it has no energy cost
b) off gcd
and/or
c) longer cooldown (2min+)
d) higher %dmg boost (maybe 30%)

This would make it a powerful single target damage buff for a few seconds, and since it would have a longer cooldown, it shouldn't be used randomly every time it comes off, but at times of need, like when you need to kill an add quickly or dps down the boss a certain %.

It's actually a unique ability, and I don't agree with people who claim it is "not rogue-like". There IS cooperation amongst thieves and assassins irl, it is not uncommon.

stated perfectly---^

its a multi function in multi situations that iv wanted for years, some use to the grp other then cc and damage. makes me feel purposeful

[ymirsson]

Now, that is an exaggeration. Sacrificing self performance to increase someone else damage will never be thematically right in the archetype of a rogue.

Because working in a team is never beneficial to a rogue? Are we playing the same game? Before the question of whether a rogue prefers to do things alone or in a group comes the fact that one of the biggest assets of a successful rogue type character is flexibility. maybe my vision of a rogue simply differs from yours but i have no problem with TotT thematically.

The problem with tricks is more a problem of how they are presented.

The way tricks should work in order to make them a true rogue ability would be presenting them as a way to 'steal' damage from your buddies: you still increase their damage, just as they work now, but that extra damage? you do it, the game shows it as your damage not theirs. When you look at your logs there will be a new damaging source: tricks of the trade.

This creates a far more desirable gameplay with tricks: the rogue really wants to use them, it gives them damage, they need to look for the best target. That fits the theme of the archetype, that works fine from a mechanic point of view and you have a more interesting skill to use as a rogue.

And i'm almost (only almost) sorry but this is some kind of "fix" for the stupid who are to dense to grasp the concept of giving another player a buff and gaining benefits indirectly themselves. And i wouldn't know how to implement "TotT damage".
third, many a rogue would get caught in seeking for the biggest target to trick while letting SnD drop, stand in the fire and get facecleaved at every opportunity.

[Kael]

i have no problem with TotT thematically.

I don't have an issue with a rogue creating an opening for someone else. That said, "Tricks of the Trade" indicates that a rogue is doing something sneaky, which will likely trick the opponent into doing something foolish (attacking the wrong target) or exposing themselves to a dangerous attack. Making a disease hit harder by... doing what(?) makes no sense thematically either. Nor does it make sense for Tricks to be player-targeted rather than enemy-specific.

It could make sense for redirecting threat to cost energy, or creating an opening to do the same. The issue is, as it has been since the threat overhaul, that it's now almost exclusively about making someone else hit harder against whatever they want. I'm pretty sure a rogue 70y away from a great big beasty is not going to expose it more thoroughly to magical damage from 1 exact source that's striking it with the same ability as someone 1 foot to the left. Tricks makes sense as a debuff for the entire raid to benefit from (or even a cone, or type of damage), and as a threat redirect - in its current incarnation, it makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm not calling it useless. It's strong, but we're also presumably balanced around it, so that point is moot. It no longer feels appropriate to the rogue arsenal.

This really would fit better into "ability redesign" than button bloat, realistically. I don't see much bloat in rogues, from a PvE perspective, as I've mentioned before; we don't even have that many buttons for raid situations, and the ones we do have clear reasons to exist - even TotT, although I feel it's backwards. There are plenty of abilities I want to see changed, but that doesn't make them bloat (/cough SnD /cough).

[ymirsson]

Many nonspell abilities do have awkward implementations. A Fireball is always a Fireball, but how do you expose armor on a gelatinous blob? How do you feint against zombies? How do you disarm a gronn?

There are compromises to be made.

But yes, being enemy targeted instead of player would make the whole ability more "realistic".

[Mascotte]

Prep just has to go.
We all remember it resetting AR during TBC.
Combatmace prep builds galore.
Since then it has seen so many nerfs it hardly serves a purpose nowadays, or at least can be replaced with something new/better.

Slice is already becoming base if i recall correctly from blizzcon?
So thats a button out of rotations at least and that could open up more room for other abilities.

[Geckoo]

Because working in a team is never beneficial to a rogue? Are we playing the same game? Before the question of whether a rogue prefers to do things alone or in a group comes the fact that one of the biggest assets of a successful rogue type character is flexibility. maybe my vision of a rogue simply differs from yours but i have no problem with TotT thematically.

Well, it makes no sense to continue this since we now know what they are going to do, but anyway.

Why do you asume that not liking how tricks work in any way is not wanting to be part of the team?
when a warrior pops his skull banner he is working for the team, but he also loves that banner, he loves that extra crit.

Tricks is a WotLK ability, they also had this for mages:
Focus Magic - Increases the target's chance to critically hit with all spells by 3%. When the target critically hits the caster's chance to critically hit with spells is increased by 3% for 10 sec.
And this for warlocks with Cataclysm:
Dark Intent - i can't find the exact tooltip, but you know... increase target's periodic spell damage and healing, and the warlock gains haste.

There can be teamplay that also benefits the player directly, and is by far more interesting and fun than simply sacrificing your own performance and trying to convince yourself that it works fine just because is for the team.

And i'm almost (only almost) sorry but this is some kind of "fix" for the stupid who are to dense to grasp the concept of giving another player a buff and gaining benefits indirectly themselves. And i wouldn't know how to implement "TotT damage".

First, is not your job to implement "TotT damage", but if my tricks or treat addon can tell me how much damage my tricks gave, i'm sure that wow can do it.
Second, anything that gives a direct benefit to the rogue when using tricks works. why? because is not fun the other way. Telling a damage dealer to do less damage with no direct benefit from doing (like... survive, save CD's for bigger damage) it is not fun.

With my proposal, and is just one idea, and i know is a lazy one, no that it matter anymore , you give the rogue the direct benefit: they want to use them, is good for them. And you also keep the interest in using them in the best possible target, just as we do today, at least in progress.

third, many a rogue would get caught in seeking for the biggest target to trick while letting SnD drop, stand in the fire and get facecleaved at every opportunity.

Yes, bad rogues would screw up. so what?