To be honset I'd be very pissed if Alliance got High Elves

[ILoveLoreALot]

/facepalm

WC2 and WC3, in WC3 xpack TFT the Blood Elves (What the High Elves under Kael'thas called themselves) ran from execution by Lord Garithos, but not all High Elves joined Blood Elves or severed ties with Alliance. Up until TBC Theramore was the place to go if you were a High Elf, in fact from a lore perspective there should be more Elves in Theramore (before it blew up) than there are in Silvermoon.

As to the thread's original topic, High Elves always should have been an Alliance playable race, same with Blood Elves, Garithos was one bad egg and he was even being mind controlled by a Dreadlord to boot. Technically though the High Elves are currently an Alliance race, but not a playable race. The Elves just south of the Ghostlands in Northern section of Eastern Plaguelands strongly dislike the Blood Elves because of them coming back in TBC and kicking them out of everywhere that had been their home since Silvermoon's fall because the High Elves that remained refused to feed off demonic magic to take the edge off their addiction. The Silver Covenant is a faction of High Elves with loyalty pledged to the Alliance and have been around since WotLK. In Theramore, while not as wide spread as they should have been, there were handfuls of High Elves wandering about. Also I find it funny that pandas playing both sides is fine with you, but off shoots of the Highbourne led by Dath'remar Sunstrider is crossing some sort of line.

Garithos wasn't being mind-controlled by anything.

Anyways, while Blood Elves have been a favored race of mine since WC3, I never really did quite get the whole 'joining the Horde' thing.

I mean, back in TBC, I thought it was cool and never gave it a second thought, but it really doesn't make sense. They had a bad run-in with a single human, how was that worse than the Orcs attacking them during the first war, destroying parts of their forest and killing them?

I guess it's to be played out as a "desperation" thing. The Blood Elves were incredibly few in number, especially after Keal'thalas and another chunk of their people left through the dark portal. They joined the Horde to maintain safety and security in their crumbling state, more than anything else (at least, at first)

[Jessicka]

We can't know for sure, but I believe more would gravitate towards High Elves than people care to admit. That isn't an argument for by the way, in giving people what they want. If players really want to play that race, they can play Blood Elves.

Of course it's an argument for them. High Elves have been, and continue in this very expansion to play a very important role for the Alliance; far more important in terms of screentime than Worgen, Draenei and Gnomes have had this expansion and during Wrath, and yet we can't play them? It's nonsense. We can't just play a Blood Elf, because as a Blood Elf we can't tie our character into that role for the Alliance that's been presented in game.

Even so, I don't think there's any merit in arguing that everyone will race change, because firstly they won't, and secondly, why is it a problem to let those who do want to, do so?

There's an argument there, but it's all subjective. Population keeps being quoted in this matter because it was the in universe reason Blizzard gave us all those years ago. They haven't come back and retracted it since so we've only that official word to go. It MIGHT be that it doesn't matter any more, but it might also be your inference of race populations is off. As has been mentioned, the Worgen can spread their curse and were seen to do so in the Silverpine Forest Quests. The Gilnean population might be small, but the Human population who can become Worgen is still substantial.

It's unlikely there'll be many willing volunteers to take on the curse, the chances of surviving with full mental faculties remain low.

As for the Draenei, anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand may have stowed away on that ship when it jumped. Granted I accept their population levels on Azeroth are likely relatively low, however they did hook up with Draenei who remained in Outland.

Whatever way you slice it, we can only INFER that Worgen and Draenei populations are relatively low whereas Blizzard has definitely come out and say that High Elf population levels are too low to sustain a viable player race.

It's just not an argument that holds water anymore. You play a survivor from the Exodar, not an Outland hook-up. As a Worgen you play the survivor of a siege, who survived a natural disaster, who survived a curse, who survived an invasion... If you're a DK of either of those races, then chances are you're about the only one of those races who was raised. Nothing subjective about it.

Each faction in the game is greater than the sum of it's parts. Each race you can play fulfills a niche for that faction, a way of playing. Want a tech race on the Alliance? You have the Gnomes. Want a short race on the Horde? You play Goblins. Want a nature orientated race for the Horde? You play Tauren. Want a bestial race for the Horde? You, again, play Tauren. What a nature orientated for the Alliance? You play Night Elf. Want an Elven race in the Alliance? You play Night Elf.
Want an Elven race in the Horde? You play Blood Elves.

High Elves literally bring nothing new to the table. The niche of the magical race in the Alliance is occupied by the Draenei and the Gnomes. The niche of the Elven race is filled quite nicely by the Night Elves, who with their distrust of arcane magic are actually a better way of illustrating philosophical differences with the Blood Elves than the High Elves. After all, the original split between Blood Elf and High Elf was over how to sate the addiction to magic, with the Blood Elves coming to the conclusion even ingesting fel magic was acceptable. The restoration of the Sunwell rendered that question moot, and the division between the two is not one of race, not one even of philosophy, but one of political allegiance.

Gnomes are more a tech race than a Magic race. Draenei are the 'conscience', the Priests, Paladins, Shaman. The closest we have to a Magic race is Humans, who magical history is firmly interwoven with High Elves.

And yet they would still need to expend the effort setting them up.

Which is fine, you'd need to do that with any new race. Is your worry that they'll actually get a chance to reappear later on as well though, since they do already? Unlike the affore mentioned newer races?

No they wouldn't, as I said earlier the only point of contention left between the Blood Elves and High Elves is their political allegiance. And the High Elves are still bitter about being exiled. The Night Elves with their different philosophy, and who also share an ancestry and history with the Blood Elves, are a far more effective race to draw out any divisions between the factions because the Night Elves actually espouse a different way of doing things.

And yet it was the Silver Covenant's undoubted influence that ensured the Sunreavers expelled from Dalaran. Without them, it would have been impossible for Jaina to expel them, and Lor'themar's overtures might have borne fruit. The influence of that political division is unquestionable.

[Talen]

As has been pointed out, the Worgen can spread the curse to other willing Humans.

Or unwilling....however, Gilneas? They fought the Scourge, had a Civil War, got caught by the Worgen assault, had the Worgen plague, got invaded by the Forsaken and left the country.

I have no doubt there are plenty of Gilneans alive. But I suspect many of them are now Feral Worgen.

False equivalence. The Blood Elves and Night Elves are separate races, whereas the High Elves and the Blood Elves are the same race with a political division.

Which overlooks that the HElfs are essentially seen in game and by the players as a separate race. We don't call the High Elfs Blood Elves after all, or vice versa. We give and allow each their own racial identity.

Huge similarities because of game history, yes. But its still there.

Potentially. But Elves are always very popular in MMOs and a substantial High Elf population would inevitably emerge.

It already has. You aren't worried about a shift to Elves. You are concerned that a lot of BElf will simply upsticks and leave the Horde, or that new players will join the Alliance because of the fantasy trope.

OTOH, the Horde now has several pretty races that players can play and that will continue to be the case. Further, players are unlikely to swap faction simply because they can now have the same model as Alliance players. We've had some express that desire....and its because they prefer the Alliance. They just like the BElf model so much, they went Horde.

Or to put it another way - if the Alliance got HElfs...would YOU switch factions?

Divisions are most interesting when the competing factions not only have compelling narratives but have a chance of realising them. The High Elves are the remnant of a remnant. You've mentioned low Draenei population numbers, something I am willing to accept is plausible (however we don't know how many Draenei were recovered once the Dark Portal opened).

Very few...or did you miss the entire ethnic cleansing of Draenor. The Orcs were very thorough.

However the reason population keeps cropping up, despite various posters saying 'what about the tauren?' or 'what about the Gnomes?' is that many years ago there WAS a blue response on the High Elves I wish I could dig up, but I do remember.
The blue poster said the in game reason the High Elves weren't being added was due to their exceptionally low population.

That was an excuse. Not a reason. In case you didn't notice, population numbers didn't stop them adding the Tauren or Trolls or Draenei or other race. Why should it therefore uniquely apply to High Elves? Look at the current Pandaren....do you really think Ji and Aysa took hundreds off the isle? Tens is more like it.

The out of universe reason they weren't added was that a decision was taken to add Blood Elves to the Horde. The reason being they wanted to add the Elf race in somewhere, and the Horde (which was under-populated at the time) had a niche for a pretty elf race to draw people in.

And that won't change. They'll have the Pandaren, the Blood Elves and whatever Alliance they would get in compensation...which would allow Alliance players who like that race but want to go Horde to do so.

What niche would the High Elves fill in the Alliance? None. The Elf race is covered by the Night Elves. The Magical race is covered by the Draenei and to a lesser extent, the Gnomes.

The same niche as the Ogres....the last WC Horde race not yet playable. As it is, the factiosn have most, if not all, angles covered. Both sides have big races, small races, comic races, magic races, tech races, and so on. The only major need is for a star faring race for the Horde - a big reasons so suggest Ethereals for them, to counter the Draenei.

Other than that...why need a niche?

For all the complaints about a lack of Alliance story focus this expansion, you are promoting adding a race whose sole in game role now seems to be to act as a foil to the player Blood Elf faction. The High Elves and Vereesa are a story device to be deployed whenever Blizzard wants to give the Alliance involvement in a Blood Elf story. If the Blood Elves aren't involved, then it's the Kirin Tor and Dalaran and Jaina Proudmoore.

It is story progression and development for an Alliance race, and Alliance member. It just isn't for a PLAYABLE Member. This is the same objection people had in LK.

And being blunt - the Alliance doesn't seem to need nor want more involvemnt in a Horde storyline and the the presence of Vereesa's High Elfs is totally unnecessary. The Alliance wants involvement in its own stories - and that would include the HElfs story IF they were a player race.

They are a purely REACTIONARY force. They can't drive any conflict with the Blood Elves because their conflict with the Blood Elves has been resolved and they lost it. All they can do story-wise is sit in exile dependent on the charity of Stormwind and Dalaran and smoulder.

[

Resolution is such a strong word.

What if Alleria returns, brings with thousands of HElfs from Draenor and then settles in the "Greenwodd" area next to Silvermoon. Would she then have a story to be told?

As it is, Goblins show that a races story can be seen as essentially complete - not finished, but complete - by Level 20. ANd if poor writing was an excuse, we'd never have the Worgen or Draenei or Gnomes or ....

Blizzard attempting to re-package an existing race for the other side will provoke a backlash substantially greater than the one the Pandaren endured.

Potentially. They mighty also get praise for giving players what they want, for shaking up the game by emphasising that no action is unthinkable and decide that with having two factions having access to the same story, with different twists, justifies a greater focus on that story and hence greater involvement from BElf/HElf players.

In short, Blizzard won't get a backlash from simply including the HElfs. What they get will depend on how the entire package is received, and how High Elfs are presented.

Answer me this. Why should Blizzard make the most popular race of the Horde faction available to Alliance players, simply because those Alliance players don't want to play Horde.

Because HElfs already ARE members of the Alliance.
Because HElfs already have a history with the Alliance
Because the Alliance isn't complete without them.

Same reasons apply to Ogres.

And I'm here to argue against that first step ever being taken.

The first step was taken with the inclusion of the Pandaren as neutrals.
The second with the decision to involve the HElfs so throughly in the MoP storyline.

What you want is to argue against them taking the final step of making them a player race after shattering the silhouette system and seeding them as a notable and active race in the game....and the anniversaries next year make the perfect time for them to do so (So when they aren't announced in Sept, you can likely rest safe)

And out of all your arguments - the only one with value still remains the Judgement call on how it will affect Blood Elf players and their sense of their own uniqueness.

So - what do we know right now?

Next year is the 10th anniversary of WoW
Its the 20th anniversary of WC.
The Ogres and HElfs are the only Horde/Alliance factions not yet represented in the game
The HElfs have had a strong representation in the story in MoP. A very visible presence.
Alleria is likely returning next year so they'll have story then as well.

In short, about the only argument against the idea that they'll complete the factions next year as part of their anniversary celebrations is they haven't really done the same for the Ogres.

Overall, I'd say the chances are HElfs won't be playable. But I don't think the chances are as low as you seem to want.

Yes...they'll be seen as rehashed. Blizzard can either ignore that or give the Horde a rehased race as well. Highborne would fit without major tweaking to the story, but Blizzard can develop a story justifying most races.

Yes, there's a big chance they'll affect how BElfs see the uniqueness of their faction. That's a judgement call as to how deep and widespreads that attitude will be. We as players don't have the knowledge that will let us judge that.

We can't know for sure, but I believe more would gravitate towards High Elves than people care to admit.

Possibly. And most would be Alliance, Horde players having other ties to their faction..

That isn't an argument for by the way, in giving people what they want. If players really want to play that race, they can play Blood Elves.

Many do.

There's an argument there, but it's all subjective. Population keeps being quoted in this matter because it was the in universe reason Blizzard gave us all those years ago

And it's false. It's one they've ignored before and since.

Want an Elven race in the Horde? You play Blood Elves.

If thats the niche BElfs fill, then there's nothing to stop Blizzard expanding it to two races on each side. After all, there doens't need to be just one answer.

Want a magical Alliance race? Human. Night Elfs. Gnomes. Darenei.
Want a Tech race? Worgen. Draenei. Gnomes. Dwarves.
Want a nature race? Night Elves.

See? "Niches" aren't a 1 race solution.

Want to play an Elvish race? Night Elves. High/Blood Elves.

And yet they would still need to expend the effort setting them up.

Depends purely on how much effort they wnat to put it. Drop them in Stormwind with a few questgivers now and again to tie them into the various BElf stories they can take part in.

Problems solved and all that was needed was a few NPCs.

Or you could go the whole hog and give them the Greenwood area or Crystalsong as a full fledged HElf starter zone.

No they wouldn't, as I said earlier the only point of contention left between the Blood Elves and High Elves is their political allegiance.

Which CAN be enough. It often is.

EJL

[Lupinemancer]

Call it what you want I 'm just sharring my opinion as a horde player here. I truly would get pissed if Alliance were to get High Elves as a playable race at some point in the game. Despite it somehow fitting the lore I find it very very annoying for 2 factions to share a race model (pandaren do not count for obvious reasons).
Also if I am not mistaken, according to the lore, the elves that actually remained high elves and still side with the Alliance are very very few are they not?
Don't know guys it would just really grind my gears to see that happening....
What's your opinion on the matter?
(no flaming cause of opinions please)

You do realize that the Darkspear trolls are even fewer in number then the High Elves right? So basically there is no logical, nor lore reason for them to not become playable.

[Deleted]

do Labour and Conservative voters look like different species to you despite political difference?

hahahahha sometimes

[Combatbutler]

Resolution is such a strong word.

What if Alleria returns, brings with thousands of HElfs from Draenor and then settles in the "Greenwodd" area next to Silvermoon. Would she then have a story to be told?

Thousands of high elves on Draenor? That seems grossly exaggerated, considering how few elves accompanied the sons of Lothar through the Dark Portal.

[Deleted]

there is no logical, nor lore reason for them to not become playable.

Joe McAverage has been playing on-and-off since Vanilla

He's not big on lore, but he played during TBC cos he thought Draenei looked cool, he was indifferent about Blood Elves

People like Joe McAverage constitute for the majority of the playerbase, where all they really care about is gameplay, aesthetics and sometimes socialising, Blizzard needs people like Joe McAverage to keep the game alive

He quit for a while like anyone, then re-subbed during Cataclysm because he thought Worgen looked cool

He was about to re-sub during Expac 5, but to his startling realisation, he saw something! Blood Elves playable for the Alliance? Well thats boring, maybe Blizzard are running out of ideas, maybe the games gotten stale, he would think to himself

"The Horde got Ogres! Why did my favourite faction just get a cut+paste?!" he thought, now he's left with 3 options

1: He plays Expac 5 begrudgingly as the Alliance, unsatisfied that his faction got a Horde race from 2006
2: He plays Expac 5 begrudgingly as the Horde, he just doesnt like or care much for the Horde side of gameplay
3: He doesnt play

And that is why High Elves wont be playable, it'd be boring, dissapointing, and a weak incentive to re-sub for 6.0 for a vast majority of Alliance players, whilst a minority would be delighted with their CTRL+V race

and even lore wise: theyre not even a sub-race like Broken Draenei or Eredar, or Forest Trolls and Ice Trolls, or Leper Gnomes, or Taunka, theyre exactly the same apart from eyes and affiliation

Even as of MoP and the Lor'themar era, there is virtually no difference culturally or personality wise, theyre pretty much just High Elves with green eyes.

Reason 2 High Elves wont be playable in the future: Because theyre 99% playable now

[Obelisk Kai]

Joe McAverage has been playing on-and-off since Vanilla

He's not big on lore, but he played during TBC cos he thought Draenei looked cool, he was indifferent about Blood Elves

People like Joe McAverage constitute for the majority of the playerbase, where all they really care about is gameplay, aesthetics and sometimes socialising, Blizzard needs people like Joe McAverage to keep the game alive

He quit for a while like anyone, then re-subbed during Cataclysm because he thought Worgen looked cool

He was about to re-sub during Expac 5, but to his startling realisation, he saw something! Blood Elves playable for the Alliance? Well thats boring, maybe Blizzard are running out of ideas, maybe the games gotten stale, he would think to himself

"The Horde got Ogres! Why did my favourite faction just get a cut+paste?!" he thought, now he's left with 3 options

1: He plays Expac 5 begrudgingly as the Alliance, unsatisfied that his faction got a Horde race from 2006
2: He plays Expac 5 begrudgingly as the Horde, he just doesnt like or care much for the Horde side of gameplay
3: He doesnt play

And that is why High Elves wont be playable, it'd be boring, dissapointing, and a weak incentive to re-sub for 6.0 for a vast majority of Alliance players, whilst a minority would be delighted with their CTRL+V race

Pretty effective summing up of ONE, but by no means all, of the big reasons why High Elves should not be playable. Although High Elf supporters will come back and say that the Horde wouldn't get Ogres. Oh no. We'd get our own copy+paste race from the Alliance to balance things out, no matter how little sense it makes for any faction of the six major Alliance races to join the Horde.
The fact that there is no desire among the Horde for any of these races is irrelevant, we'd have to have one so that they can have Blood Elves on their side too.

[Deleted]

Pretty effective summing up of ONE, but by no means all, of the big reasons why High Elves should not be playable. Although High Elf supporters will come back and say that the Horde wouldn't get Ogres. Oh no. We'd get our own copy+paste race from the Alliance to balance things out, no matter how little sense it makes for any faction of the six major Alliance races to join the Horde.
The fact that there is no desire among the Horde for any of these races is irrelevant, we'd have to have one so that they can have Blood Elves on their side too.

Or the fact is, a strong majority of players would much prefer new races or just new models or a new neutral race or a new class for both sides, not a cut+paste job hyped up as the "big new race"

As much as I love the enthusiasm of the High Elf fanbase and that unnatural passion for the future of the game, it perplexes me as these are the same people who complain about being the Alliance shoved out the spotlight for 2 expacs straight, but would gobble up Horde leftovers from 2006

(and to all the people saying "YOURE JUST AFRAID OF PEOPLE LEAVING THE HORDE", trust me I wouldnt mind if the elf fanbase left the Horde, no offense to any cool Belf players out there but half the Horde is now just Elves with the tendency to be played by rude or despondent players, the whole "Horde is more mature" thing in Vanilla wasnt a myth)

[Feril]

Well, to everyone who would be pissed if they added them:

Suck it up and be pissed.

We've been pissed that they added our elves (and not-so-dead humans) to the Horde since almost forever, so no sympathy there.

When I read things like this, sometimes I really hope they give ogres to the Alliance, so that all those "elves are mine now" Hordes can never have all their classic races and a bit from the rest to boot.

[Deleted]

Well, to everyone who would be pissed if they added them:

Suck it up and be pissed.

We've been pissed that they added our elves (and not-so-dead humans) to the Horde since almost forever, so no sympathy there.

When I read things like this, sometimes I really hope they give ogres to the Alliance, so that all those "elves are mine now" Hordes can never have all their classic races and a bit from the rest to boot.

Didnt you get replacement elves called Nelves?
+ I dont think any Horde players are actually being possessive over Belves, were just saying as players of WoW, faction regardless, we dont want one of the big race slots being occupied by a race we got in 2006

Nobodys going "URRRGH I DONT WANT THE ALLIANCE TO HAVE HIGH ELVES BECAUSE THEYRE MINE",

Infact back in TBC, all the whiney traditional horde players HATED having pretty belves in their faction

[Northem]

Nobodys going "URRRGH I DONT WANT THE ALLIANCE TO HAVE HIGH ELVES BECAUSE THEYRE MINE"

Do you believe? Because I believe that is exactly what is going on: the Horde is too jealous

Infact back in TBC, all the whiney traditional horde players HATED having pretty belves in their faction

It seems that things have changed, you just need to look at the current populations to see how the vast majority of the Horde are gay elves...

[ItachiZaku]

Call it what you want I 'm just sharring my opinion as a horde player here. I truly would get pissed if Alliance were to get High Elves as a playable race at some point in the game. Despite it somehow fitting the lore I find it very very annoying for 2 factions to share a race model (pandaren do not count for obvious reasons).
Also if I am not mistaken, according to the lore, the elves that actually remained high elves and still side with the Alliance are very very few are they not?
Don't know guys it would just really grind my gears to see that happening....
What's your opinion on the matter?
(no flaming cause of opinions please)

I wouldn't be mad, probably annoyed. There are already 2 elf races in the game, that's 1 too many. Why not add other troll tribe as well.

[Combatbutler]

I wouldn't be mad, probably annoyed. There are already 2 elf races in the game, that's 1 too many. Why not add other troll tribe as well.

That is the same actually, since elves are of trollish descent.

[DJKalteraphine]

High Elves need to be a "sub race" of humans, since the High Elves that remain for the Alliance live in human society and are part of the Stormwind and Kirin Tor factions.

*crosses fingers for sub races*

[Ashadelo]

Only thing with Orge's is that how many people would really play an Orge as their main? I would assume that they might be less popular than the goblins.

[Obelisk Kai]

It seems that things have changed, you just need to look at the current populations to see how the vast majority of the Horde are gay elves...

Northem I am now convinced that a major factor driving you is some degree of homophobia and I am not willing to tolerate that. This is the second time in as many days you've used perceived sexuality as a negative. You're contemptible.

[DJKalteraphine]

Only thing with Orge's is that how many people would really play an Orge as their main? I would assume that they might be less popular than the goblins.

Ogres are my favorite race. Sadly, I tend to stay Alliance for my main since most my friends are there and RP is better, but at the very least, my Ogre would be a very well-loved alt. (Or if they surprised everyone and made them Alliance, fat chance, def my new main.)

[enchanted]

High elves are just blood elfs with different eye color. No biggie honestly so I dont care

[Deleted]

I would definitely be pissed if Alliance got High Elves.

Given how much of a horrendous joke the Night Elves have become with their WC3-to-WoW conversion+transplantation, diverting stream of effort -that might as well be used to finally repair this failure of a fantasy race- to the process of making slightly recoloured Blood Elves playable would have been a disappointing waste.

High Elves are but a speck of dust against the numbers of Blood Elves who -in turn- also are a speck of dust when compared to most of in-game and in-lore races - using them as anything more than NPCs would leave a sizeable shitmark on the proportions that account for some of immersion factors.