Richard A. Knaak doesn't write Lore, he writes an interpretation of game lore, so much of his early Warcraft writing has been invalidated already. So to quote a book as the lore of the game is to not understand that the Lore of the game is not tied to the books, unless the game designers like it. Otherwise the Warcraft RPG book, and all of Knaaks early books would still be valid lore sources, they are not.
Already in Pandaria it has been more than clearly hinted that Some of the Demi-Gods and ancients are "keepers" which are of Titan design. The Flying Serpents are specifically Titan Creations, which means the 4 Celestials which are Panderan Ancients/Demi-Gods are in fact Titan Creations, and Guardians of the Land.
4 Celestials
-Chi Ji the Red Crane
-Niuzao the Black Ox
-Xuen the White Tiger
-Yu'lon the Jade Serpent
proof they are of Titan Origin, Elegon. Also the dialog through out the August Celestial Rep grind makes it certain they are of Titan origin.
Since the " spirits and demigods, creatures eternal" are the same sort of thing as the 4 Celestials, it would lead me to believe they are similar. As such a great many of them can easily be of Titan origin.
They look like humanoid insects. That's it. The female qiraji look no more like female night elves than they do like female humans or female draenei.
Yes. Yes they were. Sources in WoW itself have stated that, in fact. "The trolls remembered when the travelers first came." I'd like to see one source you can present that definitively states that the Titans 1) created the trolls or 2) that they were indeed around before the trolls were.Trolls were not around before the Titans, that is a misunderstanding of what is said.
And again, ALL lore has said that the titans FOUND Azeroth. There is absolutely no reason to believe the titans themselves "made" Azeroth.Azeroth was made by the Titans, however when the Titans finally settled on Azeroth they found that corruption had settled Azeroth. ie the Old Gods.
That's not clear at all. We've no evidence that Orcs, Draenei, Trolls, and, subsequently, Blood Elves and Night elves, were created by titans. Pandaren and Tauren would, at most, have been indirectly created by ancients who were created by the titans. It has been stated that the Aqir were around before the titans as well.We have no idea what the time scale if and have very few bits of dialog in game. What is clear ALL player races are descended from Titan Creations. Which means Trolls do not Predate Titans, and if there is a link to Qiraji and Night Elves, it is possible that the Qiraji are a corruption of Night Elves. After all 2k years ago when the AQ first attacked, that land was Night Elf Territory, and the bugs over ran several night elf communities. ie the Twins might be former Night Elves.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? It's easier to make a generic humanoid celestial model than it is to make a generic "pet" celestial model. And hey, if the Titans "made" azeroth, than theoretically the pets would have been transformed too, because they would have been made by themMajor clues that the Titans made all player Races:
Elegon- Touch of the Titans- Contact with the Energy Vortex transforms the target into celestial form, increasing all damage done by 50% and healing done by 50%. Pets get the bonus but are not transformed.
A catch-all term to refer to the players as a whole.Paragons of the Klaxxi - "Come, children of the Titans, you face the Paragons."
You've no evidence that those show that the titans "created" those creatures. They're literally just pretty statues.this picture is a big clue.
From Ulduar in an area showing various creations of the Titans.
And moreover, the Titans didn't create the night elves. In fact, the Night elves weren't even around when the titans left no matter how you slice it. So something must have added those sculptures later.
“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
Words to live by.
In game book of lore.
Basically the implication is Life was brought to Azeroth by the Titans, then they left and came back at a more recent time, when they found the Old Gods and Elemental Lords, quickly the Titans did their best to reorder the world. And then left.Originally Posted by Mythology of the Titans
The implication is all life is either of Titan or Old God Origin. Since the Old Gods favored Insects and Flesh Beasts, and the Titans favored Humanoid forms it would be safe to assume anything humanoid is actually Titan origin. Anything Insectiod is Old God.
So this means the Humanoid insects of AQ are probably perverted Night Elves.
It also means that Trolls, in their most primitive form are probably made to be living residents and caretakers of the planet based on a Titan design. This would be when the Planet was first seeded with life, prior to when the old gods came to Azeroth, and prior to when the Titans settled on Azeroth. Since from the language use in various Raids, it seems that the old gods are not native to Azeroth.
Everything released by Blizzard is canon except the RPG books. Things are canon until they are retconned. You can't dismiss an entire novel just because you don't like Knaak.
Constellation versions of things in Titan facilities doesn't mean jack shit. The Blizz devs admitted that there is no lore behind that stuff. They just put it in because they looked cool.
The extent of them being involved with the Titans only goes so far as the constructs that exist in the Titan facilities. There's a celestial elf in Ulduar; elves arose after the Titans left.Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2014-02-08 at 04:44 AM.
You've literally proved nothing with that. The "single all powerful entity" they're describing would be the de facto omnipotent "God" of the warcraft universe, not the titans. Note the singular "entity."
Everything in that in-game book states that the titans went around touching up worlds they found or happened across. Not that they "created them out of nothingness."
"Bring stability to the various worlds"- Note the the there. As in, worlds that already existed. Not "their" various worlds. The various worlds existed out in space. The titans went around to them.
"They shaped the worlds-" again, note the the. As in, they found a world, they dropped down, they terraformed it as they saw fit.
"Brought order to a hundred million worlds scattered throughout the great dark beyond-" Again, these worlds already existed. They were "ordering" them. There's absolutely no reason to believe Azeroth is some exception to that.
You'd have done yourself better by quoting Algalon's "I have seen entire planetary systems born and raised in the time it takes your mortal hearts to beat once," because that at least implies that the Titans have the ability to create planets. But even that says nothing about Azeroth itself.
Last edited by Kaleredar; 2014-02-08 at 04:46 AM.
“Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
Words to live by.
Suffice it to say Elune is vastly more powerful than any other being in the known Warcraft universe.
The best measure of her power that we have is that:
1. Elune raised a simple raven to a level of a demigoddess by creating Aviana.
2. Aviana's body was pierced by demons during the War of the Ancients. ANY demon that came into contact with her blood were immediately PURIFIED of all demonic taint.
So the simple blood of a creature raised by Elune was more powerful than Sargeras' influence and power. It freaking purified demons. Nothing else could do that. Just imagine if Elune EVER directly intervened. I imagine it would be something like Broxigar attacking Sargeras, except Sargeras is in Broxigar's role and Elune is in Sargeras' role in terms of relative power. Sargeras couldn't but scratch her maybe.
Elune is way way WAY beyond a simple old god or loa. No old god or loa could purify demons.
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What bothers me about Titan lore is that any race of beings powerful enough to wipe a planet and reshape everything would find it vastly easier to just destroy the planet and rebuild it from scratch. Therefore, the excuse that removing the Old Gods would "kill the host" makes no sense. They could pull various lifeforms off the planet for a moment, destroy Azeroth utterly, and then rebuild it sans Old Gods and put the lifeforms back.
Its like Blizzard is trying to get me to believe that Titans are stuck in some evolutionary sweet spot where they can completely terraform a planet but cannot destroy and rebuild a planet. It just doesn't make sense. Even IF they were in that sweet spot at one time, they would not stay there. They would quickly advance to the point where they could build planets, solar systems, dyson spheres, etc.
Last edited by Kokolums; 2014-02-08 at 12:21 PM.
Well you are wrong.
You meet a lot of faceless ones in a specific place in the game(wont spoil it) and one of them very much looks like an old god(one of, if no the coolest fight in wc3).
Lore existed back then aswell, and if you read the manual they talk about 5 old gods.
That's from the RPG, it's not canon.
This is wrong. Aviana's blood didn't purify the demons, it infested them. They ripped themselves apart trying to get the blood off themselves.
But even the blood of the demigoddess fought for her, dripping down the lances of her slayers and pouring onto their hands. As she fell, lifeless, her assassins tore at their own hides, her blessed blood now infesting their unholy bodies. In the end, the Doomguard died to a one, rending themselves to pieces trying to escape what they could not.
--The Sundering, p. 351
I don't know why you're trying to argue against Night Elf origins. They evolved from Trolls and the Well of Eternity was their catalyst. This has been said numerous times before, as well as shown as fact. Why continue that argument?
Is it that you role-play a Night Elf and secretly just hate that Trolls really are your ancestors, because it seems quite stupid to disagree with the factual evidence shown before you.
all land is troll land.
Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor
I'm not arguing that at all, I'm stating that in game their is a lot of room for more complex origins for Trolls, Night Elves, and Goblins, I am sure all three races came from a common Ancestor. I am fairly certain that the Common Ancestor was a Type of troll. To me I think the First Troll was caused when the Mogu were effected by the Curse of flesh, ie Mogu are the missing Progenitor of the Troll. Most of the clues are there to make that the most plausible origin.
However there are just as many clues in game that the common belief that trolls came first is not the only way. In the WC3 source book Night Elves predate Trolls. In Branns theory he believes Trolls existed before The titans set up camp. Metzen in an interview jokingly said Trolls came first. Trolls call Titans Wanderers, and other things which implies they have a different perspective on ancient history.
A faceless one remembers the day Goblins were created. Which goes back to my theory that Goblins came from trolls.
So no, you are completely mis-reading my posts and failing to see that I am just trying to point out there are many possible origins, and the blind acceptance of one idea can lead to disappointment if Blizzard makes new lore in any way different than what you know.
The fact that there is a Night Elf and Troll model in a Titan raid, in the room showing all the Titan creations, means they can do things different than expected. So far only Brann has theories as to the Origin of Night Elves and Trolls, so far he was wrong about the Origin of Humans. (in vanilla he thought they came from STV apes.)