Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[DeadmanWalking]

Dragon Soul was obviously not designed with LFR in mind. The production value of the newer raids went up by a huge margin with MoP, which is because of the success of Dragon Soul LFR, which was only created as a test run. Dragon Soul's lack of quality was because of Blizzard spreading its resources too thin by rebuilding Azeroth (lack of content during the entire expansion was very, very apparent from start to finish), as well as releasing 3 new Dungeons in the same patch.

Blaming LFR for the quality of Dragon Soul is the most illogical, non-sensical, and outright ignorant thing you could say.

I stand by the claim that if they had turned those 3 end times dungeons into Raids instead of 5 mans no one would of bitched so much about how quick and easy the raids were.

[Madness20]

I would say the turning point on wow quality was obviously directing the game to casuals, and alot of consequences from that, and that was exactly (in my opinion) during the launch of wotlk expansion.

To direct the game to casuals they simply eliminated every time consuming questing like attunements, like dailys for rep to start with some decent gear, like nerfing heroics and normal dungeons, introducing badges to skip tiers, RDF and later LFR, that basically made so that the game can be almost completelly cleared with a random raid group, without much synch or experience required, or without any major socialization, i mean, apart from top tier raiding guilds, do guilds even have a reason to exist nowadays?
Also, oversimplification of gear, character's trees, and speccing so that blizzard could "easily balance" DPS/Heal Meters, just because all of a sudden wow became a DPS/Heal Meter contest where all classes must have the same tools with different names, instead of the multitude of unique utilitys that each class spec could bring to the raid.

Without time consuming stuff, lesser and lesser people are online, and so, the gaming experience from having a big regular community in almost any server, is now long gone. Back in Vanilla/TBC, people actually depended on knowing other people, on making wow "buddies" to raid with on a regular basis and in sum to also share the gaming experience, now wow seems much more like a solo game that you happen to be able to make contact with other players.
The game simply became to easy, too fast to be enjoyable and to feel even rewarding when you finally complete your gear.

Casuals obviously always have been the majority of wow gamers, but it's not like they were demanding at all in Vanilla/TBC. The problem by directing the game to try to hang casuals, and on a basis, a very unreliable source of income too, because they easily cancel subscriptions, and so the pressure on Blizzard to direct the game to the increasingly demanding "casuals" subscriptors, well, made it became the game we know.

[Nyogtha666]

Yep, I'm the same. I got incredibly bored of the gear grind a year ago and only came back recently because I wanted to kill Garrosh. I don't see myself sticking around after that as I'm already starting to get sick of trudging through scenarios, then heroics, then LFR tiers.. etc. Not only that but my server is practically dead so it's impossible to find anyone to raid with until virtual realms comes in.

WoW is in a pretty dreary state right now even though I like a lot of the new changes. There's just not enough people playing anymore.

Well said! Same sort of thing where the queue times take far too long. You could form a group but no one seems to be willing. The social aspect has been slowly disintegrating over the years. Plus, pugging tends to lead to being grouped up with complete morons.

Not to mention the daily grinds. Now, without the limit, dalies can be ridiculously time consuming, as well as repetitive and boring. Last time I checked, when I come home from work, I want to go on WoW to have fun, not go back to work.

[vesseblah]

I would say the turning point on wow quality was obviously directing the game to casuals, and alot of consequences from that, and that was exactly (in my opinion) during the launch of wotlk expansion.

Too bad you're wrong, and therefore the rest of that post is invalidated.

WoW was made casual before release, and it has stayed casual for most of the time. Early Cata tried to make it more hardcore which backfired big time.

[Glorious Leader]

I would say the turning point on wow quality was obviously directing the game to casuals, and alot of consequences from that, and that was exactly (in my opinion) during the launch of wotlk expansion.

The history of the game is increasing the casual nature of all it's system for more accessibility. It was obviously less so in tbc and in vanilla but the trend continued right up until cataclysm when the game began it's decline. Indeed the guy who earlier said catering to elitists is what got them here is correct.

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If Blizzard is experimenting, I suggest you give them good data by avoiding parts of the game that you don't like (even if they have rewards you might want.) You don't want them to be misled that something is wanted, when people are merely gritting their teeth and doing it for the pixels.

Maybe we should all think about what it would be that Blizzard could add that would retain people better.

My sincere hope is that this is what people do. My fear is that heckers nightmare is very real and people will continue to do things like lifr in the same fashion they would a slot machine in vegas.

As for what they could do to retain people better my first thought is that the further away from that slot machine they get the better. No more randomized character progression at max level or as little as possible. Deterministic character progression TIED TO WHATEVER ACTIVITY YOU WANT TO DO should be seriously considered. That way I'm actually doing what I enjoy EVEN IF IT'S ONLY FISHING and not dicking around in a raid because that's where the gear funnel leads.

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DS was a bad raid. LFR didn't have anything to do with that.

As for whether or not they can still design good raids: It's not that they can't but they won't if LFR is removed. They clearly can as MoP has shown and that's with LFR in full force. Take it away and the number of people raiding will shrink back to a tiny niche and that will be that.

There's a big difference between budgeting for and designing a newer strong game that continues to grow and one that has peaked and has started on the downslope (as all games do eventually). Priorities change and what was once a luxury will get cut. Post-Cataclysm it's unrealistic to think that a scenario that is set up minus LFR and only 5-10% at best raiding would see a lot of design effort assigned to it.

It's head-in-the-clouds thinking, which I guess you're welcome to. It's not very realistic though. And simply saying that Blizzard has a lot of money isn't going to work either. WoW pays for a lot of stuff unrelated to the game itself. It's not that they won't want to make great raids, it'll be a simple business decision. They'll design content for the majority of people playing the game. That's not now and has never been raiders. Fourteen boss raids are a luxury that will end dead stop without a lot people to play them.

In his defence with titan taking a back seat and the devs claim that they're ramping up production to do both dungeons and raids and offer maybe even monthly content patches I do think his wish may come true. I do not think LFR will go anywhere though even with that. One thing I hope the developers learned above all else this expansion is that you can't take something away from people, something that they got used to having and expect them to be happy about it. I'd rather the story be told in dungeons and dungeons offer an alternative to normal raiding. If that happens then lfr can go to hell. I doubt it though even with the ramped up production staff.

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I wish someone from Blizzard could explain that logic to me. Or anyone, really.

It's actually rather simple. The developers are and were in the past hardcore raiders in EQ for example. They are also many of them current raiders. Design is as much about your own taste as it is catering to the taste of your audience. So their decisions get colored and influenced by what they think is fun and what they think everyone else should think is fun. They lack objectivity and apparently chiltons admission is that they have no clue what their players want. So in the space of that they simple design what they think is best what they themselves like to enjoy. They may have to much creative and artistic license in this respect.

[DrSteveBrule]

Too bad you're wrong, and therefore the rest of that post is invalidated.

WoW was made casual before release, and it has stayed casual for most of the time. Early Cata tried to make it more hardcore which backfired big time.

You can't make a game casual, it's all in control of the player to play a game "casually."
That's the biggest problem Blizzard and most of MMO-C can't understand.

And if you're referring to PvE content being more difficult which backfired then what do you call the massive sub losses after the focus on "casuals?"

Backbackfire? Keep in mind their previous design philosophy brought 12 million players. Here we are one and half expansions later since the "casual revolution" and the game is dropping.

[obserd]

You can't make a game casual, it's all in control of the player to play a game "casually."
That's the biggest problem Blizzard and most of MMO-C can't understand.

And if you're referring to PvE content being more difficult which backfired then what do you call the massive sub losses after the focus on "casuals?"

Backbackfire? Keep in mind their previous design philosophy brought 12 million players. Here we are one and half expansions later since the "casual revolution" and the game is dropping.

I concur sir

[Drakain]

If something takes more time, it is by definition, harder.

Also, I take it you never actually tried 4 horsemen back in Vanilla, or KT, or M'uru, etc etc.

Well, that's just silly.

[Glorious Leader]

You can't make a game casual, it's all in control of the player to play a game "casually."
That's the biggest problem Blizzard and most of MMO-C can't understand.

And if you're referring to PvE content being more difficult which backfired then what do you call the massive sub losses after the focus on "casuals?"

Backbackfire? Keep in mind their previous design philosophy brought 12 million players. Here we are one and half expansions later since the "casual revolution" and the game is dropping.

You absolutely can make a game casual friendly. World of warcraft WAS that game especially relative to other mmos out there. It's not a big problem for anyone except you who can't understand the concept that you can tailor your game to your audience. That's exactly what Blizzard has almost always done.

The "massive sub losses after the focus on casuals" is simple. They haven't actually focused on casuals (as their business handlers note). The game over the years increasingly did focus on casual play style RIGHT UP until cataclysm when they made it harder. That backfired. Mists made it more time consuming (which is really ultimately the same as making it harder for casual players who aren't also skilled players or know skilled players) that back fired.

[obserd]

You absolutely can make a game casual friendly. World of warcraft WAS that game especially relative to other mmos out there. It's not a big problem for anyone except you who can't understand the concept that you can tailor your game to your audience. That's exactly what Blizzard has almost always done.

The "massive sub losses after the focus on casuals" is simple. They haven't actually focused on casuals (as their business handlers note). The game over the years increasingly did focus on casual play style RIGHT UP until cataclysm when they made it harder. That backfired. Mists made it more time consuming (which is really ultimately the same as making it harder for casual players who aren't also skilled players or know skilled players) that back fired.

Forget casual and hardcore. You can either play a lot & be hardcore or play sparingly & be labeled casual. That's the style a player chooses. I'm just gonna call it making the game easier , less complicated , less epic & less interactive. IMO that's the downfall of the game & it hurts both hardcore & casual players.

[Glorious Leader]

Forget casual and hardcore. You can either play a lot & be hardcore or play sparingly & be labeled casual. That's the style a player chooses. I'm just gonna call it making the game easier , less complicated , less epic & less interactive. IMO that's the downfall of the game & it hurts both hardcore & casual players.

It's all relative. Playing the game less for you may be only playing for 10 hours a week but for some people that may be playing ALOT. Well you both pay 15 bucks why should one of you be entertained or less entertained so the other can be more enteratined? or entertained for longer?

[Dormie]

"Casuals" ruined WoW by playing it, not liking it, and wanting it changed to their desires rather than finding a new game.

[Osmeric]

"Casuals" ruined WoW by playing it, not liking it, and wanting it changed to their desires rather than finding a new game.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard reacts to those players actually finding other games. Maybe you're blaming the casuals for having the gall to be not entirely immune to being lured back?

[obserd]

"Casuals" ruined WoW by playing it, not liking it, and wanting it changed to their desires rather than finding a new game.

I think casuals made up a lot less than most players make it out to be ..... I don't consider people who raid or have a level 90 to be casual. Those people are invested. I think there's less than 10% super hardcore raiders and probably less than 20-30% casual players. Then there's everybody else in the middle - the regular player that plays enough , but not competing for server firsts. No matter how you look at it when you dumb down a product everybody loses. If I eat 7 slices of bad pizza , somebody else eats 14 and somebody else eats 2 it's still bad pizza

[DrSteveBrule]

It's all relative. Playing the game less for you may be only playing for 10 hours a week but for some people that may be playing ALOT. Well you both pay 15 bucks why should one of you be entertained or less entertained so the other can be more enteratined? or entertained for longer?

I know I said I was ignoring you but I think you hit a new low with this.

Enterainment is relative as well. You seem to think entertainment is defined by the quantity of content and acquisition of things.
That has nothing to do with "casual" players.

Wanting to see content doesn't make players casual. We all share that.
Casuals don't want anything but to play the game on their own time.

How much or how little they achieve is irrelavent to "casual" players and more relevant to the players as individuals. It's subjective.

[devilbesideyou]

The game has gotten older. Quite simply, the young people who were playing it 10 years ago had the time to do all that, all that time-sinking activities that you used to "love". But OMG, it is now 10 years later, people grow up (hopefully) and have more responsibilities. Seriously who has the time to run by foot all over the place until level 40, or level lockpicking, or spam trade in a city until you get a group going, or to sit for hrs at a time wiping on a boss for progression with the guild (I used to do that, thankfully not anymore), or what about getting a rare mount drop for your alt and unable to use it on your main?

I love the fact that the game has grown more casual. Blizzard are smart & cater the game to their biggest subscribing groups. It is about a changing gaming demographic, if you're not dynamic enough to make changes and revolutionalise the game, it will become stale and you'd end up losing more down the track.

The ratio of anti-casual vs pro-casual is rather high (relatively) in these forums, but of course it would be, seeing as casuals don't really waste time on forums...being casuals and all.

Plus I see everything as an extension, now you can play the game to suit your needs! If you're that elite 5% of the population, feel free to go on your heroic raids...but I'm just happy with my welfare epics from raid finder thanks.

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It's all relative. Playing the game less for you may be only playing for 10 hours a week but for some people that may be playing ALOT. Well you both pay 15 bucks why should one of you be entertained or less entertained so the other can be more enteratined? or entertained for longer?

Well from that argument, everyone is paying the same however the weekly maintennance is in prime time for Oceanic players. We lose out on 1/7 night of playing the game, for the last 10 years. How is that equal? We are minority that is why it is never changed, the same reason what you're arguing, you are a minority your pleas go unheard.

[Glorious Leader]

Well from that argument, everyone is paying the same however the weekly maintennance is in prime time for Oceanic players. We lose out on 1/7 night of playing the game, for the last 10 years. How is that equal? We are minority that is why it is never changed, the same reason what you're arguing, you are a minority your pleas go unheard.

Actually I do think the people playing 10-15 hours a week are the majority. Certainly relative to players who play 20+ but I can't really say I guess without data. Either way I do think that's bs about oceanic realms.

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Casuals don't want anything but to play the game on their own time.

Right Okay I agree. Well to get any task completed (specifically the task of aquiring character power) takes far longer in this adaptation of warcraft then it did before. Playing it on their own time in mists essentially meant getting nowhere in the game and it's BECAUSE some PEOPLE did play for 20+ hours and were bored when they exhuasted content. They demanded more and this came at the expense of everyone else. Playing it in their own time is a significantly less rewarding experience (in terms of player progression) then it was in wotlk and in cataclysm. Unless your own time is 20+ hours.

If how much they achieve is irellevant to "casual" players but wholly relevant to individuals then fine. Individuals (specfically individuals who did not play this game for more than 20+ hours a week) got far less achievement and progress in mists than they did before. Now you can argue the label casual doesn't fit but whatever. It's just semantics.

[vesseblah]

You can't make a game casual, it's all in control of the player to play a game "casually."
That's the biggest problem Blizzard and most of MMO-C can't understand.

WoW was made to be more casual than the current MMOs of the time, mainly EQ, Lineage and FFXI. No death penalty and no grind to hit level cap were the big ones.

Now repeat after me until you understand: WoW was made to be casual game, WoW was made to be casual game...

And if you're referring to PvE content being more difficult which backfired then what do you call the massive sub losses after the focus on "casuals?"

Backbackfire? Keep in mind their previous design philosophy brought 12 million players. Here we are one and half expansions later since the "casual revolution" and the game is dropping.

Cataclysm start removed the most casual content which is the change that backfired and caused biggest sub losses. Blue posts have said multiple times and those on this forum with a working set of brains do understand that making normal mode raiding no longer accessible to "friends and family" guilds after WLK and heroic five-man instances no longer viable for LFD randoms was a big mistake.

[Vintersol]

Cataclysm start removed the most casual content which is the change that backfired and caused biggest sub losses. Blue posts have said multiple times and those on this forum with a working set of brains do understand that making normal mode raiding no longer accessible to "friends and family" guilds after WLK and heroic five-man instances no longer viable for LFD randoms was a big mistake.

Because every bluepost tells the truth? I don't get it why it's so hard to understand, that blizzard made changes that backfired. Give a child a lollypop and then take it back. Same reaction. Blizzard had conditioned the players for the new concept of "everything low and easy accessibly until hardmodes", not vice versa. That doesn't mean that this is brilliant and mmorpgs can only work this way.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't get it why it's so hard to understand, that blizzard made changes that backfired. Give a child a lollypop and then take it back. Same reaction. .

It's not. That's exactly what many of us are saying they did. Example VALOR GEAR. The changes to valor gear made this expansion (and the eventual removal of it) was a bad move and backfired on them .Actually the changes to easy access to "welfare epics" in general. The biggest backfire was basically what the guy said earlier in the thread. The severe neutering of any content or system that MIGHT compete with lfr or raiding in general as an alternative to gearing. Another example harder dungeons in cataclysm. Another example harder 10 man raids. All back fired. Trust me I've got any NUMBER of criticisms about the game and it's developers and if you go back and read through the thread I think that's apparent. The key difference is that they don't follow the same ideological or philosophical bend that you get around here.