Possible solution for Demon Hunter lovers.

[Deleted]

Assuming there are multiple expansions left for wow, and possible class pool is becoming smaller and smaller, Blizzard will have to 100% invent new class types that have nothing to do with previous lore at all.

[Traveler Voltin]

If they use mainly fire and pure arcane, thats fine. It makes it even more different from warlocks if you replace all shadow and fel magics in my DH concept.

But I do believe, that if DH is playable class, they probably have some Illidan type inspiration. WoW is not stagnated on wc3 units, WoW develops the lore.

fel magic is one those. "only use if you have to" kind of things. fire and arcane are their magic magic types they use. which people seem to be ignoring. mainly teriz.

[Teriz]

Bravo, you twisted this in a way I didn't see possible.

And you ignore in-game evidence yet again. Bravo indeed.

No, it is not assuming a Druid of the Flame class to be made. It is assuming Druid of the Flame is a representative of the entire Druid theme, and therefore are too similar to Fire Mages; and this building a case to add Druids as a part of the Mage class. This parallels your assertion to merge the Demon Hunter and Warlock classes perfectly, since all similarities are based on the Illidari as the mediator.

That is a flawed comparison. In the case of Druids, we have a counter group to the Druid of the Flame, and we have Malfurion which has been established as the main source of inspiration for the WoW Druid class. We've also know far more about Malfurion and the Cenarian circle than we could ever know about the flaming Druids, because we've known Malfurion and his druids since WC3. If we didn't have that link established, then of course Druids of the Flame would be representative of the entire Druid theme, because it would be the only Druid theme we'd have been exposed to.

That is the problem with the DH theme and your interpretation of it. All we have in WoW for the DH theme is the Illidari. There is no counter example beyond a couple of former Illidari NPCs who thought Illidan went too far. So guess what? We have to base everything we knew about DHs on the Illidari, because there is nothing else to hang our hats on. We've known Illidan since WC3, and he is the first Demon Hunter we were exposed to. He's also the established trainer of every other DH we've ever encountered in the game world.

To clarify, Demon Hunters of Warcraft 3 very much have the potential of being their own standalone class. Every piece of thematic conflict with Warlocks is driven by an unrelated faction that shares those similarities.

Warlocks hunt demons for their power, Demon Hunters hunt demons for their power. The goal for both appears to be gaining more demonic power to accomplish their personal ends. I'm not seeing the difference in drive.

The assumption that Demon Hunters empower themselves by killing Demons is a logical fallacy.

So Illidan killing the demon Azzinoth to acquire the Wargliaves of Azzinoth is an assumption?

Because they are by all means examples of a class that have gone beyond their path. You before recognized what happens when a Paladin or a Druid falls to corruption - they ultimately are no longer Paladins or Druids. The Illidari embody corruption. Illidan himself embodies corruption. That is why you should not use them as a source, because you are using examples of a class that has been corrupted.

Except in the case of Demon Hunters and Warlocks, there is no evidence that a corrupted Warlock or a Demon Hunter stops being a Warlock or a DH because they're corrupted. Considering that they deal constantly with demonic magic, possible corruption is part of the job description.

Nature and Holy magic? Not so much.

- - - Updated - - -

Assuming there are multiple expansions left for wow, and possible class pool is becoming smaller and smaller, Blizzard will have to 100% invent new class types that have nothing to do with previous lore at all.

That's assuming WoW is going to last past 2020.

I seriously doubt it will.

You're probably looking at one more class (Tinkers) in 2016, and 2 more races in 2018, and 4th specs in 2020.

At that point, Blizzard will probably be getting WoW 2 ready to go.

[Thimagryn]

You're assuming Tyrande is not a priest because you don't see evidences that, in your eyes, say she is a priest. You're assuming things based on lack of evidences. Just like a TV turned off doesn't mean it cannot be turned on, or a man not showing interest toward a girl doesn't mean he's gay.

Quite the opposite. What you are doing is calling every dark skinned person in the room 'Black' because they look 'Black'. Even when you know that person is from Fiji, Pakistan or Sudan. On the outset, you might think 'well it's just skin color, and that's what they are' until your realize those broad terms simply don't apply.

'Hunter' is not a broad-ranging term. It's specific to a class that uses ranged weaponry, uses traps and has pets as a part of their kit. Simply picking up a bow doesn't make you a Hunter in Warcraft, and there are even class distinctions to further this since units like Archers and Crossbowmen existed in the RTS. This is even further compounded by the existence of multiple non-Ranger/Hunter Bow classes, like the Sea Witch and Priestess of the Moon. Moreover, the Hunter class itself is heavily incorporates Beastmaster themes. This is why Sylvanas is not classified as a Hunter, she shares nothing in common with the class outside of the use of a Bow and being the source of the spell 'Black Arrow'. Priestess of the Moon has just as much reason being called a Hunter by comparison.

You're being told Tyrande is a Priestess of the Moon. There's no reason to make any assumptions of what other class they could be when we're not told they are that class. Her identity is equally divided into three for being a 'Priest' for her title, a 'Hunter' for using a bow, and a 'Druid' for using Moon magic. If I assumed Tyrande is a Druid because she has Starfall and Moonfire (two of her abilities in WoW) then what is your proof against my claims? How can you prove to me that she is more a Priest than a Druid? You can't, because the entire classification is based on conjecture. We would be discussing perceptions rather than factual evidence. There is only one answer to what class Tyrande is, and that's Priestess of the Moon.

[Ginantonicus]

... demon hunters will be a class when the time comes.

Do you know something we don't? ... No ... so your just making stuff up.

[Thimagryn]

That is the problem with the DH theme and your interpretation of it. All we have in WoW for the DH theme is the Illidari. There is no counter example beyond a couple of former Illidari NPCs who thought Illidan went too far. So guess what? We have to base everything we knew about DHs on the Illidari, because there is nothing else to hang our hats on. We've known Illidan since WC3, and he is the first Demon Hunter we were exposed to. He's also the established trainer of every other DH we've ever encountered in the game world.

If we based the Monk class on everything we know on Brewmasters and Monks prior to MoP, we wouldn't have Mistweaver, Chi, Windwalker or Martial Arts in general. None of these themes existed directly on the Brewmaster Hero, just as you are limiting the scope and identity of the Demon Hunter.

Martial Arts is derived as an extension of one Brewmaster spell, Drunken Brawler. From that, the entire scope of attacks was built for this class, from Flying Dragon Kicks to Spinning Crane Kicks. None of this is based on what we know of the Brewmaster Hero, it was created in WoW to serve the purpose of WoW. If we used your method of sticking with what we know, we would have a class with 3 specs based on using Brews and Alchohol as the main form of attack, Beer being the main theme.

If you look at WoW, we do have evidence of Monks in the game before the Monk class. If we use your method of sourcing NPCs for class identity, then Scarlet Crusaders and Auchenai Crypt Monks would be your template.

Your end result will be a Brewmaster Class with a mix of Beer and holy magic based on Scarlet Crusaders/Dead Draenei. On top of this ecclectic mix, you would complain that Monks are too similar to Paladins and Priests, who are already using Holy magic!


This is why your method of addressing Demon Hunter identity is completely flawed. You are not leaving potential for identity change or growth, and are blanketting a 'Demon' theme over the entire class simply because of the Illidari Demon Hunter's association with Demons. You're still disregarding the fact that Illidari are an enemy faction opposing the core Warcraft 3 class description, and nothing of the Illidari is done selflessly or for greater good intent. The identity of the Demon Hunter class should remain pure and derived from sources that best fit the core ideals of this class - that being of selfless warriors who made great personal sacrifice for Demonic power. This is exactly what the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter is.

[Ginantonicus]

So the DH abilities from WC3 where Mana burn which was given to priests and then removed from the game, rouges got evasion, warlocks got Immolation (Aura) and Metamorphoses. So all that's left is an agile melee fighter ( aka rouge). Where exactly is the design space?

[Jtree]

It was brought in to illustrate the connection between Locks and Demon Hunters. Just like Shaman received a glyph that turned their Searing totem into the Shadow Hunter's Serpent Ward.

Nope.

It was added because the Demo/Tanking experiment in MoP Alpha was deemed to interesting to lose.

It was called "Glyph of Demon Hunting" for no known reason.

It grants Dark Apotheosis, named that because that was the suggestion made right here on MMO-Champion's warlock forum.

Teriz, you're always trying to tell us how players will feel about a DH class. Well listen to me when I tell you: warlock players do not look at the glyph as their means to be a DH. From its introduction, to its nerfing, to more recent discussions, Locks talk about the defensive and tanking potential of the glyph, not how it makes them a DH.

That is a flawed comparison. In the case of Druids, we have a counter group to the Druid of the Flame, and we have Malfurion which has been established as the main source of inspiration for the WoW Druid class. We've also know far more about Malfurion and the Cenarian circle than we could ever know about the flaming Druids, because we've known Malfurion and his druids since WC3. If we didn't have that link established, then of course Druids of the Flame would be representative of the entire Druid theme, because it would be the only Druid theme we'd have been exposed to.

That is the problem with the DH theme and your interpretation of it. All we have in WoW for the DH theme is the Illidari. There is no counter example beyond a couple of former Illidari NPCs who thought Illidan went too far. So guess what? We have to base everything we knew about DHs on the Illidari, because there is nothing else to hang our hats on. We've known Illidan since WC3, and he is the first Demon Hunter we were exposed to. He's also the established trainer of every other DH we've ever encountered in the game world.

What, Blizzard is incapable of creating an Ebon Blade type faction for a DH class? We already know what the name could be: the Dark Embrace.

Prior to Wrath, we had no foundation or interpretation in WoW for "good" DKs. Blizzard wrote a story of betrayal and revenge, to create the proper setting to bring them back into the Alliance and Horde. They invented a whole new faction and multiple new iconic figures for them: Darion Mograine, Koltira, Thassarian.

A DH hero class would also get a new story and new, important figures, setting up their integration into the greater world.

Likewise, the Illidari are still being defined. The Black Harvest story told us some new things about the nature of that organization, and how Illidan pulled off building an army of demons (great paychecks). Now, going forward, is there enough of them left to be a significant part of a new expansion?

[Thimagryn]

So the DH abilities from WC3 where Mana burn which was given to priests and then removed from the game, rouges got evasion, warlocks got Immolation (Aura) and Metamorphoses. So all that's left is an agile melee fighter ( aka rouge). Where exactly is the design space?

Design space is where it always was - based on core tenants of the Demon Hunter class itself, not on 4 spells (and arguably mechanics) of an antequated era.

Paladins were not built on 4 spells. Holy Light, Devotion Aura, Divine Shield and Ressurection are all defensive spells. You would not have gotten a 'Retribution spec' out of any of these abilities, and if you look at Retribution itself, it uses none of these abilities for DPS. Retribution has 100% new spells designed to fit the role of Holy-based Melee DPS. Inquisition, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, Hammer of Wrath, Hammer of Justice, Templar's Verdict. These are WoW-built spells for a spec that did not exist in the context of Warcraft 3.

Demon Hunters would fit in exactly where it's needed, as a Dual Wielding Spell-based melee DPS akin to Death Knights and Enh Shammies, as a non-leather Evasion/Parry Tank, and with a 3rd spec left open to interpretation, including a physical or caster ranged spec. New spells would be designed for each of these 3 specs, with an obvious number referencing directly from Warcraft 3, possibly Heroes of the Storm.

Betrayer's Strike, Crescent Sweep, The Hunt, Lunge are all possible Demon Hunter attacks. Mark of Azzinoth could easily be named 'Mark of the Dark Herald'. Evasion, Metamorphosis, Immolation and Mana Burn would return in new forms.

It's plenty doable.

[Ginantonicus]

Design space is where it always was - based on core tenants of the Demon Hunter class itself, not on 4 spells (and arguably mechanics) of an antequated era.

Paladins were not built on 4 spells. Holy Light, Devotion Aura, Divine Shield and Ressurection are all defensive spells. You would not have gotten a 'Retribution spec' out of any of these abilities, and if you look at Retribution itself, it uses none of these abilities for DPS. Retribution has 100% new spells designed to fit the role of Holy-based Melee DPS. Inquisition, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, Hammer of Wrath, Hammer of Justice, Templar's Verdict. These are WoW-built spells for a spec that did not exist in the context of Warcraft 3.

And how do you explain Retribution Spec as being derived from Warcraft 3's design space?

So what you want is some bad ass agile melee fighter that has warglaives. Go roll a rouge call it "Demonhunter" and farm BT for the warglaives.

The design space is limited. I would so far as to say not there. You are being ignorant and just don't see it.

I'm not talking about a spec (Retribution), I'm talking about a class.

[Thimagryn]

So what you want is some bad ass agile melee fighter that has warglaives. Go roll a rouge call it "Demonhunter" and farm BT for the warglaives.

The design space is limited. I would so far as to say not there. You are being ignorant and just don't see it.

Rogues can't tank, and I'm the one being ignorant?

Badass with warglaives has nothing to do with it. I gave you a full explanation without even mentioning weapons. The fact that you ignored everything I wrote and simply implied your own assumption of what I want shows that you are the ignorant one in this conversation.

Despite what you think my intentions are, I am debating on behalf of Demon Hunters on principle that any class has the potential become playable.

[Ginantonicus]

Rogues can't tank, and I'm the one being ignorant?

Badass with warglaives has nothing to do with it. I gave you a full explanation without even mentioning weapons. The fact that you ignored everything I wrote and simply implied your own assumption of what I want shows that you are the ignorant one in this conversation.

Oh so Demon Hunters can tank now .When did that get announced? Dude STOP MAKING STUFF UP.

I'm not talking about a spec (Retribution), I'm talking about a class.

[Thimagryn]

Oh so Demon Hunters can tank now .When did that get announced? Dude STOP MAKING STUFF UP.

I'm not talking about a spec (Retribution), I'm talking about a class.

If you ever played Warcraft 3, you would know Demon Hunters can tank. They were the best tanks in the game, able to avoid 30% of all physical damage on top of having an ultimate ability that gave them 500 hit points AND massive health regeneration. They weren't known for being DPS, like Blademasters were, they are known for being tough-to-kill fighters who drain heroes of their mana.

It's not making stuff up, it's knowing the class I'm talking about.

[Skayth]

Oh so Demon Hunters can tank now .When did that get announced? Dude STOP MAKING STUFF UP.

I'm not talking about a spec (Retribution), I'm talking about a class.

Who tanked mannoroth in well of eternity? Illidan.

[Ginantonicus]

If you ever played Warcraft 3, you would know Demon Hunters can tank. They were the best tanks in the game, able to avoid 30% of all physical damage on top of having an ultimate ability that gave them 500 hit points AND massive health regeneration. They weren't known for being DPS, like Blademasters were, they are known for being tough-to-kill fighters who drain heroes of their mana.

It's not making stuff up, it's knowing the class I'm talking about.

I should clarify I wasn't referring to tanking in wc3. You cant say a DH a tank because that's what he did 10 years ago and if you notice his main tanking ability went to a dps. Dh are a tank, if blizzard ever releases them, when they have a tank spec.

Who tanked mannoroth in well of eternity? Illidan.

That's is also game play
.

[Teriz]

If we based the Monk class on everything we know on Brewmasters and Monks prior to MoP, we wouldn't have Mistweaver, Chi, Windwalker or Martial Arts in general. None of these themes existed directly on the Brewmaster Hero, just as you are limiting the scope and identity of the Demon Hunter.

The Brewmaster was a martial artist. That automatically ties him to the Monk archetype. If you know anything about the Monk archetype, you would know that healing, direct damage, and tanking is a part of it.

When I devised a Monk class concept, I invoked similar themes, including melee healing.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ea-Runemasters!

The reason I assumed it was Runemasters instead of Brewmasters? I thought the BrM hero was too silly for WoW implementation.

Martial Arts is derived as an extension of one Brewmaster spell, Drunken Brawler. From that, the entire scope of attacks was built for this class, from Flying Dragon Kicks to Spinning Crane Kicks. None of this is based on what we know of the Brewmaster Hero, it was created in WoW to serve the purpose of WoW. If we used your method of sticking with what we know, we would have a class with 3 specs based on using Brews and Alchohol as the main form of attack, Beer being the main theme.

Again, its pretty easy to develop a class when you can link the concept to a larger archetype. Link Brewmaster to a Martial Art/Monk theme, and you can devise an entire class around it. Additionally, since there was no martial arts class in WoW, the design space was wide open to do so.

If you look at WoW, we do have evidence of Monks in the game before the Monk class. If we use your method of sourcing NPCs for class identity, then Scarlet Crusaders and Auchenai Crypt Monks would be your template.

But again, we didn't need to go that route because we had the Brewmaster hero from WC3 who also utilized the Martial Art theme, and could be used to introduce Pandaria and the Pandaren into the game.

This is why your method of addressing Demon Hunter identity is completely flawed. You are not leaving potential for identity change or growth, and are blanketting a 'Demon' theme over the entire class simply because of the Illidari Demon Hunter's association with Demons. You're still disregarding the fact that Illidari are an enemy faction opposing the core Warcraft 3 class description, and nothing of the Illidari is done selflessly or for greater good intent. The identity of the Demon Hunter class should remain pure and derived from sources that best fit the core ideals of this class - that being of selfless warriors who made great personal sacrifice for Demonic power. This is exactly what the Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter is.

You're grossly incorrect, and your comparisons are laughable and absurd. Its easy to derive a Monk class from a hero who is a Panda in Kung Fu garb that performs martial arts, and splits into three beings who come straight out of Big Trouble in Little China. Its also pretty easy to build a Monk class when;

A. Monk is a large RPG archetype.
B. There was no WoW Martial Arts class to overlap with.

Your idea that Demon Hunters are demonic Paladins is nonsense, and isn't supported by lore at all. Illidan, the alpha Demon Hunter, the model from which all Demon Hunters are based on, the DH every DH fan wants to be, contradicts everything you've stated in this discussion. Who do you think Blizzard is basing the DH concept on? Illidan, perhaps the most popular character Warcraft history, or some random Illidari hanging out in Felwood somewhere?

[Traveler Voltin]

The Brewmaster was a martial artist. That automatically ties him to the Monk archetype. If you know anything about the Monk archetype, you would know that healing, direct damage, and tanking is a part of it.

When I devised a Monk class concept, I invoked similar themes, including melee healing.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ea-Runemasters!

The reason I assumed it was Runemasters instead of Brewmasters? I thought the BrM hero was too silly for WoW implementation.



Again, its pretty easy to develop a class when you can link the concept to a larger archetype. Link Brewmaster to a Martial Art/Monk theme, and you can devise an entire class around it. Additionally, since there was no martial arts class in WoW, the design space was wide open to do so.



But again, we didn't need to go that route because we had the Brewmaster hero from WC3 who also utilized the Martial Art theme, and could be used to introduce Pandaria and the Pandaren into the game.



You're grossly incorrect, and your comparisons are laughable and absurd. Its easy to derive a Monk class from a hero who is a Panda in Kung Fu garb that performs martial arts, and splits into three beings who come straight out of Big Trouble in Little China. Its also pretty easy to build a Monk class when;

A. Monk is a large RPG archetype.
B. There was no WoW Martial Arts class to overlap with.

Your idea that Demon Hunters are demonic Paladins is nonsense, and isn't supported by lore at all. Illidan, the alpha Demon Hunter, the model from which all Demon Hunters are based on, the DH every DH fan wants to be, contradicts everything you've stated in this discussion. Who do you think Blizzard is basing the DH concept on? Illidan, perhaps the most popular character Warcraft history, or some random Illidari hanging out in Felwood somewhere?

the monk NPCs we have fought since Classic are completely different from the monk class we got. both are monks but use different styles.

[Thimagryn]

The Brewmaster was a martial artist. That automatically ties him to the Monk archetype. If you know anything about the Monk archetype, you would know that healing, direct damage, and tanking is a part of it.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ea-Runemasters!

And I will say that despite using Demonic powers, a Demon Hunter class has the potential to inhabit all that is a Runemaster class. I can even derive a legitimate gameplay outline theming your Runemaster concept around the use of channeling power through their Runic tattooes. Deconstructing enemy magic to redirect it at them, channeling Fel magic instead of ley energy through the runes on their bodies, fighting using deadly physical attacks. All of this could easily exemplify the way Demon Hunters fight.

Again, its pretty easy to develop a class when you can link the concept to a larger archetype. Link Brewmaster to a Martial Art/Monk theme, and you can devise an entire class around it. Additionally, since there was no martial arts class in WoW, the design space was wide open to do so.

And since a 'Runemaster' does not yet exist in WoW, so it can with a Demon Hunter spec to represent the use of Demonic magic through runes. Or it could be vice versa, with a Demon Hunter class having a Runemaster spec to separate their identity from being 'Warlock/Rogue' copies. No other class channels abilities through runes to empower their bodies and weaponry. Not even Monks or DKs share this type of theme or gameplay.

These are but possibilities A Demon Hunter class/spec can further define themselves autonomously from Warlocks and Rogues.

Your idea that Demon Hunters are demonic Paladins is nonsense, and isn't supported by lore at all. Illidan, the alpha Demon Hunter, the model from which all Demon Hunters are based on, the DH every DH fan wants to be, contradicts everything you've stated in this discussion. Who do you think Blizzard is basing the DH concept on? Illidan, perhaps the most popular character Warcraft history, or some random Illidari hanging out in Felwood somewhere?

Altruis, Feronas Sindweller and Loramus Thalipedes say otherwise. Each of these three have displayed a sense of honor and knowing that shows this class is more than just a reckless band of misfits. Feronas Sindweller is not 'some random Illidari'. He is one of the original Demon Hunters taught by Illidan, and not a member of the Illidari faction at all. Keep in mind, Illidan killed his own kind at the top of Mount Hyjal when he created the second Well of Eternity. He is not the ideal Demon Hunter any more than Fandral Staghelm is Arch Druid of Darnassus.

Fact remains, the Demon Hunter 'order' of Warcraft 3 remains leaderless, if there ever intended to be one in the first place. Hints of the Dark Herald prove that there is a method to creating Demon Hunters that we do not yet know about. So really, your assertion taht the Illidari are prime examples of Demon Hunters would be no more than citing the Eredar as a reason why Draenei will never be a playable race. You say it is absurd to put Demon Hunters in a good light for their relationship with Demons, yet the Draenei/Eredar relationship is tied directly to demons, and Draenei lore was created as a direct example of 'good demons playable by the Alliance'.

[Teriz]

the monk NPCs we have fought since Classic are completely different from the monk class we got. both are monks but use different styles.

Yeah, but playable Monks came from this;

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

Just like every other WoW class before it.

[Thimagryn]

Yeah, but playable Monks came from this;

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

Just like every other WoW class before it.

Then why are you basing Demon Hunters on the Illidari instead of lore derived from this

http://classic.battle.net/war3/night...onhunter.shtml