[5.4] Bottled Fury: A Windwalker PvE Guide

[Totaltotemic]

Apart from that, dummy hitting is to RNG, real fights are too situational and vary too much, simcraft is crap anyway because it doesn't evaluate haste correctly, what is there to do then Mr. Methodology?

Long-winded mathematical analysis is the only real answer anymore. It's literally impossible to get a fight to happen the same way twice, dummies are literally worthless without full raid buffs/debuffs and even then are only marginally useful with full buffs/debuffs, and as everyone knows the Monk module for simcraft isn't anywhere near smart enough to deal with the class's unique mechanics.

[Deleted]

The new CB changes seem interesting, but this makes me wonder -- is it worth it going for higher haste values with CB even at lower gear levels (530-540) range? I was running 7k haste with AoC + Haromms and Ascension prior to the hotfix.

[kiraan]

so what woud be a nice pair of trinkets fo WW Monks ?

[Somaa]

Is AoC even worth using? I went from 476 Relic of Xuen to 548 AoC and my sim dps went down by almost 15k.

[Totaltotemic]

Simcraft is awful at using Fists of Fury properly, often at a DPS loss over taking it out entirely. As such it screws up even more than normal with AoC. It's better than just about every ToT trinket at 548, just not as good as the other SoO trinkets.

[bounstar]

I tried 10.5k haste for last nights raid and as much as I want to like that much haste, I really don't think it's feasible for oceanic ping. I could feel on Thok pulls that I wasn't really using the most of the GCD's (but then again who does with lust on pull). I think 9.5k is a reasonable compromise and lets me reach 60% crit fully raid buffed in my current gear. This current Chi Brew though has made the patch for me honestly. I've been a big advocate of having it redone and it feels like they've nailed it on the head so kudos to the devs. Now maybe one day I'll be able to play on sub 200 ms!

[ruga]

Simcraft is awful at using Fists of Fury properly, often at a DPS loss over taking it out entirely. As such it screws up even more than normal with AoC. It's better than just about every ToT trinket at 548, just not as good as the other SoO trinkets.

Honestly the proc "feels" quite strong as well, with the added chi brew fix even more.
I've been toying around with normal TED, normal Haromms and heroic AoC and tended towards TED/Haromm instead of AoCHC/Haromm normal.

[Callimonk]

I really don't mind AoC. As has been discussed, it is only a gain if you feel very confident with your FoF and EB usage. Otherwise, TED/Haromm's are both very strong choices (though, TED is stronger if you do use FoF fairly often).

That said, I'm looking forward to the day in which I can actually use Haromm's. It would be nice.

[Totaltotemic]

As an update on the Chi Brew change, the extra TEB blows the extra BoKs from Ascension out of the water on both single target and AoE fights. There is no more reason to use Ascension as WW ever. This also pushes the haste cap to 11-12k if your gear can support it as the case of trying to do single target damage while having Ascension no longer exists. There's more detail in my blog post, but that's the gist of it.

[Hinalover]

As an update on the Chi Brew change, the extra TEB blows the extra BoKs from Ascension out of the water on both single target and AoE fights. There is no more reason to use Ascension as WW ever. This also pushes the haste cap to 11-12k if your gear can support it as the case of trying to do single target damage while having Ascension no longer exists. There's more detail in my blog post, but that's the gist of it.

I think your missing the point of Ascension for AoE fights. The point is to have enough energy regen so that you can jab as well as to keep Rushing Jade Wind on cooldown. In order for that to happen, you need 80 energy every 6 seconds. That equates to 13.333 ("Repeating of course") Energy regen. Without Ascension, you need 14167 Haste Rating.

[Totaltotemic]

I think your missing the point of Ascension for AoE fights. The point is to have enough energy regen so that you can jab as well as to keep Rushing Jade Wind on cooldown. In order for that to happen, you need 80 energy every 6 seconds. That equates to 13.333 ("Repeating of course") Energy regen. Without Ascension, you need 14167 Haste Rating.

Why would you be using Jab every 6 seconds when RSK has an 8 second cooldown?

Edit: More complicated than I originally gave credit for because RJW's duration and cooldown gets shorter with haste, so let's take this from the top.

Assuming RJW is only hitting 2 targets (because if it were hitting 3 and you were gaining chi this wouldn't even be a question) and haste = 0, it costs 40 energy every 6 seconds for RJW and 40 energy every 8 seconds for a Jab + RSK (ignoring TP for now because even Chi Brew provides enough to cover that). That's 11.67 energy per second. Energizing Brew is an effective 1 energy/second, meaning only 6.7% haste is necessary to cover the remaining difference, or 2,847.5 haste rating. This is totally ignoring that Chi Brew (and Combo Breaker) covers enough chi for TP with some left over. So, no, RSK and RJW uptimes are still sustainable at 100% with Chi Brew, but Ascension gives access to more Jabs and more BoKs (and due to the relatively smaller amount are subsequently a bigger contributor as a percentage of TEB than with Chi Brew), the only difference now is that Chi Brew's TEB just overwhelms the extra resources provided by Ascension.

Ascension was only better before because it provided more single target damage focus in cleave situations, but the amount of TEB sustained by using the newer Chi Brew adds more to RJW and RSK damage than before, resulting in both an AoE and single target damage increase.

[Hinalover]

Why would you be using Jab every 6 seconds when RSK has an 8 second cooldown?

Basically what I'm suggesting is that you have 3 chi generated every 6 seconds to either RSK, TP, or BoK (RJW -> Jab -> BoK -> RJW -> RSK-> Jab -> RJW-> etc.). But in order for that to happen, you need 14,167 Haste Rating with Chi Brew. Yes this doesn't take into account the 2 Chi you gain every 45 seconds but still. If you want to factor that in you can probably go as low as 13,011 Haste Rating [(30/32.67) * 14,167]. I just think you are over-valuing the value of the change just a bit in aoe circumstances.

[Totaltotemic]

Basically what I'm suggesting is that you have 3 chi generated every 6 seconds to either RSK, TP, or BoK (RJW -> Jab -> BoK -> RJW -> RSK-> Jab -> RJW-> etc.). I just think you are over-valuing the value of the change just a bit in aoe circumstances.

Well at 50% mastery that's 1 extra TEB stack every 45 seconds because of the change, and not counting that it starts the fight off cooldown that would be a 33% uptime of a 6% damage increase, or an extra 2% of base damage throughout the fight. Considering the talents themselves sit at around 8% of DPS's value, the extra stack means a lot. I don't think you'd be dismissing it without even looking at it if they just straight up increased it to 2 chi and 3 TEB stacks per use, but that's effectively what this does.

Also there's nothing magical about 3 chi every 6 seconds, that's just something you made up. Each additional BoK past simply keeping RJW and RSK on CD does the same whether you're filling every GCD you have or if it's just one per fight.

[siccora]

does the same "weapon" rule for 2H and 1H apply as is it for brewmasters? hence 2 normal mode 1H vs hc 2H? what should i pick?

[aesthir]

Doing Nazgrim tonight, does anyone know if SEF gives the boss rage during protection stance?

[Pandapuncher86]

Well just tried whacking a dummy for a bit to try out Chi Brew, my rule was to do 100M damage each time, using only self buffs and food/flask.

With Ascension and 7k Haste, rest Crit: 224k DPS and 218k DPS.

With Chi Brew, 9.4k Haste (most i can currently get out of my gear, I will take it higher), 9k Crit: 228k DPS and 244k DPS.

My second attempt with Chi Brew was a lot better as I was changing when I was using it etc.

I know I'll be running with Chi Brew from now on, just need to find some more haste from somewhere.

[Deleted]

Doing Nazgrim tonight, does anyone know if SEF gives the boss rage during protection stance?

Pets/Guardians don't give him rage.

[Merciliz]

Pets/Guardians don't give him rage.

Yes you can use it during Denfensive stance with out causing rage

[Hinalover]

Also there's nothing magical about 3 chi every 6 seconds, that's just something you made up. Each additional BoK past simply keeping RJW and RSK on CD does the same whether you're filling every GCD you have or if it's just one per fight.

Maybe so, but the point still stands that Ascension allows for RJW to be used ON COOLDOWN while still doing normal single target dps rotation. The Chi Brew change does NOT allow for RJW to be ON COOLDOWN unless at very high haste values, but to buff RJW's damage by 60%, at a much lower single target rotation dps. If anything the change allows for a choice in AoE circumstances. If you need sustained AoE (Protectors), go Ascension. If you need Burst AoE (Tortos [if killing bats]), go Chi Brew.

[Totaltotemic]

Maybe so, but the point still stands that Ascension allows for RJW to be used ON COOLDOWN while still doing normal single target dps rotation. The Chi Brew change does NOT allow for RJW to be ON COOLDOWN unless at very high haste values, but to buff RJW's damage by 60%, at a much lower single target rotation dps. If anything the change allows for a choice in AoE circumstances. If you need sustained AoE (Protectors), go Ascension. If you need Burst AoE (Tortos [if killing bats]), go Chi Brew.

I'm confused as to what makes you think you can't use RSK and RJW on CD normally even without Ascension, I'm pretty sure I gave the exact very small amount of haste needed for that. There should be no difference whatsoever in RSK and RJW uptime whether you're using Ascension, Chi Brew, Power Strikes, or none of those talents. If there is, that's a mechanical problem rather than a min/max setup problem.