Holy Paladin vs. Proving Grounds

[Varabently]

Managed to finish gold the other day, thanks for the help! I may try my hand at endless one of these days.

[Deleted]

I registered today to thank you for this guide, but also to hopefully improve it.

I feel that glyph of divine plea needs to be near-mandatory, because it returns far more mana overall with the glyph than it does without. Regardless of whether it has the glyph or not, it will always return a minimum of 12% of your mana; in order for the gains WITHOUT the glyph to be better, you would need to have approximately 19.8k spirit. There's absolutely no way anyone in scaled down 463 gear is going to have 19.8k unbuffed spirit, making the 36k every minute (72k every 2 mins) far, far superior to 135x3% of spirit every 2 mins (which for most people will be in the region of 40k in scaled down gear).

Just my 2 cents , otherwise a fantastic guide

[Lovestar]

I feel that glyph of divine plea needs to be near-mandatory, because it returns far more mana overall with the glyph than it does without. Regardless of whether it has the glyph or not, it will always return a minimum of 12% of your mana; in order for the gains WITHOUT the glyph to be better, you would need to have approximately 19.8k spirit. There's absolutely no way anyone in scaled down 463 gear is going to have 19.8k unbuffed spirit, making the 36k every minute (72k every 2 mins) far, far superior to 135x3% of spirit every 2 mins (which for most people will be in the region of 40k in scaled down gear).

Hi, I'm glad you're finding it helpful!

I don't think the glyph works the way you think it does, though. While it reduces the cd of Divine Plea by 50%, it also reduces the mana returned by 50%. Unglyphed, you will gain 36,000 mana every 2 minutes (ie, the 12% minimum) at Proving Grounds gear levels. Glyphed, you gain 18,000 mana every 60 seconds (ie, 6% of maximum).

The glyph doesn't change how the mana is returned (it's always the greater of X% Spirit or X% total mana), only how frequently.

For completeness (it never hurts to verify, right?) I just tested it, casting Divine Plea on cooldown for 6 minutes, both unglyphed and then glyphed. Either way, I ended up with a total mana return of 108,000 after 6 minutes.

[PosPosPos]

Hi, I'm glad you're finding it helpful!

I don't think the glyph works the way you think it does, though. While it reduces the cd of Divine Plea by 50%, it also reduces the mana returned by 50%. Unglyphed, you will gain 36,000 mana every 2 minutes (ie, the 12% minimum) at Proving Grounds gear levels. Glyphed, you gain 18,000 mana every 60 seconds (ie, 6% of maximum).

The glyph doesn't change how the mana is returned (it's always the greater of X% Spirit or X% total mana), only how frequently.

For completeness (it never hurts to verify, right?) I just tested it, casting Divine Plea on cooldown for 6 minutes, both unglyphed and then glyphed. Either way, I ended up with a total mana return of 108,000 after 6 minutes.

The whole point of running the glyph is that it is a significant net gain over an odd period of time rather than an even period of time.

[Lovestar]

The whole point of running the glyph is that it is a significant net gain over an odd period of time rather than an even period of time.

If you read the post I was replying to, he was saying the glyph upped the gain to 72k every 2 minutes, which is (unfortunately) completely false. It does not increase the total amount awarded by DP over a 2-minute period.

I updated the DP glyph note slightly to take your own, separate point into account, though.

[nightfalls]

The whole point of running the glyph is that it is a significant net gain over an odd period of time rather than an even period of time.

If anything I'd say the glyph is better for PvP than any sort of PvE content whatsoever, this of course implies that you actually have a space for it in PvP.

[Simulacrum]

The whole point of running the glyph is that it is a significant net gain over an odd period of time rather than an even period of time.

...

I updated the DP glyph note slightly to take your own, separate point into account, though.

How will the glyph case you to regenerate more mana (at "odd periods of time", or at *any* time)? Never mind be a "significant" gain? I mean... how can you read the tooltip and think that it will provide a mana gain? 50% less mana for 50% less cooldown... sooo on first use, unglyphed will regenerate 100% and glyphed 50%... glyphed at that point has provided significantly less mana than base. Then a whole minute will pass before the glyphed version even reaches the same as base. Then another minute passes, and base once again bypasses glyphed by giving you 100%+100% regen, while the glyphed has provided you with 50%+50%+50%... The glyph will never make you regenerate more mana, and half the time it will make you regenerate less.

It will also consume twice as many GCDs, which means that the glyphed DP will result in even less mana, because it is twice as likely to sit there off cooldown, not providing any average mana regen by not ticking its cooldown down, while I'm too busy to spend a GCD casting it.

It's a self-nerf. I don't understand why anyone would ever use the glyph... except maybe if you were, like, really worried about DP being dispelled or something, which is obviously not a pve-thing.

[Lovestar]

Ummm... yep, gonna agree with Cattlehunter after the running the numbers. Previous assumptions weren't taking into account the head start that unglyphed DP has, which causes it to retain lead in basically every scenario except one in which 2-minute DP gets dispelled or cancelled before it can tick.

Since that's no danger in PGs, there seems to be no way for the DP glyph to provide a net mana boost, only a mana redistribution, and it has the potential to be a loss if timing works against you. So I'm going to edit out any references to this from the glyph commentary.

Scenario 1 — 5 minute fight
	Glyphed	Unglyphed
0m30s:	18000	36000
1m30s:	36000	36000
2m30s:	54000	72000
3m30s:	72000	72000
4m30s:	90000	108000
5m00s:	Fight over.

Scenario 2 — 6 minute fight
	Glyphed	Unglyphed
0m30s:	18000	36000
1m30s:	36000	36000
2m30s:	54000	72000
3m30s:	72000	72000
4m30s:	90000	108000
5m30s:	108000	108000
6m00s:	Fight over.

Scenario 3 — 6 minute fight (alternate)
	Glyphed	Unglyphed
0m00s:	18000	36000
1m00s:	36000	36000
2m00s:	54000	72000
3m00s:	72000	72000
4m00s:	90000	108000
5m00s:	108000	108000
6m00s:	126000	144000
	Fight over.

Same result no matter what you set the interval to. For fun, let's see what happens if the first unglyphed DP gets dispelled before it can tick:

Scenario 4 — DP dispelled
	Glyphed	Unglyphed
0m30s:	0	0
1m30s:	18000	0
2m30s:	36000	36000
3m30s:	54000	36000
4m30s:	72000	72000
5m00s:	Fight over.

And if you're somehow unfortunate enough to have one DP dispelled every 2 minutes (really getting contrived now, haha):

Scenario 5 — DP dispelled every 2m
	Glyphed	Unglyphed
0m30s:	0	0
1m30s:	18000	0
2m30s:	0	0
3m30s:	36000	0
4m30s:	0	0
5m00s:	Fight over.

Overall, a pretty weird glyph. Or maybe we're still missing something?

[Eckhardt]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed in this thread. Been struggling a bit with making Gold, will give it another shot this week with the advice.

[Lovestar]

Between the linked Wowhead guide, proliferation of YouTube videos, the info here, and the general benefit of a couple weeks trial+error, I think this guide is pretty much in an adequate state. I never even intended to make a guide guide anyway, I just wanted to discuss different tips & tricks, but since people have found it useful I've been happy to maintain it.

Anyway, I'm going to pretty much consider it "done" from my perspective, even though it's not really done. Basically, if anyone has:

• Requests
• Suggestions
• Critiques
• New tips/tricks
• etc. etc.

then please reply and I'll be happy to keep updating.

Otherwise, I think PGs are pretty much under control for most people at this point. I was mostly just concerned with tips for breaking Gold & Endless 30. If someone really dedicated to PG'ing their Holy Pallies to like, wave 100 or something, wants to take over the thread and give it more hardcore tips and guidance, I'd also be happy to pass the reigns.

So, yeah. Keep having fun!

[Hainiryuun]

Made it to wave 55 earlier today, basically throwing out standard thought for Holy Paladins. Reforged Spirit > Haste > Mastery > Crit. Spirit/Haste gems in yellow sockets, spirit/int in red, and straight spirit in blue. Flask Spirit and 300 spirit food. Decided to not use Divinity, because it felt like the 2 min extra to the CD wasn't worth the 10% mana return. Too many times I would run into the NPCs not doing what I expected and having to pop extra CD's that I normally would save, that could have been prevented if it weren't for the extra 2 mins; I would commonly run into that issue on wave 2/12/22 etc.

Took Speed of Light, FoJ, EF, Clemency, DP, LH for talents. PotI, Hand of Sac, and Blinding Light for glyphs. Unless you think you really, really need the extra LoH, I wouldn't bother with Unbreakable Spirit. I used it for a ton of attempts and found that I could never really take full advantage of it without feeling like I was wasting it.

[Simulacrum]

Made wave 75 a week or so ago, and I guess people are getting bored with PGs as, at least according to wowprogress, I've been sitting at the #1 spot for hpaladins since. As of this post, obviously.

I did fraps the waves from 60, and I figured I'd upload the video since, well, gotta justify all this recording of my gameplay I'm doing somehow, I guess.

I do kind of dislike the PG videos where people provide no context to what they're doing, though, so I decided to add some comments of my own to describe what I was doing, and in retrospect I may have gone overboard with it, but I spent like 2 freaking days fighting with sony vegas before it finally rendered a non-corrupted video (this one still has some corruption at around the 9 minute mark), so I guess that's how it'll stay. I must be using that program wrong somehow.

Anyway, here it is, if anyone's still interested!



Feel free to make comments if you are. I haven't really been very analytical about my approach, I just sort of stumbled into it. The only thing I've planned out was the HA usage. Pretty sure I could've made it much further if I hadn't fucked up wave 74 so dramatically. A little sad to see no paladins reaching the 100+ waves... but I don't think I'll be the one to get there. Just takes too much time to reach those later waves. Maybe if they add an option to start from your last 10th wave, or something...

[solf]

cleared 42 waves today when i went for the 30 achivement using this cd rotation, figured it might help someone
glyphs: sac, FoL, blinding light
trinket: Contemplation of Chi-Ji (for big DP's) and empty fruitbarrel

stun as much as possible but be sure to have it up for where it's noted.

wave
1: -
2: holy avenger -> sac
3: - hp for burrower
4: stun > HA > sac
5:stun>sac (save hp for burrower) + goak if needed (burrow on tank)
6:HA
7: stun>stun + wings
8:Ha>devo aura + interrupt +stun (speed if needed)
9: stun>goak>hp för burrower
10: -

[nightfalls]

Feel free to make comments if you are. I haven't really been very analytical about my approach, I just sort of stumbled into it. The only thing I've planned out was the HA usage. Pretty sure I could've made it much further if I hadn't fucked up wave 74 so dramatically. A little sad to see no paladins reaching the 100+ waves... but I don't think I'll be the one to get there. Just takes too much time to reach those later waves. Maybe if they add an option to start from your last 10th wave, or something...

It should let you start from 20 waves before your "best 10th" - so if you complete Wave 30, you can start at Wave 11. That will set you back significantly enough if you fail on a high wave, but also means that you cannot "crawl" your way for the Title; getting the Title would require you complete Wave 30 starting at Wave 1 (as it should!)

[meroko]

Excellent guide, I managed to do it with Selfless healer though, I found the mana it saves was far more worth it than using EF

[Iltareh]

cleared 42 waves today when i went for the 30 achivement using this cd rotation, figured it might help someone
glyphs: sac, FoL, blinding light
trinket: Contemplation of Chi-Ji (for big DP's) and empty fruitbarrel

stun as much as possible but be sure to have it up for where it's noted.

wave
1: -
2: holy avenger -> sac
3: - hp for burrower
4: stun > HA > sac
5:stun>sac (save hp for burrower) + goak if needed (burrow on tank)
6:HA
7: stun>stun + wings
8:Ha>devo aura + interrupt +stun (speed if needed)
9: stun>goak>hp för burrower
10: -

Contemplation has no effect on dp. short dura spirit increases don't effect it.

[Sunnydee]

i got no clue how paladins can get 30 waves as holy. its beyond me.. trying to get gold done. weak heals cuz shitloads of spirit is needed, basically no haste, and no good aoe healing since they tend to spread like retards on mopeds.. should i just gear up an alt for this crap instead? im only after achievs. no score ranking whatsoever.,.

[Pasture]

i got no clue how paladins can get 30 waves as holy. its beyond me.. trying to get gold done. weak heals cuz shitloads of spirit is needed, basically no haste, and no good aoe healing since they tend to spread like retards on mopeds.. should i just gear up an alt for this crap instead? im only after achievs. no score ranking whatsoever.,.

Or you could read the four pages of comments here explaining how to get Endless 30 as a Holy Paladin. It's very much doable. It's as much about stuns and positioning as it is about the healing.

[Obsession]

Excellent guide, I managed to do it with Selfless healer though, I found the mana it saves was far more worth it than using EF

I haven't done it since September, but I can say this: It doesn't save mana compared to EF blanketing, especially if a Hive-singer casts while the raid is blanketed. Judgement costs about 1/3rd of DL so it equals out to about the same mana cost but EF isn't an additional GCD. 5x EF is really efficient tank healing through Beacon and gives good mana regeneration time at the end of waves you use Holy Avenger for.

i got no clue how paladins can get 30 waves as holy. its beyond me.. trying to get gold done. weak heals cuz shitloads of spirit is needed, basically no haste, and no good aoe healing since they tend to spread like retards on mopeds.. should i just gear up an alt for this crap instead? im only after achievs. no score ranking whatsoever.,.

Any specific questions? :x

[Guyon]

I did the 10 waves 1 year ago (i think i reached wave 15) then i didn't really bother with the PGs. I remember tho that doing the Challenge modes was easier than this, back then.
I am gonna try to make the 30 waves now, you reckon i shall go with spirit gear or normal raid 577 gear? Or mixed gear? :v
Thank you