Holy Paladin 5.4

[bouchbagfett]

Would anyone be willing to tell me what the most recent spell power coefficient(s) for EF might be?

The eternal flame hot is 8.19%. The direct heal is 49%. But you will also have to add the 5% multiplier from Seal of Insight and a 50% multiplier from Holy Insight to the total heal.

Edit: Forgot to add the part about the number of ticks of EF hot. I got this formula from Totemspot (that guy is a real numbers pro):

=Round((30/3)*(1+Haste%),0)

[Lackjester]

The eternal flame hot is 8.19%. The direct heal is 49%. But you will also have to add the 5% multiplier from Seal of Insight and a 50% multiplier from Holy Insight to the total heal.

Edit: Forgot to add the part about the number of ticks of EF hot. I got this formula from Totemspot (that guy is a real numbers pro):

=Round((30/3)*(1+Haste%),0)

Thank you sir, that's very helpful.

[Deleted]

Hey, can anyone give some advice for healing H: Thok the Bloodthirsty.
What is better 3k haste break point and FULL mastery or Intelect? 3 Holy power and LoD or Eternal Flame?

[Freia]

Hey, can anyone give some advice for healing H: Thok the Bloodthirsty.
What is better 3k haste break point and FULL mastery or Intelect? 3 Holy power and LoD or Eternal Flame?

Selfless Healer, full mastery gems reforge all spirit to haste or mastery.

[bouchbagfett]

I put this chart together to help be decide what spec I was going to do for Heroic Thok:



90 Seconds is about how long phase 1 lasts if you push to 30 stacks. I plan on 18sec of that with Holy Avenger up so the rotation changes a little. With EF you lose part of the last 5 EF’s you cast so I figured that in. To maintain the rotation you need to make sure all of your casts are under 1.7sec to not get interrupted. Thus if you are running EF with less than 45% haste you will need a personal buff up or you have to skip a hard cast Holy Radiance for HP generation. In practice the EF execution will not be perfect so we may miss out on some HP generation. Selfless healer has the advantage of being very simple and largely instants. Total output does not figure in CD usage other than Holy Avenger but I assume they will all be used and used equally. Not a huge difference in output but if you can nail the rotation EF will be more healing and the HoT is certainly helpful for keeping kitters topped during poison phase.

BTW: SH output is 10k spirit full 2nd stats. EF is 45% EF build with 16k spirit.

BTTW: If you are going SH Mastery is your best 2nd stat. Worth about 90% of 1 intellect point. Source (me).

[nightfalls]

I don't think the 6% is worth it considering that you:

1) Have no mana problems with SH versus potential mana problems with EF, sometimes a considerable amount.
2) A large amount of your EF is Beacon, which can be made up for with external tank CD usage.
3) You're in practice and esp. during progress going to lose way more than 6% by getting kicked.
4) There are other ways to keep kiters topped.

Granted there are ways to mitigate the damage to EF also, but point being... I still see it as a relatively poor bargain given the fight.

Then and again, in 10 man, in general I find EF to be a stronger talent overall, and it does seem most people in that division use it.

[Deleted]

Yay Garrosh down! HCs next week! Did him second try tonight...after spending two full nights with several 4% wipes...
Changed the Shaman to our 558 Disc priest...and some minor setup improvements and mana instantly stopped beeing a problem, healing was much much better in each and every situation...

45%H, 35%M, 14k Spirit worked well...
I'll start HCs with the exact same stats and fall back to 35% if mana is an issue...
Anyone doing the first HC bosses with the above stats? If so whom are you healing with?

[Deleted]

I put this chart together to help be decide what spec I was going to do for Heroic Thok:



90 Seconds is about how long phase 1 lasts if you push to 30 stacks. I plan on 18sec of that with Holy Avenger up so the rotation changes a little. With EF you lose part of the last 5 EF’s you cast so I figured that in. To maintain the rotation you need to make sure all of your casts are under 1.7sec to not get interrupted. Thus if you are running EF with less than 45% haste you will need a personal buff up or you have to skip a hard cast Holy Radiance for HP generation. In practice the EF execution will not be perfect so we may miss out on some HP generation. Selfless healer has the advantage of being very simple and largely instants. Total output does not figure in CD usage other than Holy Avenger but I assume they will all be used and used equally. Not a huge difference in output but if you can nail the rotation EF will be more healing and the HoT is certainly helpful for keeping kitters topped during poison phase.

BTW: SH output is 10k spirit full 2nd stats. EF is 45% EF build with 16k spirit.

BTTW: If you are going SH Mastery is your best 2nd stat. Worth about 90% of 1 intellect point. Source (me).

You might also want to consider the advantages a smart heal gives you over a hot.On Thok a very minimal amount of your LOD would ever overheal and it is granted that the 6 targets it does heal will benefit the most from it,moreover you're putting up (small) absorbs to soak some of the damage for the next incoming damage spikes while with EF you're only hotting up individual people that doesn't account for any personal CDs e.g healing might get wasted,you also wouldn't have the benefit of as many absorbs as you would with LOD and the playstyle of SS fits Thok better than EF because you spend less time casting,the boost to your other smart heal,HR which also wouldn't largely overheal and would give you the benefit of an absorb makes SS all the more reliable talent

[bouchbagfett]

You might also want to consider...

All that was considered in the calculations. I didn't post my full work sheet but in accounts for reduced over healing on LoD and accounts for mastery shields and beacon transfers. My over-heal numbers were pulled from the top 20'ish parses on 10man heroic thok. 12 EF / 7 SH.

SS over EF? The point about the use of more instant casts is great. But your throughput will be terrible if you just SS and HS. You will need to hard cast HR to get LoD's off. 1 SS is about 75% of an EF even with no over healing on SS.

[Deleted]

Spreadsheets are nice and all but it does not take into account how this fight actually works. When the healing is needed the most EF will be mostly useless hell you wont even be able to sustain a Holy Avenger rotation without ever stopping your cast in the last phase with EF.

I suppose you could argue that it is not relevant anymore because guilds should have enough dps to never see the fire phase, I mean my guild barely saw the fire phase in the first week of progression but then again a lot of guilds have messy first kills and some players are expected to be dead and thus the raid dps also lower.

Either way SH on Thok is for people who want to actually kill the boss and EF is for the people who want to pad meters and rank.

[Deleted]

That was exactly the point I was trying to make.If you're looking at the HPS alone,you're not looking at the full picture I think bouch misunderstood me.

[Theholypally]

Either way SH on Thok is for people who want to actually kill the boss and EF is for the people who want to pad meters and rank.

Yeah, no.

Just because YOU like SH doesn't mean that SH is the only thing that will allow you to effectively kill the boss.

Frankly, SH sucks, if you like it and can utilize it good for you.

[nightfalls]

Spreadsheets are nice and all but it does not take into account how this fight actually works.

Agreed pretty much with this, and no not just because of this fight or this comment, but I've noticed throughout multiple instances.

Yeah, no. Just because YOU like SH doesn't mean that SH is the only thing that will allow you to effectively kill the boss. Frankly, SH sucks, if you like it and can utilize it good for you.

I think I'll believe the person who's actually killed the boss, not the person who's trying to be smart but isn't even close to pulling it let alone killing it.

[Theholypally]

Agreed pretty much with this, and no not just because of this fight or this comment, but I've noticed throughout multiple instances.



I think I'll believe the person who's actually killed the boss, not the person who's trying to be smart but isn't even close to pulling it let alone killing it.

You can believe whatever you like, that's the beauty of it.

Don't expect to be taken seriously though. If you honestly believe that statement just because he's killed it with the talent (lol), then i'll gladly ignore (and if anyone else is smart, they will too) any other advice or information you try to give around here because it's obviously a joke.

He killed the boss with selfless healer, means he's right and that's the only talent that will help score a kill? Nope. Holy paladins have killed that boss with EF and with SS...doesn't mean those are the only options. lol.

- - - Updated - - -

ROFL speak for yourself. I don't know a single person on this forum that actually cares for what you write.



I mean... I, personally, don't really give a damn who's giving what statement, I killed the boss with Selfless Healer also. Either way, I think the only person a smart one would ignore here is you.

Whats amusing to me is that you actually think you are of some importance around here, i know i'm just a regular viewer and don't pretend to be anything else rofl

I also know when statements are made just because one person has had success with one talent, or spec, and thus believes its the only way to do it...just because they did it.

If you actually believe that you are as plugged into this community as you think you are, then you should know how misleading statements like that are. What he said isn't true, its just that simple. You can pretend to be some kind of celebrity on here (although even celebrity is stretching it out of bounds) but lets be realistic, do you honestly, seriously, believe that or are you just saying that because you killed the boss with it?

I'm not saying i don't see the advantage of selfless healer on thok...i'm asking how do you and pacer think its the only obvious solution to kill the boss and EF is a waste and "only for people who want to rank?" lol.

[nightfalls]

I deleted my earlier post for a reason since I, at the end, didn't believe it was adding to discussion and I believe I said all that was needed to be said on this person.

So I'll just repeat what I said earlier, you haven't even pulled Heroic Thok and are far from doing so, and only seem to get around to actual bosses that aren't trivial when they are 20% or more nerfed. Why should anyone care what you have to say whatsoever regarding either SH (or EF for that matter) as they are applied to pre-nerf, non-trivial content?

Frankly, SH sucks.

What really amuses me is that you are actually giving opinions. You're less than a regular viewer, you're someone who has zero credibility but still trying to tell others how to do content.

...

I also know when statements are made just because one person has had success with one talent, or spec, and thus believes its the only way to do it...just because they did it... I'm not saying i don't see the advantage of selfless healer on thok...i'm asking how do you and pacer think its the only obvious solution to kill the boss and EF is a waste and "only for people who want to rank?" lol.

Perhaps unlike you we've pulled the boss, and other actual (not first 3 or 20% nerfed versions or whatever) bosses using both talents (or I have, I'm not sure if Pacer went with SH only since pull 1 but I'm willing to believe he has given both talents a shot at least on some of the harder fights). Herp derp?

[Theholypally]

I deleted my earlier post for a reason since I, at the end, didn't believe it was adding to discussion and I believe I said all that was needed to be said on this person.

So I'll just repeat what I said earlier, you haven't even pulled Heroic Thok and are far from doing so, and only seem to get around to actual bosses that aren't trivial when they are 20% or more nerfed. Why should anyone care what you have to say whatsoever regarding either SH (or EF for that matter) as they are applied to pre-nerf, non-trivial content?



What really amuses me is that you are actually giving opinions.

I have no need to delete mine, as this person clearly isn't grasping the concept. This isn't about what i have killed or haven't killed, it's about you and your "just because i killed it, its right" attitude. The people reading this aren't going to go "oh, he killed it, he must be right this is the only talent!"

You are giving biased opinions based on your own experience. Let me recap: healers kill this boss on heroic using EF, SS, and SH...what makes YOU think that his statement is correct. Obviously other healers have done this, way before you or me, what makes you think your opinion is actually valid then? Just because you've killed the boss suddenly makes that talent the only go-to?

These are the questions, and unlike you who seem to try to deviate with feeble attempts at insulting my raiding experience, which is far more extensive then ToT i assure you lol, i'm just focusing on you and Pacer and you're undying belief in SH. Try to stick to the topic this time.

[Lackjester]

I think I'll believe the person who's actually killed the boss, not the person who's trying to be smart but isn't even close to pulling it let alone killing it.

I deleted my earlier post for a reason since I, at the end, didn't believe it was adding to discussion and I believe I said all that was needed to be said on this person.

So I'll just repeat what I said earlier, you haven't even pulled Heroic Thok and are far from doing so, and only seem to get around to actual bosses that aren't trivial when they are 20% or more nerfed. Why should anyone care what you have to say whatsoever regarding either SH (or EF for that matter) as they are applied to pre-nerf, non-trivial content?

What really amuses me is that you are actually giving opinions. You're less than a regular viewer, you're someone who has zero credibility but still trying to tell others how to do content.
...

Perhaps unlike you we've pulled the boss, and other actual (not first 3 or 20% nerfed versions or whatever) bosses using both talents (or I have, I'm not sure if Pacer went with SH only since pull 1 but I'm willing to believe he has given both talents a shot at least on some of the harder fights). Herp derp?

I can't believe just how disrespectful you can be to others. To be blunt with you, I think you're often (and right now) the only one "trying to tell others how to do content."

Your original post on the matter (#408) seems very solid to me, though. More of that, less of the stuff I've just quoted, please.

[nightfalls]

Last note on relevance: I don't typically care that much if posters (who try to sound smart) have actually killed the boss, but those who haven't even pulled it, in my humble opinion, really have little room to sound like "experts."

That said I also do not care if people are like World First! this or that in Lich King or Scarab Lord or whatever, if you haven't raided at a high level in MOP you will probably be out of touch with what progression on MOP bosses is like if only due to class/role changes or stuff. A returning World First! Everything! Wrath player could be surprised to find out we're no longer "tank only" healers. Even a returning Realm First! Sha of Fear person coming back in 5.4 from 5.1 will notice a bunch of changes (no more EF shield blanket what?!)

---

And as Lackjester "kindly" pointed out, reasons for using talents have been given throughout this thread not too long ago; I see no need to requote everything that's been said.

[Healtuff]

Well just to add to your point, if you're more inclined to listen to somebody who has killed the specified boss because they've actually tested the different methods being discussed, then that's fine.

If you're just listening to someone because you're assuming that someone who is progressed to a certain point is better than a less progressed player, I think you might have some flawed logic there.

How does the old adage go? "Put enough monkeys in a room with a typewriter they'll produce Shakespeare," right? As long as you have some semblance of competence, a stable raid group, and a usable computer, your progress should directly correlate to your hours spent raiding.

[nightfalls]

Well just to add to your point, if you're more inclined to listen to somebody who has killed the specified boss because they've actually tested the different methods being discussed, then that's fine.

Yeah, I think that's a point worth noting. It was also a bit of a diversion and probably wrong of me to bring up in the first place without making this clear, but Thok is indeed one of those fights you really have to pull to understand (it also jumps at you even if you're used to Flex/Normal version just due to its sheer intimidation factor, the AoE he casts will hit for ~75% of your raid's HP).

It's one thing to have a good grasp of your class abilities (many non-raiders even do), but another to understand how they work in the context of a difficult fight, which many people simply cannot do unless they actually attempt them.

Looking back, perhaps I went off on that tangent because there was nothing else for me to actually respond to. I didn't find any arguments other than Bouch's spreadsheet for not going with SH (which I already replied to), only personal attacks and "smart-ass" remark.

...

Back on Topic (which by the way was talents for Heroic Thok the Bloodthirsty, not some assumed fixation on talenting SH): Though I had a terrible raid tonight myself on the boss, I'm even more convinced after several pulls that SH will be the way to go at least on 25 man. It is far more reliable given the fight mechanics than EF (which is good for progression) and scales well with mastery. The down phases allow for mana regeneration.

Having tried both talents, EF will work if you are exceptionally good at timing it (1.7 seconds) and willing to throw in CS, but I don't see it as more superior. I do believe Aladya used EF on his guild's WF kill (their logs are not public, but at least I didn't catch the LoD animation from him in their video).

Also: If you're done with progression and are "farming" the boss completely and only really looking for ranks, typically unless you underheal farm mastery will be the way to go which scales even more with SH.


P.S: Most posters here to my knowledge are 25 man raiders. It's worth noting Bouch does 10m and his spreadsheets are largely based on 10m. Most people will take EF over SH in general situations in 10 man groups, including myself.