Casuals > Raiders, when it comes to content - misconception

[Catblob]

The thousands of players who not only follow the progression of the top guilds, but also could tell you many player names from these guild's rosters, seems to prove you wrong.

Thousands of players within a game that hosts millions is still a tiny clique. As Blizzard has stated before, the number of players that post on message boards like MMO-Champ is minuscule compared to the number that don't.

[judgementofantonidas]

It has been disputed look at the guy,
The only thing hardcore players are good for is testing the game. Thats it. The majority of truly casual players would not give a damn. Hardcore players put that extra effort in reporting bugs to the devs and testing the new content out. They are a great help in that respect. But other than that its not really an indicator of a great game. A game can be great with out being hard.

I personally enjoy difficult content when I get the time to do it.

The amount of fans in the game for these hard core guilds is probably far few than we think. Theres no exact numbers so its up in the air to how many.

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Hes probably not wrong it is most likely a tiny amount of players who follow it. There are millions more players out there.

a tiny fraction of players do not follow the top guilds because they are the top guilds
a larger but yet small fraction do follow the top guilds to try to overtake the top guilds
an even larger portion follow the top guilds because they avidly want to learn to do it right

and then there are the casuals.

[khalltusk]

a tiny fraction of players do not follow the top guilds because they are the top guilds
a larger but yet small fraction do follow the top guilds to try to overtake the top guilds
an even larger portion follow the top guilds because they avidly want to learn to do it right

and then there are the casuals.

But the people following top guilds are most likely still a minority compared. Unless you have proof of it?

[Monteverdi]

Without hardcore players, the army of casuals out there would not have resources like Ask Mr Robot, Noxxic, Icy Veins, Elitist Jerks, etc. They would not have many of the mods they also rely on. (Note - I'm speaking of the casuals who are at endgame, not the number of casuals who simply level characters - of which they are a very large number. It seems to me that these leveling players don't factor in to this discussion too much.)

Without the casual players, the hardcore players out there would literally not have a World of Warcraft to play, because it is this huge number of casual players who pay the bulk of the server maintenance costs, developer salaries, etc. These casual players also drive the player economy by bringing in raw materials to the Auction House.

It's symbiosis - both types of players need eachother for the game to be what it is. Does Blizz sometimes cater more to one group than the other? Absolutely - and it's true they should try to balance that out more so that there's something for everybody - but the animosity between casuals ad hardcores makes very little sense when you step back to look at it.

[anaxie]

Any random group of WoW players is liable to contain 50% assholes. I don't really care, it's just how the internet works. The only difference is that nowadays you're not dependant upon a small exclusionary little community in order to see any gear/content above five-man level, and oh boy does it ever make some of you raiders mad that you're no longer the supreme arbiters of other peoples fun.

Because that one guy? The guy sitting around making shitposts about how Blizzard should remove LFR because it's making his epics feel less special? Fuck that guy. I am going to drink his tears forever, because the odds that he's ever going to get what he wants are zero-point-zero percent.

I love it when I see them talking to one another on here, desperately trying to convince each other that LFR is dead and about to be removed because they wiped in it a bunch of times in the first couple weeks of a new raid, like that's unusual. I love the desperation, the delusion, the grim clinging to hope that someday Blizzard will decide they hate money, fall on their sword, and announce that they're taking the game back to Burning Crusade and everyone who doesn't like it can quit.

It's my Ultima Online glory days all over again. Back when that game started, you used to be able to gank anyone anywhere, take every bit of their shit, and leave them naked in the woods. Obviously PVP got nerfed after a couple of years, and god did it make the hardcore killer types mad. You'd see them on the forums for years and years afterward, inventing ridiculously stupid imaginary reasons why their tiny group was totally vital to the game's success, trying to take credit when enough time passed and subscriptions eventually dropped, and hyping up every piece of shit game they hoped would cater to them.

Ten years later and most of those people were playing on illegal free servers, because they were a tiny little group with exorbitant demands that inconvenienced everyone else, and no real game that needed money wanted them.

Sound familiar? I am gonna sit here with my popcorn and watch history repeat itself.

Bro your's never going to get my gear 580ilvl> 530 RiP. I don't care if you get to do a wipefest LFR that takes longer then clearing the raid on heroic, I don't care if you have to buy Heroic boss mounts from me, I don't care because you are blinded into thinking you are seeing the content. Really all you get is a training dummy with a boss skin.

[khalltusk]

Without hardcore players, the army of casuals out there would not have resources like Ask Mr Robot, Noxxic, Icy Veins, Elitist Jerks, etc. They would not have many of the mods they also rely on. (Note - I'm speaking of the casuals who are at endgame, not the number of casuals who simply level characters - of which they are a very large number. It seems to me that these leveling players don't factor in to this discussion too much.)

Without the casual players, the hardcore players out there would literally not have a World of Warcraft to play, because it is this huge number of casual players who pay the bulk of the server maintenance costs, developer salaries, etc. These casual players also drive the player economy by bringing in raw materials to the Auction House.

It's symbiosis - both types of players need eachother for the game to be what it is. Does Blizz sometimes cater more to one group than the other? Absolutely - and it's true they should try to balance that out more so that there's something for everybody - but the animosity between casuals ad hardcores makes very little sense when you step back to look at it.

I fully agree. You have the players who are most likely really into the game and who brought us all these great sites and tools. and then you have the masses of players who fund the game and with out them would not be quite the same game.

[Deleted]

I fully agree. You have the players who are most likely really into the game and who brought us all these great sites and tools. and then you have the masses of players who fund the game and with out them would not be quite the same game.

Yeah, it might still be playable without a degree in wowology and a bookmarked list of youtube vids, 3rd party reforging sites and several years experience. lol

[Monteverdi]

It's not really animosity between these two factions of the playerbase really. It's closer to being between the bad players, who refuse to get better but want to do everything, and the normal mode heroes that think they are God's gift to WoW.

An actual casual has no problem with things like Heroic only bosses and such. Just as an actual Hardcore raider has no issue with something like LFR. They just get on with what they want to do in the game. Whether it's spending a couple of hours wiping on a heroic boss until it's finally down or just spending a couple of hours on leveling your pets through Pet Battles.

There are more kinds of players than just the seemingly loosely defined Casual and Hardcore.

Hell, you could make the argument that Hardcore players, specifically addon developers, YouTube guide makers, dataminers and so on took all the mystery out of WoW by giving players too much information. When was the last time players just went into a raid and figured stuff out for themselves and didn't get told by their RL to watch a video on the fight that gave them all the tactics?

You make a very good point, sir

[Deleted]

Let's look at the facts here. Hardcore raiders and raiders in general are more than likely, dedicated to the game and their progression, meaning they are subscribed for a majority of the year and most likely 12 months a year. That's about roughly $180 per dedicated raider. When you compare this to some casual players who are subscribed 1-3 months in a year, regardless of the content blizzard makes for them; tell me who is making more income for Blizzard on a per person basis ?

Your logic is flawed right there. You can be subscribed for most of the year and still be a casual player just doing dungeons, hunting achievements, leveling alts, you name it.

Also, you don't take into account that the vast majority of players are casual and only a small percentage are hardcore raiders. Which group do you think is making more income for Blizzard IN TOTAL? Yes, not per person but in total. It's the casual group because their sheer numbers mean Blizzard makes more money on them than on a small group of hardcore raiders.

[khalltusk]

Yeah, it might still be playable without a degree in wowology and a bookmarked list of youtube vids, 3rd party reforging sites and several years experience. lol

You would be surprised how many people do get on with out such things shocking as it is :P.

I've no doubt that the people who have brought us great addons and sites over the years have helped this game in a huge way.

[melodramocracy]

Hardcore content is a moving goalpost definition at best. You will always have a percentage of players pursuing the toughest tasks, and that percentage will always be small. The names might change (and they certainly have), but nothing else will.

I realize that this fact brings tears of anguish to folks who are simply oblivious to how human nature works, but oh well.

[Ronduwil]

That's never been disputed... why does this keep coming up?
Only a handfull of people get to play in the NFL but millions of people love to get caught in the hype.

The NFL exists for the sake of spectators. There is no National Raiding League for WoW because no one would watch. You also don't have teams of manufacturers especially making equipment solely for use by NFL players. This analogy completely fails on multiple levels. Hardcore Raiding in WoW has nothing in common with the NFL.

What do you think the NFL is? A bunch of casual athletes?
I know it's immeasurable to see how far these players influence the hype and involvement from fans and viewers but I'm of the opinion that without an NFL and "hardcore" players it's a sign of something bad.

Then the game needs to be redesigned to be spectator-friendly. American Football came about when two college rugby teams came up with strategies that made their matches so boring that they became unwatchable. Rules were added to ensure that the matches remained interesting for spectators. I have yet to see a patch note that says, "Redesigned the Shaman restoration spec to make their heals more exciting to watch." That's why you'll never see a NRL. Even PvP matches in WoW are boring to watch.

[Glorious Leader]

Welcome to human nature?

Human nature is one of those phrases like common sense that on an individual level is semantically meaningless. Their is behavior you can associate with groups of people but human beings are free to choose how to they act. The content influences and engenders this behavior but it's not a rule of law that they have to be intolerant of others. They choose to be and that choice is often influenced by the content being consumed.

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Your logic is flawed right there. You can be subscribed for most of the year and still be a casual player just doing dungeons, hunting achievements, leveling alts, you name it.

.

You could be if the developers supported that content instead of the laster sharp focus on raiding and only raiding.

[melodramocracy]

Human nature is one of those phrases like common sense that on an individual level is semantically meaningless. Their is behavior you can associate with groups of people but human beings are free to choose how to they act. The content influences and engenders this behavior but it's not a rule of law that they have to be intolerant of others. They choose to be and that choice is often influenced by the content being consumed.

It's not meaningless at all. You'd be hard pressed to find any activity in which there aren't a subset of people who strive to be the best in it. And the higher up the 'food chain' (for lack of a better word) you go in said activity, the more is expected from people on an individual level.

[Glorious Leader]

It's not meaningless at all. You'd be hard pressed to find any activity in which there aren't a subset of people who strive to be the best in it. And the higher up the 'food chain' (for lack of a better word) you go in said activity, the more is expected from people on an individual level.

Well no not necessarily. The expectation of people from an individual level is ultimately set by the individual. The content itself can promote this expectation as it does but if the elite assholes have retarded expectations of others and of himself then they should not be surprised or upset or belligerent and hostile when it's not met. Like the guy who calls some dude out in lfr for 30kdps then gets kicked for being a dick. Well the expectation was that people would look up to you for your big number and huge epeen and I'm entirely heartened to hear that they booted yo ass so fast because they don't give a shit.

The point I was getting I think is that those who strive to be the best and elite often or at least in warcrafts case will carry a certain attitude along with them. In the specific case of warcraft the demands of the content often engenders a certain behavior where tolerance is extremely limited. This is not a hard and fast rule, I know lots of decent folks who are "pro" but in a universe where anonymity reigns with little to no repercussion for douch bagger that chip on the shoulder can get super large. At least the pro bee keeper can be fingered as a pro bee keeper and recognized as such if he's an asshole to newer or weaker bee keepers and really it's in his best interest to get more people bee keeping since he likes the hobby and want's to see it grow. For some paradoxical reason lots of assholes raiding don't understand that it's really in their best interest to have more folks raiding and instead would rather keep as many of them out as possible. Well at least the more vocal among them at any rate.

It's like people railling against ya know bands selling out in the music scene without the understanding that ultimately artists are almost always sell outs from day 1. I mean they are attempting to make a living from the music they make so it has to have a broad appeal and the more "elite" audiophiles will sit at home and lament how their favorite artist sold the fuck out when in reality his or her dream was just achieved. In the same fashion raiding has got to pay for itself and when some hard cores moan and lament more people raiding and in general the game selling out(in this raiding sold out) they are under the false impression that the game was ever anything but a sell out. You find this opinion at the top quite a bit although perversely also at the bottom. Feudal serfs paying tithe to theirs "kings" and "emperors" I guess and embracing their place on the "food chain" and the arguments that keep them there as if it were a natural law.

[hyphnos]

It's not meaningless at all. You'd be hard pressed to find any activity in which there aren't a subset of people who strive to be the best in it. And the higher up the 'food chain' (for lack of a better word) you go in said activity, the more is expected from people on an individual level.

Except in most of those activities, being higher up the food chain doesn't imply that you have special equipment that lesser beings cannot have. The fact that the best tools to play the game are given only to those who are already good at it makes WoW unlike most every other leisure/sports activity in the world. I may not play golf as well as Tiger Woods, but I can go out and buy the same clubs and balls he plays with and for the most part, play on courses substantially similar to if not identical to the ones he plays on.

If WoW was really about skill, then everyone would have access to the same gear and those who got the farthest would get there on skill alone, not skill plus accumulated gear wealth.

[Glorious Leader]

If WoW was really about skill, then everyone would have access to the same gear and those who got the farthest would get there on skill alone, not skill plus accumulated gear wealth.

The suggestion was made that heroic raiding ought to simple be like challenge modes and it's one I welcome heartily. Lot's of those folks rail on about how they aren't doing it for the gear just because ya know they love the challenge. Well time to nut up.

[Deleted]

It's like people railling against ya know bands selling out in the music scene without the understanding that ultimately artists are almost always sell outs from day 1. I mean they are attempting to make a living from the music they make so it has to have a broad appeal and the more "elite" audiophiles will sit at home and lament how their favorite artist sold the fuck out when in reality his or her dream was just achieved.

Not everyone sells out (Kurt Cobain didn't want to make another Nevermind for example which is why In Utero was so different). However, Blizzard are a for profit business so selling out is understandable.

That doesn't mean I or others have to like it and we will happily move on to something else when it emerges. You can stay here.

[Glorious Leader]

Not everyone sells out (Kurt Cobain didn't want to make another Nevermind for example which is why In Utero was so different). However, Blizzard are a for profit business so selling out is understandable.

That doesn't mean I or others have to like it and we will happily move on to something else when it emerges. You can stay here.

You're kidding right. Nirvana was one of musics hottest bands and totally sold out the Seattle scene. The music kids raged so hard and huddled around their Mudhoney records. Nevermind sold out the grunge scene so fucking hard. It's fantastic revisionist history to say otherwise. In Utero STILL topped billboard music charts and Nirvana had CONSTANT airplay on MTV. I know I'm dating myself but yea Nirvana was fucking EVERYWHERE.

[Deleted]

You're kidding right. Nirvana was one of musics hottest bands and totally sold out the Seattle scene. The music kids raged so hard and huddled around their Mudhoney records. Nevermind sold out the grunge scene so fucking hard. It's fantastic revisionist history to say otherwise. In Utero STILL topped billboard music charts.

Lol. Cobain said he'd rather die than make another Nevermind. In Utero is drastically different.

Revisionist?

Here's another band that never sold out: Tool. Really awesome music.

You seem to have missed the point. In a for profit industry the only way people like me who want a real MMORPG again will get one is if it's small but remains profitable because most people are tempted to sell out. I can't blame them really; money buys everything in this fake world.