Nerf arms warriors thread

[Yvaelle]

Can somebody give me some proof on how bad/good warriors scale with gear?
warrior defenders say they scale bad, everyone else says they scale good.
Nobody gives proof however.

Just as an example, I ran scaling for an Arms warrior in full 522 pvp gear, versus a subtlety rogue in comparable gear. Subtlety rogues in pve scale pretty well with gear - so I figured that would be a solid comparison point.

Scaling	Arms	Subtlety
Str/Agi	3.77	6.49
AP	1.95	1.71
Exp	4.90	2.52
Hit (to yellow cap)	6.36	3.05
Crit	2.26	2.15
Haste	1.56	1.90
Mastery	1.95	2.00
Weapon DPS	13.26	7.85
Weapon Speed	1777.81	786.08

So as you can see, Subtlety rogues adore agility - more than Warriors adore strength. Arms scales better off actual attack power however than Subtlety does, which is interesting. Expertise and Hit cap are way, way, way more important for warriors - because they provide soooo much to them compared to Subtlety. Warriors scale better off crit, worse off haste, and about the same off mastery.

Then we get to weapon damage and speed - an upgrade to a warriors weapon is worth TWICE the benefit that an upgrade to a Subtlety rogue is - and weapons are freaking amazing to everyone. Weapons have so much of our overall damage invested in them, that those massive multipliers to weapon damage and speed mean that warriors are actually outscaling subtlety rogues by a significant margin.

If a warrior were a subtlety rogue, he'd be wielding four daggers instead of two.


Note: Warriors are clearly very strong right now, but I'm not throwing this out there to piss on the warrior parade - I just figured I could answer this scaling question more definitively for everybody

[Deleted]

You know.. making stance and shield changing macros on your shield wall hotkey was really really hard.. This is a convenience change more than anything, now we don't HAVE to grind out a sword and a shield aswell

I thought Shield Wall required you to keep on your shield for the entire duration? If so, how is the ability to keep mongo'ing not a giant buff then?

[Spacepunch]

I must say that as an Ele shaman, warriors are the bane of my existence. I still don't believe they need to be changed. Just figure out how to deal with them and by the end of the season people will be bitching about something else.

[Zarahi]

Yes stance dancing and shield swap macros did play a huge impact on warrior play but, Blizzard also nerfed weapon swap macros back then and sometimes when you if you did use said macro if you got a lag spike or something it would totally screw over your timing to spell reflect. Also casters would QQ about omg he reflected my spell (Even though a huge shield appears above your head when you spell reflect).

[ipoststuff]

Warriors dont have a "kill you in a deep freeze" kinda OPness but they have quite a package. It's almost like they have no weakness which is OP

[ButterToast]

People that believe stance & shield requirements were okay and that the class needs them are truthfully ignorant.

The class didn't take skills back then, it took VERY VERY low latency levels and 1000 macros/key binds to do something the other class can do with a single button.
On top of that add the stupid global cool downs other classes can apply passively (Rend and Hamstring

Example:
How to disarm as a rogue > /use dismantle.
How to disarm as a warrior > /stop all damage dealt /switch to defensive stance /cast disarm /switch back to battle stance with 10 rage (or 0) and go build rage again to continue dealing damage.

I say good riddance to all the shitty limitations and restrictions I had to deal with throughout my experience as a warrior since TBC till today.
whether class is being "dumbed down" (LOL), a good warrior will be noticed and a "retard warrior" will be noticed.

[Nicola]

Then we get to weapon damage and speed - an upgrade to a warriors weapon is worth TWICE the benefit that an upgrade to a Subtlety rogue is - and weapons are freaking amazing to everyone. Weapons have so much of our overall damage invested in them, that those massive multipliers to weapon damage and speed mean that warriors are actually outscaling subtlety rogues by a significant margin.

If a warrior were a subtlety rogue, he'd be wielding four daggers instead of two.

I'm going to do a prediction based on that and on how much complaining there is about warriors right now. Once warriors start getting their Grievious weapon, this forum is going to get flooded by even more complaints about warriors. A 20-30% increase in damage from a single upgrade on a class that's already this strong right now, people are not going to like that.

[meathead]

Just as an example, I ran scaling for an Arms warrior in full 522 pvp gear, versus a subtlety rogue in comparable gear. Subtlety rogues in pve scale pretty well with gear - so I figured that would be a solid comparison point.

Scaling	Arms	Subtlety
Str/Agi	3.77	6.49
AP	1.95	1.71
Exp	4.90	2.52
Hit (to yellow cap)	6.36	3.05
Crit	2.26	2.15
Haste	1.56	1.90
Mastery	1.95	2.00
Weapon DPS	13.26	7.85
Weapon Speed	1777.81	786.08

So as you can see, Subtlety rogues adore agility - more than Warriors adore strength. Arms scales better off actual attack power however than Subtlety does, which is interesting. Expertise and Hit cap are way, way, way more important for warriors - because they provide soooo much to them compared to Subtlety. Warriors scale better off crit, worse off haste, and about the same off mastery.

Then we get to weapon damage and speed - an upgrade to a warriors weapon is worth TWICE the benefit that an upgrade to a Subtlety rogue is - and weapons are freaking amazing to everyone. Weapons have so much of our overall damage invested in them, that those massive multipliers to weapon damage and speed mean that warriors are actually outscaling subtlety rogues by a significant margin.

If a warrior were a subtlety rogue, he'd be wielding four daggers instead of two.


Note: Warriors are clearly very strong right now, but I'm not throwing this out there to piss on the warrior parade - I just figured I could answer this scaling question more definitively for everybody

what people seem to forget is that rage has been normalized.no more rage from damage done/taken-its a set amount now.rage normalization was done to keep warriors scaling in check and it does just that.

[Yvaelle]

what people seem to forget is that rage has been normalized.no more rage from damage done/taken-its a set amount now.rage normalization was done to keep warriors scaling in check and it does just that.

Rage normalization is included in those simulations, I didn't forget ;p

Rage generation does increase modestly with haste, which is included as well - and as you can see - haste is still the worst secondary state for warriors despite this additional benefit (beyond the increased white damage that haste directly benefits).

Just because warriors won't generate rage significantly faster at higher item levels doesn't mean they don't scale with gear - as shown - weapon damage and weapon speed play a colossal role on warrior damage - as does expertise and hit capping. Scaling doesn't just mean how fast your resources generate, it means how much your damage increases based on an increase in item level: and it does (warriors do scale competitively).

[Emophia]

Don't nerf damage, warriors should have the best damage in the game when they have uptime.

Make Bladestorm disarmable again, put like a 10-15 second ICD on reflects and like a 7 second one on both interrupts. Switch Bladestorm and Storm Bolt positions in the talent tree so people can't take shockwave and stormbolt.

[Cirayne24]

Don't nerf damage, warriors should have the best damage in the game when they have uptime.

Make Bladestorm disarmable again, put a 10-15 second ICD on reflects and 7 second one on both interrupts. Switch Bladestorm and Storm Bolt positions in the talent tree so people can't take shockwave and stormbolt.

I wouldn't mind Bladestorm being disarmable again. I think it's silly that you can pop all CDs and DPS without fear of being countered, and that goes for all classes not just warrior.

[Richdogg]

Just as an example, I ran scaling for an Arms warrior in full 522 pvp gear, versus a subtlety rogue in comparable gear. Subtlety rogues in pve scale pretty well with gear - so I figured that would be a solid comparison point.

Scaling	Arms	Subtlety
Str/Agi	3.77	6.49
AP	1.95	1.71
Exp	4.90	2.52
Hit (to yellow cap)	6.36	3.05
Crit	2.26	2.15
Haste	1.56	1.90
Mastery	1.95	2.00
Weapon DPS	13.26	7.85
Weapon Speed	1777.81	786.08

So as you can see, Subtlety rogues adore agility - more than Warriors adore strength. Arms scales better off actual attack power however than Subtlety does, which is interesting. Expertise and Hit cap are way, way, way more important for warriors - because they provide soooo much to them compared to Subtlety. Warriors scale better off crit, worse off haste, and about the same off mastery.

Then we get to weapon damage and speed - an upgrade to a warriors weapon is worth TWICE the benefit that an upgrade to a Subtlety rogue is - and weapons are freaking amazing to everyone. Weapons have so much of our overall damage invested in them, that those massive multipliers to weapon damage and speed mean that warriors are actually outscaling subtlety rogues by a significant margin.

If a warrior were a subtlety rogue, he'd be wielding four daggers instead of two.


Note: Warriors are clearly very strong right now, but I'm not throwing this out there to piss on the warrior parade - I just figured I could answer this scaling question more definitively for everybody

amazing stuff, I knew the weapon was important, but wow, I didn't realize it was everything for warriors

[Deleted]

Don't nerf damage, warriors should have the best damage in the game when they have uptime.

The problem is that warriors have pretty much 100% uptime. Either nerf the damage or nerf their mobility.

Cant have both!

[Deleted]

Welcome to the same thing that happens at the end of literally every expansion.

Warrior timeline of each x-pack is to start OP, get nerfed to nothingness, get a couple of small buffs and then get a tonne more buffs to finish the expansion OP again.

[Sin Cara]

Even if you play a warrior and go into a thread saying they are a bit too strong, the warrior bandwagon jumps on you immediately.
Deep wounds is way too strong atm. I stated this in the warrior forums and Mushhead or w/e his name is started accusing me of playing "an op mage".
I think most warrior attitudes are the cause of a lot of the hate they receive.

[Deleted]

If they dont nerf warriors, why dont we join them and make an warrior alt?

[Natixsphere]

Does anyone else think they are way to out of line and OP... I really thought maybe they would get a hotfix today but no. I dont see why blizzard cant give them a slight buff without ruining the class and making it face roll its either they are to weak or way to OP!! It needs to be fixed!

[Baracuda]

Never mind, fixed.

[Verain]

So as you can see, Subtlety rogues adore agility - more than Warriors adore strength. Arms scales better off actual attack power however than Subtlety does, which is interesting.

The core scaling mechanic for sub is being super agile- there's a fat multiplier. AP has no such thing. For combat you would find the numbers closer.

Expertise and Hit cap are way, way, way more important for warriors - because they provide soooo much to them compared to Subtlety.

While both caps are easy to hit for pvp even it 468-ish ilvl, remember that a stunned or feared target can't dodge or parry. If you had 0 expertise, you would still have no problem executing a shadow dance- cheap shot can't be dodged or parried (no openers can), and the target can't dodge or parry during the stuns. Meanwhile, not included on that list is FUCKING GOUGE getting dodged or parried. Gouging from behind is impossible without a glyph, and given the common use of gouge, you wouldn't glyph that normally.

Warriors scale better off crit, worse off haste, and about the same off mastery.

Haste is interesting because most modelling assumes reasonable uptime. In practice, rogues and warriors get a lot less than their listed haste benefit in pvp, etc.

Then we get to weapon damage and speed - an upgrade to a warriors weapon is worth TWICE the benefit that an upgrade to a Subtlety rogue is - and weapons are freaking amazing to everyone. Weapons have so much of our overall damage invested in them, that those massive multipliers to weapon damage and speed mean that warriors are actually outscaling subtlety rogues by a significant margin.

Correct and for this reason.

[Flaks]

The problem is that warriors have pretty much 100% uptime. Either nerf the damage or nerf their mobility.

Cant have both!

That's just utter bullshit. EVERY melee can and does move faster than melee. EVERY melee has better GRIP than warriors. Every melee is able to get away from a warrior.

EVERY ranged has either a heavy escape mechanism OR great passive damage reduction. MOST ranged are able to ensure minimal warrior uptime. If you're a hunter, mage, balance druid and can't keep a warrior off of you then you have a shit ton of learning before you even belong in this thread. If you're an affliction warlock or elemental shaman and can't time your defensive cds around when a warrior is going to hit you hard (it's pretty damn obvious if you know what the colossus smash icon looks like) then you have some learning to do. The ONLY ranged that should have problems with warriors is spriest. Yes, I just said affliction warlocks should beat warriors; a good demo or destro lock can flawless a warrior 9 times out of 10, affliction has very similar tools and if you don't know how to use them properly you better get started on some learning.

And for every person outlining some bullshit of "lock casts, warrior pummels, lock casts again warrior charges, lock casts again warrior disrupting shouts" etc. etc. I swear that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's like the lock doesn't have so much cc it makes mage cc look weak, like it doesn't have spell lockout immunities, like it doesn't have the best escape mechanism in the game and like it doesn't have by far the most AND best defensive cds in the game.

Here's what you SHOULD do as a lock: warrior charges, you already coiled/shadow fury'd/horrored him. Warrior charges again, you howl of terrored, warrior zerker rages, you blow ONE defensive IF you need it, 6 seconds pass, you fear again, warrior trinkets and now you have him where you want him. By the next fear/other cc the warrior will be a sitting duck; if you haven't been able to time your cc's then that's on you and yet you still have plenty of other defensives to survive. Notice how you haven't used a succubus for even more cc here, nor have you used your portal or your gateway. And this is just 1v1, when it comes to group arena play, you have your dots spread and a partner to help keep the warrior off you while you can now instead cc the shit out of his partner. Nevermind that even affliction lock demon souled burst can burn BOTH dotted targets down in under 10 seconds.