Nerf arms warriors thread

[Lulbalance]

people are denying warriors are overtop right now?

Pretty evident I thought..the 'why' is also pretty obvious.

[Deleted]

I'm not saying a damage nerf is necessarily the way to go - but the argument that it can't be done because of PvE isn't valid.

You do know that those sims are for T14H, as opposed to T16? there be some changes dun happend

[Yvaelle]

You do know that those sims are for T14H, as opposed to T16? there be some changes dun happend

I picked that sim specifically because it's a 5.4 era sim for an average item level closer to current pvp gear. A sim for T16H gear would be based around 580 item level gear - so the gear scaling at that point would be wildly out of whack compared to the 522 PvP gear we see in arenas and RBGs today

[Deleted]

I picked that sim specifically because it's a 5.4 era sim for an average item level closer to current pvp gear. A sim for T16H gear would be based around 580 item level gear - so the gear scaling at that point would be wildly out of whack compared to the 522 PvP gear we see in arenas and RBGs today

I'm no PvP expert but isn't the issue with that sim, that just about every class has gone through several changes since T14? The way I see it, you only look at gear/stats, while classes have been buffed/nerfed several times since T14. I'm not sure it's really accurate?

[Yvaelle]

Arms warriors needed the buff for pve damage. How about cutting back on deep wounds damage in pvp? Im sick and tired of arms getting gutted because of pvp complaints when they can, should and have set precedent for a different set of effects against players vs. npcs.

I think we all agree that they need to dilleneate between PvE and PvP effects for abilities - it would make balance so much easier - and it only requires that people read a tooltip a little longer than they have in the past. The people who can't be bothered to learn what their abilities do will complain about imbalance regardless of whether you change things or not - the game always appears imbalanced to them - because they don't truly know what is going on.

I disagree and sims are totally worthless as pieces of data. Actual parse data, which is what real players on real fights with real relevant data shows fury is still ahead by a good bit even with these buffs to arms. But why should fury always be on top?

Yes, but that's also as you pointed out - an effect of all the PvE-raid warriors refusing to play Arms out of personal preference (and they are right, because Fury is more fun / cooler looking). If all the top warriors play Fury out of personal preference, then the sims of the top 100 fury warriors and the top 100 arms warriors won't ever be comparable: which is why raidbots is an unreliable measure of spec capability where simulations are often better.

For example, Malkorak Normal is the single target patchwerk of SoO:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Malkorok/...14/60/default/

As we see, Fury appears quite respectable - while Arms appears to be dead last. But compare the actual data that they are drawing that conclusion from:

http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play.../Arms_Warrior/

Since top-end PvE warriors overwhelmingly play Fury, there are hundreds of parses of Fury warriors pulling huge numbers: the top 100 are chosen. By contrast, since there are so few Arms parses in PvE - the average is including a lot of clear underperformers within the top 100. The top 100 Fury parses have just a 30k spread between 1st place and 100th place - the top 100 Arms parses have nearly a 100k spread. Arms isn't an exceptionally random and lucky spec (like say, Fire mage) - so a comparison like Raidbots is actually more useless than a simulation.

As analogy, it would be like picking the top 100 best Basketball players in the US, versus the top 100 best Basketball players in a given state: across the US the top 100 will unanimously include star performers from the top pro teams - across a state it will include the state team, and then a bunch of college/highschoolers.

Blizzard makes the same mistake all the time when they nerf specs or arena comps because they have the highest current representation rather than because they are the "most overpowered". Sometimes it's correlated - or sometimes people just really like a certain spec/comp because its fun / looks cool

- - - Updated - - -

I'm no PvP expert but isn't the issue with that sim, that just about every class has gone through several changes since T14? The way I see it, you only look at gear/stats, while classes have been buffed/nerfed several times since T14. I'm not sure it's really accurate?

It's a T14 gear sim, but taken after the 5.4 changes - so it includes all buffs/nerfs to date - but uses an item level closest to current pvp gear.

[Deleted]

Okay I see. I know classes scale differently with gear and I understand why you chose a sim with gear levels closer to the PvP gear now. And it's probably just me who don't understand it, but I don't see how the raidbot parses would be that far off - just because of gear.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

As you see, this is how the dps rank atm and I know that those parses are the top parses but still. I mean, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the sims you made are somewhat accurate cause of the gear compared to what ilvl the PvP gear has now. But that would mean, that DK's goes from bottom of the parse to the top just by gaining gear. I'm not sure that's correct - at least not from a PvE perspective. Cause I see our DK with ilvl 568 getting beat by our Lock and Rogue with a few ilvl's lower (10/14 Heroic btw, so our players do know how to play). Also, 580 is only the top top players from 25 man guilds in more or less full Heroic Warforged gear.

[apepi]

Well killing spree is unpeelable too, don't forget that one

But "Warrior scaling sucks" is always funny to hear. It's used by people who don't even know what that means. If you went and asked them, why does warrior scaling suck, most of them would not be able to answer to you. Arms warrior scaling does suck in PvE compared to many other specs but that is because of secondary stats. They do not have mechanics that benefit enough from increased haste and mastery for example. That however does not mean that they suck in pvp because pvp is played with far less secondary stats than pve because of the lower item level, and haste as a stat isn't even remotely as useful in pvp as it is in pve because you will never have 100% uptime on your target. So it does not matter that you don't benefit from haste. My ret for example benefits hugely from haste in pve, but gemming plain haste for pvp would be just stupid because of the nature of pvp.

However warriors are built to scale very well with weapons. They have lots of attacks based on weapon damage and arms has passives that increase melee or 2h damage for a certain amount and getting a new 2h-weapon benefits arms warriors more than most melee.

My monk is a perfect counter to warriors, you will not be able to kill my monk. I have had 2 warriors leave because they could not touch my monk. Perfect imbalance is so fun.

[Rider31757]

Dude, seriously, stop defending warriors as they are fine, you are just making a fool of yourself. You can't counter a warrior by simply slowing him cause he got slows himself (you remember hamstring, right?), gap closers, blade storm (which is the ONLY offensive skill in the game that you get no way to control) and also he may reflect some of the slows. Also, if that is the only way to stop him, there are several classes in the game that will remove this weakness with a freedom skill (pally, shaman, hunter, monk and druids).

After reading your posts on this thread I can only see you as a biased person who would say that s5 dks were fine if you were a DK. Also, it raises me a question to which patch did you reach your 1.9k rating mark.

Finally, now that most people got the new weapons that would make people even with warrior because "warrior scaling sucks" as most warriors were claiming, can you guess what happened to their representation?
It increased 2.9%... (To a humble 17.9%, 2.8% behind the hunters of last season) who would have see that coming? (Hint: everyone but warriors).

Hm Bladestorm isn't completely uncontrollable.. I hate when a DK deathgrips me away from what I assume would be a guaranteed kill. Esp with double deathgrip. Just saying.. and I think the guy meant that if the warrior fails to put hamstring on you.. because he has disrupting shout.. so the warrior can't slow you at distance. I've fought many good players that take advantage of the one second you don't refresh hamstring. *shrug* I wish I would ever see a hunter use his pets freedom on me 0.0 Warrior scaling isn't like it used to be with gear is what I assume some ppl are talking about.. warriors would suck until they got full epics then they stomped everything. With rage generation being different now gear doesn't do that anymore. But yes with higher dmg weapon = higher dmg.. imagine that.

[Yvaelle]

Okay I see. I know classes scale differently with gear and I understand why you chose a sim with gear levels closer to the PvP gear now. And it's probably just me who don't understand it, but I don't see how the raidbot parses would be that far off - just because of gear.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

That's not actually a parse, it's a scoring system that amalgamates all the the top logs across all the fights in a tier. What I linked was simulationcraft's official logs for this patch for that gear level, on a single target patchwerk encounter. That's usually a better basis for comparison for arenas - because while cleave can be useful for pressure and swaps sometimes - the amount of damage you can sustain on your kill target is what really counts for winning arenas. The raidbot ranking you linked includes mass aoe, multi-dot, cleave and single target fights (all heroic SoO fights) combined together into a single ranking: which isn't very useful for arenas

As you see, this is how the dps rank atm and I know that those parses are the top parses but still. I mean, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the sims you made are somewhat accurate cause of the gear compared to what ilvl the PvP gear has now. But that would mean, that DK's goes from bottom of the parse to the top just by gaining gear.

Part of the issue is as mentioned above - that what you are linking and what I am linking are not comparable things. The other issue is that we're comparing completely different item levels - raidbots at this point is ~565+ item level people, and I linked 522 sims: so the scaling will be different. Shifts like that really aren't impossible - it's just a matter of scaling - but the bigger issue in this specific case is that your comparing SoO fight averages amongst top players, against theoretical patchwerk DPS in ~60 item levels lower gear: different inputs yield different outcomes

I'm not sure that's correct - at least not from a PvE perspective. Cause I see our DK with ilvl 568 getting beat by our Lock and Rogue with a few ilvl's lower (10/14 Heroic btw, so our players do know how to play). Also, 580 is only the top top players from 25 man guilds in more or less full Heroic Warforged gear.

The mention of 580 gear is because the only other official 5.4 sim comparison on simulationcraft.org right now is a SoO BiS list: which assumes full 580 gear for each spec simmed. The distinction as best I can phase it is - simcraft tells you what is theoretically possible - raidbots tells you what is most popular amongst top raiders.

What is best in a given tier can vary wildly because scaling shifts for every different item level range - stats jump enormously and with them - everything rebalances. What was overpowered last tier may not necessarily be overpowered next tier, and so forth. Similarly, even comparing Malkorak Normal (the closest thing to Patchwerk this tier) to a Patchwerk sim isn't very accurate. Malkorak doesn't have any real melee mechanics, but does require a fair bit of running from the ranged - so melee will appear comparable to a patchwerk sim, but ranged will appear lower. That's the biggest issue with using simcraft effectively - accounting for all the externalities (ie. movement) that weren't in the sim.

[Rorke]

How would you folks feel about;

-MSR being changed to replace SR
-Defensive Stance at 15% for Arms/Fury
-DS being put on a 3-5 second CD after using Pummel

Keep in mind warrior damage can not and should not be touched due to still being one of the weakest single target specs in the game for PvE.
That fact alone means that nerfs will come from the utility side.

Nope my changes are much better and more realistic. They aren't going to re revert the defense stance change and they aren't going to replace MSR with spell reflect.

Just going to re quote what I've written. Not as though any of you are actually going to read it.

I want Hamstring back on the 1.0 second gcd.

I want the shield requirements back or Spell reflect/mass reflect to cost 50 rage.

I want Bladestorm to be disarmable again.

I want Juggernaut on a 15 second cool down, Warbringer on a 22 second cool down and Double Time on a 24 second cool down.

I want Glyph of Heroic Leap removed and replaced with a glyph that reduces charge's cool down by 3 additional seconds.

I want intimidating shout to actually break on damage or else be nerfed to a 3 minute cool down.

I want the intervene buff reverted.

This is what should happen. And if someone ask's "Isn't that a little too much?" Yes its intended to work out that way.

Once last thing is that they need to buff Ferals. That spec actually takes skill. I said that a 1700 Feral is basically as good as a Glad Warrior in another thread. Warriors and DK's need to always be throttled to a certain rating limit or else they ruin the game for everyone else. Both classes are extremely easy to play that it makes it seem as though there is no reason to play something like a Rogue, Feral or Monk when you have to put in 10 times the effort to "attempt" to achieve some of the same results of those brainless classes.

Warriors have always been in a precarious position in PvP though - I hope they get a proper overhaul in 6.0 - because they deserve it. They are still struggling with mechanics that were awkward in Vanilla.

Oh stop. Warriors have received a COMPLETE overhaul in MoP that it doesn't even feel like the same class anymore. I've never ever seen so much love for Warriors from the devs in wotlk or cataclysm. Those expansions warriors would literally get no interesting changes. If there's one thing meathead ever said right was that LK Warriors outside of pve hero gear in an arena setting were atrocious in any other form of pvp. It took them till Cataclysm to slightly overhaul Warriors but they added stupid mechanics like Lambs of the Slaughter (Oh lord I can't believe I remember that talent) and kept many of the original mechanics still in play.

No Warrior today has any right to bitch about how "awkward" it is to play a Warrior now.

[Hellravager]

Heres what i have to say to ANYONE complaining about arms warriors saying that they need to be nerfed

[Deleted]

That's not actually a parse, it's a scoring system that amalgamates all the the top logs across all the fights in a tier. What I linked was simulationcraft's official logs for this patch for that gear level, on a single target patchwerk encounter. That's usually a better basis for comparison for arenas - because while cleave can be useful for pressure and swaps sometimes - the amount of damage you can sustain on your kill target is what really counts for winning arenas. The raidbot ranking you linked includes mass aoe, multi-dot, cleave and single target fights (all heroic SoO fights) combined together into a single ranking: which isn't very useful for arenas



Part of the issue is as mentioned above - that what you are linking and what I am linking are not comparable things. The other issue is that we're comparing completely different item levels - raidbots at this point is ~565+ item level people, and I linked 522 sims: so the scaling will be different. Shifts like that really aren't impossible - it's just a matter of scaling - but the bigger issue in this specific case is that your comparing SoO fight averages amongst top players, against theoretical patchwerk DPS in ~60 item levels lower gear: different inputs yield different outcomes



The mention of 580 gear is because the only other official 5.4 sim comparison on simulationcraft.org right now is a SoO BiS list: which assumes full 580 gear for each spec simmed. The distinction as best I can phase it is - simcraft tells you what is theoretically possible - raidbots tells you what is most popular amongst top raiders.

What is best in a given tier can vary wildly because scaling shifts for every different item level range - stats jump enormously and with them - everything rebalances. What was overpowered last tier may not necessarily be overpowered next tier, and so forth. Similarly, even comparing Malkorak Normal (the closest thing to Patchwerk this tier) to a Patchwerk sim isn't very accurate. Malkorak doesn't have any real melee mechanics, but does require a fair bit of running from the ranged - so melee will appear comparable to a patchwerk sim, but ranged will appear lower. That's the biggest issue with using simcraft effectively - accounting for all the externalities (ie. movement) that weren't in the sim.

You know what, I completely derped. You did say sim and I didn't think about it, when I started to look at parses. So yeah hurp durp.

[Sainur]

Heres what i have to say to ANYONE complaining about arms warriors saying that they need to be nerfed

Made me laugh.

On another note, buff warriors plz.

[Jinxz]

I play a warrior and TRUST me, they are a bit over the top, either nerf their dmg or their utility.

[Hand Banana]

The problem with warriors is that they need the damage and control or they are useless (like last season). Heres my rundown:

Warriors dont have:
Ranged abilities of any kind
Off-healing or decent self-healing even
Hard ccs (think poly, fear, hex, reptenance [long duration ccs with fairly short cds]).
Utility (Rallying cry and MSR are considered utility or defensive depending, not like Freedom, smokebomb, or gateway)

Warriors have:
Damage
Control (short duration ccs [generally instant])
Defensives

Warriors and rogues are both in the same boat for the most part on the package they can bring. Rogues have historically been leaning on control and less damage while warriors have leaned on damage and less control while both maintaining a fairly solid defense. Last season warriors had low damage, medium control, and high defensives. Now they have mid-high damage and mid-high control and high defensives while picking up some utility in MSR. They need to have one of the 3 things they bring brought down but not in a way that will cripple warriors to be like last season. My vote would be to leave damage fairly high (we are warriors ffs, no range of any kind, we need to hurt when we are on someone) and bring down control a bit and slightly lower the passive DR from D stance (I vote 20%, I dont understand the obsession with 25% or 15% there are other numbers you know).

- I would shift damage out of deep wounds and into our mastery to make us scale better and have some use for secondary stats: 15% DW nerf and buff mastery to 75% WD.
- D stance to 20% DR
- 5 sec ICD on disrupting / pummel and MSR / SR.
- Make safeguard baseline, remove rootbreak from intervene/safeguard, make new talent in safeguard's place that breaks roots/slows on a 45-60 sec cd (and throw something in for the pve people that wont effect pve.. whatever).
- Storm bolt back to 3 second stun.

[Rorke]

WD.
- D stance to 20% DR
- 5 sec ICD on disrupting / pummel and MSR / SR.
- Make safeguard baseline, remove rootbreak from intervene/safeguard, make new talent in safeguard's place that breaks roots/slows on a 45-60 sec cd (and throw something in for the pve people that wont effect pve.. whatever).
- Storm bolt back to 3 second stun.

They aren't going to go with anything like this nor will they probably change anything I wanted. I've literally just come to the conclusion that nothing is being changed about Warriors. If there were going to be changes, it would've already happened in one of the recent hotfixes. This is season 11 Cataclysm Rogue all over again. There won't be any actual changes that mean something until patch 5.5, which probably isn't even going to be out until around March of 2014 if we're lucky.

[Deleted]

Once last thing is that they need to buff Ferals. That spec actually takes skill. I said that a 1700 Feral is basically as good as a Glad Warrior in another thread. Warriors and DK's need to always be throttled to a certain rating limit or else they ruin the game for everyone else. Both classes are extremely easy to play that it makes it seem as though there is no reason to play something like a Rogue, Feral or Monk when you have to put in 10 times the effort to "attempt" to achieve some of the same results of those brainless classes.

lol. Not like Rogue, huntard, Dk, monk or Ret takes any more skill. They are all ridiculous easy to play.

[dar0]

switch places on stormbolt and bladestorm, make stormbolt, shockwave and dragon roar do less dmg and tweak cds and durations appropriately, make bladestorm a good enough alternative to avatar and bloodbath. now you can chose control from one tier and dmg in an other tier. and there's no longer a way to have shockwave and stormbolt, and there's no longer a way to have avatar and bladestorm wich won't make the dmg and control from warrior to warrior feel so random.

[Deleted]

Warrior is doing a little better in PVP aaaaaaaaaand it's nerved.

[Wow]

switch places on stormbolt and bladestorm, make stormbolt, shockwave and dragon roar do less dmg and tweak cds and durations appropriately, make bladestorm a good enough alternative to avatar and bloodbath. now you can chose control from one tier and dmg in an other tier. and there's no longer a way to have shockwave and stormbolt, and there's no longer a way to have avatar and bladestorm wich won't make the dmg and control from warrior to warrior feel so random.

That wouldn't fix anything most topend warriors are bladestorm blood bath or bladestorm stormbolt. All that would do is give them a stronger bladestorm while having stormbolt.