Restoration BiS Trinkets

[Deleted]

So, basically we got 4 choices of trinkets in SoO and I'm having a hard time choosing which seems to be best.
Nazgrims Burnished Insignia
Thoks Acid-Grooved Tooth
Dysmorphic Samophlange of Discontinuity
Prismatic Prison of Pride

Obviously I want to choose the Prismatic prison of Pride.
But I just don't know about the rest. I don't think I need the Dysmorphic Samophlange cause my mana pool is fine as it is.
So it comes down to which of Thok's and Nazgrim's trinket, which will be more output in healing.

Thoughts / calculations anyone?

[adynn]

So, basically we got 4 choices of trinkets in SoO and I'm having a hard time choosing which seems to be best.
Nazgrims Burnished Insignia
Thoks Acid-Grooved Tooth
Dysmorphic Samophlange of Discontinuity
Prismatic Prison of Pride

Obviously I want to choose the Prismatic prison of Pride.
But I just don't know about the rest. I don't think I need the Dysmorphic Samophlange cause my mana pool is fine as it is.
So it comes down to which of Thok's and Nazgrim's trinket, which will be more output in healing.

Thoughts / calculations anyone?

Nazgrim's; 0.14*0.33=0.0462 ---> ~5% potential increase in throughput.
Thok's; 0.0311*5=.1555 -------> ~15% potential increase in throughput.

Note that I imagine there'd be far less overhealing from Nazgrim's than Thok's, as you require 6 people to need healing for Thok's not to overheal. Also they are both very RNG based (particularly Thok's), finally note that Nazgrim's int proc will occur more often than Thok's.

TBH I'm liking the Samophlange due to the passive int (int procs on a healer are bleh imo) and I naturally run a mana thirsty playstyle. That being said I wouldn't mind having Thok's on fights that have heavy aoe damage, although I would need to test it to see how much overhealing there is and the range on the healing cleave.

[Xegor]

Numbers Hamlet theorycrafted regarding Multistrike vs Cleave shows that Cleave is better if it on average hits 1,5 targets. Otherwise Multistrike will be better.

[adynn]

Numbers Hamlet theorycrafted regarding Multistrike vs Cleave shows that Cleave is better if it on average hits 1,5 targets. Otherwise Multistrike will be better.

I don't think it's that simple, from a pure throughput standpoint you are correct however the Multistrike has a significantly higher chance of procing making it a lot more reliable, especially in 10 mans this should be considered imo.

[Deleted]

Anyone know if Nazgrim's and Thok's can proc of a hot heal? Like tick nr. 3 from a wild growth?

If so, you can assume that (sorry for sloppy math):
Numbers of heals in a fight: 2500
Average heal = 10 000

Nazgrim's:
Number of heals in a fight * 0.14 (Chance to trigger) = Ammount of procs
(Average normal heal + average crit heal) / 2 = Average heal
Average heal * 0,33 = Average proc heal ammount
Ammount of proccs + Average proc heal ammount = Average ammount of healing done by the trinket.

Thok's:
Number of heals in a fight * 0,0311 (Chance to trigger) = Ammount of procs
(Average normal heal + average crit heal) / 2 = Average heal
(Average heal * Ammount of proccs) * 5 (number of targets hit by each proc) = Average ammount of healing done by the trinket.

Conclusion:
Nazgrim's ammount healed: 1 155 000
Thok's ammount healed: 3 887 500

I didn't have much data avaiable on average heals and numbers of heals hit.
These calculations don't take over-healing, if thok's heal is a smartheal? and it also assumes that the heal from thok always hit 5 targets.

I have no idea if this math is in any way valid, i may well have everything wrong.

[adynn]

Anyone know if Nazgrim's and Thok's can proc of a hot heal? Like tick nr. 3 from a wild growth?

I'd assume so, I haven't tested it myself though.

If so, you can assume that (sorry for sloppy math):
Nazgrim's:
Number of heals in a fight * 0.14 (Chance to trigger) = Ammount of procs
(Average normal heal + average crit heal) / 2 = Average heal
Average heal * 0,33 = Average proc heal ammount
Ammount of proccs + Average proc heal ammount = Average ammount of healing done by the trinket.

Note you're assuming that you have a 50% crit chance there, what you want is a weighted average; ((crit chance)*(average crit heal) + (1-crit chance)*(average non-crit heal))*0.33, although regrowth throws this out a bit. It's actually quite a bit easier than that to work out the throughput though, because you can just multiply the proc chance by the proc effect and you'll get a multiplier that tells you what percent it'd increase your healing by (4.62% from above).

Also note that with your way you'd want (# of procs)*(average proc), however you're really doing the same thing here.

Thok's:
Number of heals in a fight * 0,0311 (Chance to trigger) = Ammount of procs
(Average normal heal + average crit heal) / 2 = Average heal
(Average heal * Ammount of proccs) * 5 (number of targets hit by each proc) = Average ammount of healing done by the trinket.

I didn't have much data avaiable on average heals and numbers of heals hit, but with this calculation Nazgrim's seem superior in throughput.
These calculations don't take over-healing, if thok's heal is a smartheal? and it also assumes that the heal from thok always hit 5 targets.

I have no idea if this math is in any way valid, i may well have everything wrong.

Similar to above, you need to use a weighted average instead, but otherwise it looks solid enough. However you're still going to end up with a 0.1555 modifier, so it is more complicated than it needs to be.

[Alltat]

I don't think it's that simple, from a pure throughput standpoint you are correct however the Multistrike has a significantly higher chance of procing making it a lot more reliable, especially in 10 mans this should be considered imo.

It's definitely worth considering. Getting a proc for a ton of healing when you don't need it is useless. Getting a little bit of healing all the time, even if it's less, is much more reliable. Thok is good, but it's a casino trinket.

[Pekoe]

Anyone know if Nazgrim's and Thok's can proc of a hot heal? Like tick nr. 3 from a wild growth?

They not only proc off HoTs, but also Efflo ticks.

[Aoroc]

To throw my hat in the ring, my go to is going to be the Sha/Siege trinket. I wouldn't mind having either of the other two though, on stack fights (like Sha or Thok for example) I'd use Thok over Siege, and on fights where I knew I wouldn't need the extra mana I'd throw on Nazgrims. But on an average fight, even with 15.8k spirit, I can still OOM if I want to and sometimes in progression even when I don't want to :P so that's my personal choice to take Siege's over a throughput one by default.

[Trubo]

To throw my hat in the ring, my go to is going to be the Sha/Siege trinket. I wouldn't mind having either of the other two though, on stack fights (like Sha or Thok for example) I'd use Thok over Siege, and on fights where I knew I wouldn't need the extra mana I'd throw on Nazgrims. But on an average fight, even with 15.8k spirit, I can still OOM if I want to and sometimes in progression even when I don't want to :P so that's my personal choice to take Siege's over a throughput one by default.

My feeling on the matter as well. At this point though I'll take the first healing warforged trinket I can get my hands on but my guild has not seen any healing trinkets from SoO drop whenever I've been present.

[Deleted]

My feeling on the matter as well. At this point though I'll take the first healing warforged trinket I can get my hands on but my guild has not seen any healing trinkets from SoO drop whenever I've been present.

I know that feeling, it can be hard to be picky when nothing drops :/

[Aoroc]

I know that feeling, it can be hard to be picky when nothing drops :/

Yes! I have so many non-tier pieces sitting in my bag it's sad. I'm actually approaching that point where the int I'd gain from them would outweigh my 4 set and maybe even my 2 set as well, but I'm not quite there yet.

[Sprucelee]

Call me old school and boring, but Dysmorphic Samophlange of Discontinuity is our core trinket IMO. Second I would use Prismatic Prison of Pride.

Cleave and multi-strike trinkets are neat, but I do not see using them on anything but farm, of course that depends on drops etc.. I would swap them in for AMP as needed, but gearing around it for haste BP makes that unwieldy, and AMP item budget is pretty darn strong. So that leaves you swapping for Dysmorphic, which is almost 3000 spirit. if gearing for a particular fight, I would rather have that 3000 stats as mastery (6.2% healing) and static intellect.

At the end of the day, cleave might be worth it in-place of either the first two in extreme stacking situations, so it will be a judgment call. I really do not see multi-strike as ever being better than them, if you have them.

[adynn]

Call me old school and boring, but Dysmorphic Samophlange of Discontinuity is our core trinket IMO. Second I would use Prismatic Prison of Pride.

Cleave and multi-strike trinkets are neat, but I do not see using them on anything but farm, of course that depends on drops etc.. I would swap them in for AMP as needed, but gearing around it for haste BP makes that unwieldy, and AMP item budget is pretty darn strong. So that leaves you swapping for Dysmorphic, which is almost 3000 spirit. if gearing for a particular fight, I would rather have that 3000 stats as mastery (6.2% healing) and static intellect.

At the end of the day, cleave might be worth it in-place of either the first two in extreme stacking situations, so it will be a judgment call. I really do not see multi-strike as ever being better than them, if you have them.

I would generally agree with that core, however I swap around the order, Pride is good enough that it beats Samophlange rather handily imo. Some napkin math;
On my 3k haste breakpoint druid, Samophlange has roughly 1 PPM, which leads to ~980 effective static spirit (or 1106 mp5), note that because this is PPM, it's regen will increase with higher haste values. I also don't know how overlapping procs work here, it may be like Horridon's and the true power may lie there.
On the other hand if you're running 12k spirit, you'll get 840 extra spirit from Pride (~950 mp5) as well as the crit effect/haste/mastery scaling some of which will be equally as large or larger.

There is of course the issue of static int vs int proc (I much, much prefer the static on Samophlange), however the sheer amount of stats Pride gives puts it solidly as our #1 trinket imo.

Note that I would seriously consider Thok's trinket on aoe intensive healing fights, depending on the range of the effect. Some napkin maths on Thok's;
With a 3.11% proc rate you should expect it to proc once every ~32 heals (1/0.0311). Now Swiftmend alone potentially puts out 4 heals every second, WG (unlgyphed) puts out roughly 5 heals per second if used on cooldown, then let's assume you have 6 rejuv's active (as it's heavy aoe damage), you're looking at ~2 heals per second from them, in total that's roughly 11 heals every second, give or take a few. This means we're looking at procs every 3 seconds on average. Note that I wasn't really factoring in haste, however you should be able to simply divide 3 by your haste coefficient (for me it's 1.075, as I have 7.5% haste). Also note that this is very rough maths, I've simplified some numbers and left some other things out, but I've tried to stay on the side of caution and the trinket should be slightly better than what I've said. Other things I should mention; I've assumed the trinket follows a binomial distribution and some funny things will happen with wild growth and haste due to the cooldown not changing, also 6 rejuv's active at any time is quite a lot as well, however those are the assumptions I ran with because it's what I cared about.

Now I believe everyone knows that Thok's has the potential to be a massive HPS increase (~15%), however both the range and the reliability were called into question previously. To me, having it proc roughly every 3 seconds makes it reliable enough for me to definitely want to use it on AoE intensive fights, however that also depends on the range of the proc.

I also think that hot based classes are much more suited to Thok's due to the increased reliability of the procs, although there are very few healers who aren't putting out a lot of heals each second (disc springs to mind here). It will also naturally be more reliable for healers who don't have much of their healing tied up in large heals obviously.

[Flemdawg]

Thought i would chime in with my 2 cents guys.

For your second trinket between multistrike vs cleave. You can try to debunk all the math in theory and say this one is better, But I say go out and test it first to really get an idea HOW you can apply these trinkets.

For example I was rolling with a flex multistrike trinket and only seeing it heal 2-3mil with incarnation on H norushen. I decided to switch to SoTF and the healing for multistrike went up to 4-5mil healing. How does this compare to Thok's trinket? I don't know yet. But I would like to say try it because you may find out a clutch way to use it; Or the way it was designed to be used. ^^ From what I understand, Hamlet has been saying multistrike is good when your generally spread out, and thok has good potential when stacked. He doesn't really say which is better because they are both situational with pros and cons.

I'm considering the static Int with spirit proc though myself. Because I hate my Nazgrim trinket int proccing at the worst times.

[Sprucelee]

I would generally agree with that core, however I swap around the order, Pride is good enough that it beats Samophlange rather handily imo. Some napkin math;
On my 3k haste breakpoint druid, Samophlange has roughly 1 PPM, which leads to ~980 effective static spirit (or 1106 mp5), note that because this is PPM, it's regen will increase with higher haste values. I also don't know how overlapping procs work here, it may be like Horridon's and the true power may lie there.
On the other hand if you're running 12k spirit, you'll get 840 extra spirit from Pride (~950 mp5) as well as the crit effect/haste/mastery scaling some of which will be equally as large or larger.

There is of course the issue of static int vs int proc (I much, much prefer the static on Samophlange), however the sheer amount of stats Pride gives puts it solidly as our #1 trinket imo.

Note that I would seriously consider Thok's trinket on aoe intensive healing fights, depending on the range of the effect. Some napkin maths on Thok's;
With a 3.11% proc rate you should expect it to proc once every ~32 heals (1/0.0311). Now Swiftmend alone potentially puts out 4 heals every second, WG (unlgyphed) puts out roughly 5 heals per second if used on cooldown, then let's assume you have 6 rejuv's active (as it's heavy aoe damage), you're looking at ~2 heals per second from them, in total that's roughly 11 heals every second, give or take a few. This means we're looking at procs every 3 seconds on average. Note that I wasn't really factoring in haste, however you should be able to simply divide 3 by your haste coefficient (for me it's 1.075, as I have 7.5% haste). Also note that this is very rough maths, I've simplified some numbers and left some other things out, but I've tried to stay on the side of caution and the trinket should be slightly better than what I've said. Other things I should mention; I've assumed the trinket follows a binomial distribution and some funny things will happen with wild growth and haste due to the cooldown not changing, also 6 rejuv's active at any time is quite a lot as well, however those are the assumptions I ran with because it's what I cared about.

Now I believe everyone knows that Thok's has the potential to be a massive HPS increase (~15%), however both the range and the reliability were called into question previously. To me, having it proc roughly every 3 seconds makes it reliable enough for me to definitely want to use it on AoE intensive fights, however that also depends on the range of the proc.

I also think that hot based classes are much more suited to Thok's due to the increased reliability of the procs, although there are very few healers who aren't putting out a lot of heals each second (disc springs to mind here). It will also naturally be more reliable for healers who don't have much of their healing tied up in large heals obviously.

Don't know where you are getting your numbers, but here are some from Hamlet on EJ:

Hamlet: Thinking in terms of mean Spirit, 553 DSD before haste is 1176*10.5*10/60*0.92*1.13 = 2139 Spi. That's a touch above par--usual itemization is 1959 at ilvl 553. Adding 37% haste makes is over 2900 Spi.

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130799-...5/#post2332772

Also, check out:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...-5-4-trinkets/

Many of my conclusions encompass these two sources. Thok's only really pulls ahead of multi-strike when you have 1.5 or more targets, and ahead of the value of secondary stats from Dys at 2 or more targets every heal. This makes it strong on stacking fights. At 5 targets every time, you have a cap of 15.5% for the normal trinket, which is incredible. The problem is that you rarely have a fight that consistently will give you this.

So for me it is a purely a question of encounter design. A fight like Norushen makes Thok's very strong, or even Thok himself. In those cases I would say the funky intellect proc is overcome by the Cleave. On most other mixed fights, with less stacking, I have reservations. Though, I think it will never be a bad choice.. it is a tasty trinket. Same could be said for multi-strike to a degree, compared to last tier none of them are "bad". I got 3 million with the flex version on Garrosh, for 3% of my healing, not horrrible, but not great.

Regardless, I see Dys/Amp/Cleave as the best choices, with multistrike as the fourth but not bad option; all will be fun to play with. Hope everyone gets them!

[Aoroc]

snip

You've mentioned Spruce about having necessary spirit to run the level of RJ required in 25 man...I think that applies in 10 man as well. With 12 second duration, you can only realistically have a max of 12 RJ out in 25 man (please correct me if I'm mistaken), so 10 in 10 man isn't that far behind. I personally have a RJ heavy playstyle and am very liberal with, so I highly agree with you that the Siege/Sha trinket are BiS. For 10 man I think Sha would be the set one with Siege's being traded out based on mana needs, but the ability to run 8-10 RJ the entire fight is huge, and the Siege trinket really helps make that possible, especially for fights where no one will sit topped for very long.

Also, I'd be curious of your opinion of 543 HLG vs 548 Dys...I'm assuming the Dys is better, yes?

[Sprucelee]

You've mentioned Spruce about having necessary spirit to run the level of RJ required in 25 man...I think that applies in 10 man as well. With 12 second duration, you can only realistically have a max of 12 RJ out in 25 man (please correct me if I'm mistaken), so 10 in 10 man isn't that far behind. I personally have a RJ heavy playstyle and am very liberal with, so I highly agree with you that the Siege/Sha trinket are BiS. For 10 man I think Sha would be the set one with Siege's being traded out based on mana needs, but the ability to run 8-10 RJ the entire fight is huge, and the Siege trinket really helps make that possible, especially for fights where no one will sit topped for very long.

Also, I'd be curious of your opinion of 543 HLG vs 548 Dys...I'm assuming the Dys is better, yes?

Yeah, I would go with Dys, it appears that it is a fairly linear upgrade with ivl versus HLG.

And I agree with you about 10-man, I know I would not change my gearing too much (and don't) when I do run it. It is always 2 healing and I find that my rejuvenation coverage is not all that different. Only reason I ever distinguish between the two sizes is that I rarely ever do real 10-man progression and it seems like there is constant feedback (that low spirit works) from people that do. I might not agree with them, but I can't really speak from real progression experience so I just

[Aoroc]

Yeah, I would go with Dys, it appears that it is a fairly linear upgrade with ivl versus HLG.

And I agree with you about 10-man, I know I would not change my gearing too much (and don't) when I do run it. It is always 2 healing and I find that my rejuvenation coverage is not all that different. Only reason I ever distinguish between the two sizes is that I rarely ever do real 10-man progression and it seems like there is constant feedback (that low spirit works) from people that do. I might not agree with them, but I can't really speak from real progression experience so I just

Yeah, the main reason I don't want to ever switch my Sha one out is because it's such a pain to gear around if you keep pulling it in and out (haha that's what..oh nevermind) but to be honest, I don't really know how people say they can do just fine with a low spirit build. Like the people who say 11k is fine for them...to me, all I see is 5k spirit worth of RJ throughout the entire fight, and I don't believe from a mathematical stand point that the throughput stats they gain from it could possibly increase all their other heals enough to outweigh 5k worth of RJ throughout an entire fight, especially with t15 4 set. But to each their own, I suppose.

[adynn]

Don't know where you are getting your numbers, but here are some from Hamlet on EJ:

Oh silly me, I divided by two for no apparent reason, I was also off a bit in other places but I just wanted to ballpark it anyway >.<

Also, check out:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...-5-4-trinkets/

Many of my conclusions encompass these two sources. Thok's only really pulls ahead of multi-strike when you have 1.5 or more targets, and ahead of the value of secondary stats from Dys at 2 or more targets every heal. This makes it strong on stacking fights. At 5 targets every time, you have a cap of 15.5% for the normal trinket, which is incredible. The problem is that you rarely have a fight that consistently will give you this.

Yeah, Thok's throughput was clearly a potential upgrade however there were a couple of potential problems; namely consistency and range. My post before was some napkin calculations to give me (and anyone else who was interested) an idea of how often I could expect procs from Thok's, because if it wasn't going to proc regularly then I'd probably want to look elsewhere. What still needs to be addressed is the range of the healing cleave though, I would like to see someone test it.

Regardless, I see Dys/Amp/Cleave as the best choices, with multistrike as the fourth but not bad option; all will be fun to play with. Hope everyone gets them!

I agree.