Liz Fowler. Wall Street Crony. The Truth behind Obamacare

[Cthulhu 2020]

Lol. Seriously, lol @ death panels.

Again, educate yourself, drop the conspiracy theories, then come back to this thread:

Obamacare has death panels!: That sounds so cartoonishly evil it must be true, right? Well, no. No part of the bill says anything about appointing people to decide whether or not someone dies. The decision over whether or not your claim is approved is still in the hands of your insurer. However, now there's an appeals process so if your claim gets turned down, you can challenge that. And the government watches that appeals process to make sure it's not being unfair to customers. So if anything the PPACA is trying to stop the death panels. ( Citation: Page 42, sec. 2719 )

What about the Independent Medicare Advisory Board? Death Panels!: The Independent Medicare Advisory Board (which has had its name changed to Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB) is intended to give recommendations on how to save Medicare costs per person, deliver more efficient and effective care, improve access to services, and eliminate waste. However, they have no real power. They put together a recommendation to put before Congress, and Congress votes on it, and the President has power to veto it. What's more, they are specifically told that their recommendation will not ration health care, raise premiums or co-pays, restrict benefits, or restrict eligibility. In other words, they need to find ways to save money without reducing care for patients. So no death panels. In any sense of the (stupid) term. ( Citation: Page 426, sec. 3403 )

Obamacare has health care rationing!: "Rationing" is just a fancier way of saying "Death Panels". And no, it doesn't. (See above).

Obamacare has an un-elected panel of people who will decide what kind of care I can get!: Yet another way of saying "Death Panels", albeit a softer way of saying it. It's true that the IPAB is appointed, not elected. However, they are expressly forbidden from reducing or rationing care. (Again, see above).

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei...did_it/c530lfx

[Kivimetsan]

Lol. Seriously, lol @ death panels.

Again, educate yourself, drop the conspiracy theories, then come back to this thread:



http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei...did_it/c530lfx

I suppose you've read all 13,000 pages of it right? Oh and how is reddit some valid source? Your rebuttal to my argument is linking what someone else has said without critically thinking for yourself?
Look, I don't even care about ObamaCare, its not going to affect me at all as im not even in the US. The thing that bugs me is the government has exempted all there buddies in the corporate world and then force it upon everyone else.

Edit; The only way people win these days is by making people out to be either crazy or conspiracy theorists. Good for you dude, seriously, congratz you won the argument.

[Wells]

Oh and how is reddit some valid source?

The post quotes the exact fucking pages of the god damn bill.

Jesus fucking christ you can't run a country when this horse shit is the level discourse runs at.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I suppose you've read all 13,000 pages of it right? Oh and how is reddit some valid source? Your rebuttal to my argument is linking what someone else has said without critically thinking for yourself?
Look, I don't even care about ObamaCare, its not going to affect me at all as im not even in the US. The thing that bugs me is the government has exempted all there buddies in the corporate world and then force it upon everyone else.

Edit; The only way people win these days is by making people out to be either crazy or conspiracy theorists. Good for you dude, seriously, congratz you won the argument.

You can point out any errors in the post if you'd like. It is incredibly accurate and cites things page by page. Or do you not like that Reddit post because it shows Obamacare for what it really is, and proves all of the death panel conspiracies (among many others) false?

[Kivimetsan]

Ok cool I accept defeat. Ill just believe everything the government says like a good sheep.

On another topic:

Lets address the morality of the bill. Do you guys think its justifiable to force employers to pay employees healthcare? Because from what iv heard, the best way around ObamaCare is by cutting people hours down to 20perweek.

For me, the bill exploits the tendencies for the majority of society who believe they are entitled to other peoples property. I think its immoral.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Ok cool I accept defeat. Ill just believe everything the government says like a good sheep.

So believing what's written in the bill is what the law actually is makes someone a sheep? Do you think there's some kind of hidden super secret version of the bill they're gonna whip out to death panel people to death?

See, this is why you were labeled as a conspiracy theorist.

[Tierbook]

Ok cool I accept defeat. Ill just believe everything the government says like a good sheep.

On another topic:

Lets address the morality of the bill. Do you guys think its justifiable to force employers to pay employees healthcare? Because from what iv heard, the best way around ObamaCare is by cutting people hours down to 20perweek.

For me, the bill exploits the tendencies for the majority of society who believe they are entitled to other peoples property. I think its immoral.

actuality they would be cut down to below 30hours to avoid paying the person health care

[Kivimetsan]

So believing what's written in the bill is what the law actually is makes someone a sheep? Do you think there's some kind of hidden super secret version of the bill they're gonna whip out to death panel people to death?

See, this is why you were labeled as a conspiracy theorist.

Eh, its happened before. The government lies a lot. If you haven't accepted that fact yet than gratz to you.

[SoundOfGuns]

So... all you Obamacare-Haters say that the current US-Healtchare is not a Death Sentence when you are not part of the upper income-levels? Yea, that obviously must be one of the reasons various third-world-countries are far above you in basically every aspect of healthcare... How can people be so... unngh...

And it's borderline hilarious what arguments are used here. Currently your great Inusrance-System rewards doctors and authorities when they can deny you the healthcare YOU NEED and safe them money. And even if it is proven they did it regardless of the knowledge the patient will DIE when they dont get this treatment payed; They get rewarded anyway. And i know this is a terrible thing to say, but if you think this is not the case, you are wrong and need to get your facts straight.

The System Obama is trying to establish there is far more like that of those countries that can't even see you from how far up they are on the health-care quality ranking, and still everyone screams bloody murder and behave like undead Stalin is going to eat your children when you let it pass. It's outragously hilarious from a european point of view, i tell you, and yet so very sad. I didn't read the whole bill, and i doubt anybody here did... in fact i doubt most of those people that going to decide if it passes or not did either. But your healthcare hardly can get any worse from what i do know... And trust me, i *really* want it to get better from how it is now, i really do, because far to often the prices american friends had to pay for basic medicine has made my stomach turn because i would pay lousy 6€ for it at max, which is why i do honestly care for the whole thing...

[Cthulhu 2020]

On another topic:

Lets address the morality of the bill. Do you guys think its justifiable to force employers to pay employees healthcare? Because from what iv heard, the best way around ObamaCare is by cutting people hours down to 20perweek.

For me, the bill exploits the tendencies for the majority of society who believe they are entitled to other peoples property. I think its immoral.

It's funny that you mention death panels being bad. I think it's immoral for people's health to be for profit and not a human right.

[Kivimetsan]

actuality they would be cut down to below 30hours to avoid paying the person health care

Well I guess its a good way to raise unemployment. They can just cut everyone down and hire more to make up the hours. Im not being serious lol.

- - - Updated - - -

It's funny that you mention death panels being bad. I think it's immoral for people's health to be for profit and not a human right.

I'll get flamed for this but Healthcare isn't a human right. You have the right to your life, liberty and freedom of speech, not the right to other individuals property (taxation, coercion into providing Healthcare for employees).

The root of the problem lies in corruption within Washington. Special interests, Lobbyists and Wall street seek to profit from this bill, not the people.

- - - Updated - - -

So... all you Obamacare-Haters say that the current US-Healtchare is not a Death Sentence when you are not part of the upper income-levels? Yea, that obviously must be one of the reasons various third-world-countries are far above you in basically every aspect of healthcare... How can people be so... unngh...

And it's borderline hilarious what arguments are used here. Currently your great Inusrance-System rewards doctors and authorities when they can deny you the healthcare YOU NEED and safe them money. And even if it is proven they did it regardless of the knowledge the patient will DIE when they dont get this treatment payed; They get rewarded anyway. And i know this is a terrible thing to say, but if you think this is not the case, you are wrong and need to get your facts straight.

The System Obama is trying to establish there is far more like that of those countries that can't even see you from how far up they are on the health-care quality ranking, and still everyone screams bloody murder and behave like undead Stalin is going to eat your children when you let it pass. It's outragously hilarious from a european point of view, i tell you, and yet so very sad. I didn't read the whole bill, and i doubt anybody here did... in fact i doubt most of those people that going to decide if it passes or not did either. But your healthcare hardly can get any worse from what i do know... And trust me, i *really* want it to get better from how it is now, i really do, because far to often the prices american friends had to pay for basic medicine has made my stomach turn because i would pay lousy 6€ for it at max, which is why i do honestly care for the whole thing...

I respect your opinion, but the US has the best medical system in the world, the best technology as well; the problem lies within government itself and the way lobbyist have all the power over it.

Edit: We need a Free Market alternative, not a big brother solution that is doomed to fail.

[Tierbook]

Well I guess its a good way to raise unemployment. They can just cut everyone down and hire more to make up the hours. Im not being serious lol.

- - - Updated - - -



I'll get flamed for this but Healthcare isn't a human right. You have the right to your life, liberty and freedom of speech, not the right to other individuals property (taxation, coercion into providing Healthcare for employees).

The root of the problem lies in corruption within Washington. Special interests, Lobbyists and Wall street seek to profit from this bill, not the people.

gotta agree with you there healthcare is about as much a human right as having a way to make food for yourself. That is to say you can obtain it but most would prefer to pay those that trained to provide such services, because of how useful it is.

[Kivimetsan]

This sucks but I need to go to work so I can pay my super cheap free market alternative Australian healthcare insurance which is also completely voluntary for employers to offer to employees and completely voluntary for individuals to purchase without an employee being forced either (my parents job package contains free healthcare, which is in no way enforced over here. I think Aus takes the place of the land of the free in this debate).

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gotta agree with you there healthcare is about as much a human right as having a way to make food for yourself. That is to say you can obtain it but most would prefer to pay those that trained to provide such services, because of how useful it is.

Yeah man. I don't see how its a human right to expect other people to pay for your birth control. Is it really worth trading another level of freedom just so you don't have to pay $10 a month or whatever it is so you don't get knocked up. If that's the case, then I expect the bill to also contain free condoms for every sex crazed male out there. It goes both ways.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Many of the more controversial issues were left up to the states, like birth control.

[Kivimetsan]

Many of the more controversial issues were left up to the states, like birth control.

That's nice of them.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ahhh the "Gotta go to work card" Whatever fits your paranoid mind.

[Eroginous]

On another topic:

Lets address the morality of the bill. Do you guys think its justifiable to force employers to pay employees healthcare? Because from what iv heard, the best way around ObamaCare is by cutting people hours down to 20perweek.

For me, the bill exploits the tendencies for the majority of society who believe they are entitled to other peoples property. I think its immoral.

For me, the wealthy corporate interests exploit poor people's desperation for jobs to the point where they're willing to work for poverty wages and lack of healthcare. Our economy is basically legalized slavery.

Also, if the law said 'you must provide basic healthcare to all your employees' that's not stealing anything from anyone. It's the cost of doing business. You're already forced to pay people a minimum wage, workman's comp, and liability insurance. Adding healthcare to that is really just giving everyone a much deserved break.

More people in the healthcare system = lower overall costs of healthcare, increased productivity, and more people contributing to the economy.

There is no downside, unless you really believe someone is coming to your house to smash your piggy bank so that people can go see a doctor when they are sick.

[Cthulhu 2020]

For me, the wealthy corporate interests exploit poor people's desperation for jobs to the point where they're willing to work for poverty wages and lack of healthcare. Our economy is basically legalized slavery.

Also, if the law said 'you must provide basic healthcare to all your employees' that's not stealing anything from anyone. It's the cost of doing business. You're already forced to pay people a minimum wage, workman's comp, and liability insurance. Adding healthcare to that is really just giving everyone a much deserved break.

More people in the healthcare system = lower overall costs of healthcare, increased productivity, and more people contributing to the economy.

There is no downside, unless you really believe someone is coming to your house to smash your piggy bank so that people can go see a doctor when they are sick.

Wait, so you mean lowering our dependency ratio and increasing our GDP and lowering our deficit is as easy as making sure people get affordable health care?

I think people who scream "omg theft!" really don't even realize the long term effects of a universal health care system.

[Grizzly Willy]

So my 2nd amendment is invalid on this website?

Edit: Also why is everyone intent on derailing threads all the time? Why can't you for example address what I said, jeeeez. Everyone focus's on trivial little sentences rather than the whole picture, its seriously stupid.

Your right to arms is invalid here? Are you thinking of the first amendment?

And your mention of death panels, unless verifiable, is nonsense and makes you out to be wildly uninformed on the subject.

[Felya]

And your mention of death panels, unless verifiable, is nonsense and makes you out to be wildly uninformed on the subject.

It doesn't exist. From 2009:

http://youtu.be/JPa19PgTxZc