"Melee friendly encounters..."

[Ranganathan]

While watching the dev chat yesterday many players lol'ed at the line "melee friendly encounters" while having PTSD style flashbacks to Nazgrim and Dark Shaman wipes.

Insider just put up a piece on the matter: http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/10/09/ho...dly/#continued

Which kinda nails it for me.

A commentor noted that there are three kinds of encounters, basically: Patchwerk, clear ranged advantage, and stack on the tank. Any fights that require target switching clearly advantage ranged, to the detriment of melee. Either the switch is close, so it doesn't affect anyone really, save combo point users, or the switch is at a distance, which clearly disadvantages melee. Stack on the tank/boss fights don't adversely affect anyone.

So what do you ladies think? What makes for a fun, but honestly melee friendly fight?

[Memory]

It's difficult to make a fight that is specifically melee friendly (i.e. that is not equally friendly towards all of the damage dealers).

One mechanic that made certain fights more friendly to melee than casters was pushback. Given that melee weren't disadvantaged for other reasons, which is common to happen. Teron Gorefiend comes to mind.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

A fight that doesn't punish you for being a warrior who can't wield a a bow.

As long as melee can get around when switching targets fairly quickly and not suffer one shot one kill abilities cause we are meleeing the boss, I think we're good.

[NightZero88]

Only thing I can really think of is Thok. It favors melee as most range are casters that get screwed by the screech. That being said, the kite phase favors range and not melee so hunters are the people who make out best here. But silences are really the only way to punish range and not melee.

Edit: I guess constant movement benefits melee more than ranged as well.

[Rustedsaint]

Well I see dark shamans as not being melee friendly, nagazim seems preety melee friendly all you got to do is watch out for the ravager.
and thok is totaly melee friendly. (melee on jailer range on thok kite phase)

[Forgettable]

Movement heavy fights where you don't really have any downtime on the boss favor melee. Durumu and Shamans come to mind.

[Schmeebs]

Only thing I can really think of is Thok. It favors melee as most range are casters that get screwed by the screech. That being said, the kite phase favors range and not melee so hunters are the people who make out best here. But silences are really the only way to punish range and not melee.

Edit: I guess constant movement benefits melee more than ranged as well.

Interrupts not silenes as silences affect Shamans, and DKs, and I believe theres still some Paladin abilities you can't use while silenced, but I could be wrong.

[Breccia]

Fun and melee friendly? Hmm...Galakras?

"We need to split the party. Hey melee, how about you guys go up to the top of that tower, which is about six inches across? The boss does a frontal cone, but since you're melee, you have to take two steps, tops, to avoid it. Ranged, stay down here and focus fire the totems, banners and shamen."

Seriously, I think that fight might actually be one of the best balanced in all respects I can think of offhand without skimming through wowhead or eating chocolate. You have things for two tanks to do other than swap on XXX stacks, a variety of things to beat on in different ways, burst damage, NPCs you can heal (good idea?), stuns, interrupts, getting out of the fire, getting into the fire, and a fight scene on a tower roof smaller than a picnic blanket that leads to a vehicle UI. And the knockbacks on the roof are definitely pro-melee. Warrior? Charge. Rogue? Shadowstep. Boomkin? Um...backstage concert to my favorite group, 50-Yard Plunge Into Prickly Pear Cactus, and their opening act Jagged Rocks. And the attack itself is physical which, again, favors melee. It's a niche, but a niche I like to scratch. Bah dum, tish.

The "Blizzard Hates Melee" mantra continues to circle my guild with the "it's funny because it's true" off-hand attack for 50% damage that follows. But they're trying, at least. They know there's a problem, and they're trying. And they are having some small measure of success. It's a start.

[DakonBlackblade]

Well I see dark shamans as not being melee friendly, nagazim seems preety melee friendly all you got to do is watch out for the ravager.
and thok is totaly melee friendly. (melee on jailer range on thok kite phase)

If youre using the 3 tanks/3 healers strategie Dark Shaman can be super melee friendly, you get a melee DPS to the team with 2 healers and 2 tanks and the iron tombs (if its heroic mode if its not it doesnt matter) will only ever target both healers (if theyre not on melee range) and the melee will stay the entire fight sitting on the boss and having to deal with nothing but the ocasional foul stream.

[Darsithis]

I agree. I can't think of any fights that specifically are a melee favorite that are subpar for ranged. I mean, there are nearly tank & spank fights like Sha of Pride, where everyone is stacked for 98% of the fight time...but most of the time it's a real kick in the ass for us melee.

[arcaneshot]

I agree. I can't think of any fights that specifically are a melee favorite that are subpar for ranged.

Except the quote was specifically 'melee-friendly', not 'favored'. Had they really said 'favored' there would be grounds to have issues with it, but as things go, those two things are not the same.

[Rivin]

Well, I don't think of melee-friendly and ranged-friendly as mutually exclusive. If you just consider "melee-friendly" to be "doesn't punish you for being melee", there's plenty of fights that are melee-friendly. They're just...almost always easier as ranged.

[Giscoicus]

I would say that comparitively, Siege is very melee friendly.

Immerseus is fine for melee, ample time to get to spawns.
Protectors is fine as well, only time it is hard to be melee is when you are stacked for inferno strike and you get Sha Sear, but the short duration of it means most ranged wont really get to do much by the time it is done, unless they are just spamming instants.
Norushen is fine as melee.
Sha of Pride is fine as melee, barely move at all, ranged have to move to unlock prisons and cannot dps while doing so in most cases, melee gotta move to kill the add.
Galakras is fine as melee if you aren't messing up, again most ranged cant do much when moving for flames. Melee can kill the banner as well.
Juggernaut is fine as melee.
Dark Shamans can suck for melee. it is significantly more dancing than pretty much any other fight besides Safety Dance. It depends on the strategy, but I have found I have a much better time if I at least use Q and E to strafe around the boss. Unless the tank isnt moving it correctly, then you can move left or right without messing up dps. The poison spawns can be a pain, depending on spawn.
General can suck for melee. While they are up front to smash the banner, some melee classes can really suffer from constant add switching. Warriors are fine at going from boss to adds, and rogues shouldnt have a huge issue getting over there, but Paladins, Death Knights and Shamans dont really have a ton of means for very quick movement. Death Knights and Paladins have talents that can give a boost, but that is still a sacrificed talent point and they have a cd (don't know how relevant the cooldown time is)
Malkorok isnt really nice to anybody.
Spoils does have some dancing, and depending on the class melee can get alot more cleave going.
Thok is very melee friendly in phase 1, then in phase 2 it evens out with melee being on jailer and ranged actually getting on thok.

I cant say much past that point, since wing 4 isnt open on flex, but it is all in all melee friendly. part of being melee is dancing. Your dps isnt effected whatsoever by movement as long as you stay in melee range. That is why melee dance more than ranged. If ranged had to dance as much, they would be interrupted constantly. That is why KJC was nerfed. Ranged shouldnt be running freely left and right. Thats their sacrifice as ranged. You can stay back, but if you gotta move good luck doing much. Melee can keep moving, but as a result blizzard makes it so that melee will be moving. It was unfair on stuff like Tortos where people would stack ranged to kill the spawns, or on Council of the Elders because one boss kept rolling out of melee range and they needed to chase him, not just dance.

[l33t]

Dunno what dev team are smoking. In my opinion, SoO is the pinnacle of melee unfriendliness. We have rogue and enh sham in our 10 man raid, they are dying of oneshots even on every thrash pack, and bosses like Dark Shamans are a plain pain and humiliation for melee, lol. Not to mention that almost every boss has add-switch mechanics of some sort, which by default hurt melees a lot more.
I think Blizzard favors ranged too much this content (and previous one too). Really melee-friendly bosses ended with Wrath, I think. And spreading bullshit in their interviews isn't making the matter better in any way.

And the knockbacks on the roof are definitely pro-melee. Warrior? Charge. Rogue? Shadowstep.

Paladin? Bubble+HS. Enh sham? Die and self rez. Cat? Shift to bear, enraged regen, shift to caster, moonfire, shift to cat, put bleeding, shift to caster, go heart+tranq, shift to whale, get drown out of fantastic gameplay lol. DK? Please die, noone loves you. Monk? Respec to healer. Oh, the level of melee friendliness.

[Deleted]

As I'm playing no melee dps myself, I'm wondering if this isn't just the greener grass on the other side.
I would define a "melee unfriendly" fight as a fight that has more mechanics which especially annoy melee dps more than range dps.

Thinking about Throne of Thunder, the following boss fights are "melee unfriendly" by this definition:
Horridon and Dark Animus Phase 1
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have only been there in LFR once with my enhancement shaman)
And Horridon HC has the single most annoying mechanic in this raid instance, the pink direhorn, which prefers Range DPS as a target. So probably not melee unfriendly on HC.

Melee unfriendly fights in SoO Normal:
(maybe) Galakras, Dark Shamans, (maybe) Spoils
Again, correct me, if I'm wrong.

Doesn't seem too Melee unfriendly for me. And there are some fights which are range unfriendly. (Megaera and Twins knockback comes to mind)

I don't get what this "Melees have it harder" mentality is coming from in this expansion, as there are pretty annoying and disrupting mechanics only targeting range DPS all over the place.
Maybe it's because I'm a Moonkin and have to interrupt my casting more often than other classes in favor of moving out of a void zone but I don't think so.

So can someone explain this?

[Giscoicus]

Dunno what dev team are smoking. In my opinion, SoO is the pinnacle of melee unfriendliness. We have rogue and enh sham in our 10 man raid, they are dying of oneshots even on every thrash pack, and bosses like Dark Shamans are a plain pain and humiliation for melee, lol. Not to mention that almost every boss has add-switch mechanics of some sort, which by default hurt melees a lot more.
I think Blizzard favors ranged too much this content (and previous one too). Really melee-friendly bosses ended with Wrath, I think. And spreading bullshit in their interviews isn't making the matter better in any way.



Paladin? Bubble+HS. Enh sham? Die and self rez. Cat? Shift to bear, enraged regen, shift to caster, moonfire, shift to cat, put bleeding, shift to caster, go heart+tranq, shift to whale, get drown out of fantastic gameplay lol. DK? Please die, noone loves you. Monk? Respec to healer. Oh, the level of melee friendliness.

Melee are not interrupted by dancing around a boss. Ranged are. Melee should be dancing. Ranged shouldnt be dancing as much, because that interrupts their casting constantly (except hunters).

Melee friendly means that it doesnt hurt to have a melee, like it did in Throne where melee were just no use on some fights.

It would be stupidly easy if melee didnt need to dance whatsoever. It is one thing when you cant be near the boss or add, but expecting to not dance is just begging for faceroll tunneling.

Also, have your rogue respec so he can reach adds fast with cloak and dagger or something. Enhancement shaman alright, they arent the most speedy. Rogues have more than enough movement

[Murderdoll]

Well I see dark shamans as not being melee friendly, nagazim seems preety melee friendly all you got to do is watch out for the ravager.
and thok is totaly melee friendly. (melee on jailer range on thok kite phase)

Nazgrim is not really melee "friendly". But it comes down to how adds are handled in your group. If you have a strong ranged group who can handle adds without melee swapping off than its fine. Personally in my raid group. Im in charge of War Banners and Interupts on Shamans and we also get behind on adds sometimes. I am quite often running from one end of the room to the other non stop in a Adds/Banner/Boss frenzy. Its...its not a punishing fight because DPS here is not really key its more Burst at the right times. But its very tiresome and it could be done a lot easier with all ranged.

I dont think any fight is particularly melee bias (apart from Shaman - that downright punishes you for picking melee), its just that 99% of fights can be done easier with ranged and then that translates into the players minds and more importantly, raid leaders minds that melee are unwanted. SoO has a lot of fights that could be done a hell of a lot easier if everyone brought a ranged DPS.

I find myself playing a lot more defensive in SoO.

[Giscoicus]

As I'm playing no melee dps myself, I'm wondering if this isn't just the greener grass on the other side.
I would define a "melee unfriendly" fight as a fight that has more mechanics which especially annoy melee dps more than range dps.

Thinking about Throne of Thunder, the following boss fights are "melee unfriendly" by this definition:
Horridon and Dark Animus Phase 1
(Correct me if I'm wrong, I have only been there in LFR once with my enhancement shaman)
And Horridon HC has the single most annoying mechanic in this raid instance, the pink direhorn, which prefers Range DPS as a target. So probably not melee unfriendly on HC.

Melee unfriendly fights in SoO Normal:
(maybe) Galakras, Dark Shamans, (maybe) Spoils
Again, correct me, if I'm wrong.

Doesn't seem too Melee unfriendly for me. And there are some fights which are range unfriendly. (Megaera and Twins knockback comes to mind)

I don't get what this "Melees have it harder" mentality is coming from in this expansion, as there are pretty annoying and disrupting mechanics only targeting range DPS all over the place.
Maybe it's because I'm a Moonkin and have to interrupt my casting more often than other classes in favor of moving out of a void zone but I don't think so.

So can someone explain this?

They want to not dance as much like ranged. But while still doing the damage of ranged.

When ranged need to dance, they cant do damage. When melee need to dance, they stay in melee range and keep attacking. Dark shamans is very much a moving fight, but they can stay in melee range as long as they change positioning.

[Ryme]

It's not enough to say "Oh, well, a couple of these fights melee work ok on, one or two their good at" when at the other end of the scale you have "Melee are clearly inferior to range" on the rest - if only because the reverse for ranged isn't true, they are good on every fight, some they're brilliant on.

In a perfect world, it would be time to introduce ranged specs to all who currently do not possess them.

[Giscoicus]

Nazgrim is not really melee "friendly". But it comes down to how adds are handled in your group. If you have a strong ranged group who can handle adds without melee swapping off than its fine. Personally in my raid group. Im in charge of War Banners and Interupts on Shamans and we also get behind on adds sometimes. I am quite often running from one end of the room to the other non stop in a Adds/Banner/Boss frenzy. Its...its not a punishing fight because DPS here is not really key its more Burst at the right times. But its very tiresome and it could be done a lot easier with all ranged.

I dont think any fight is particularly melee bias (apart from Shaman - that downright punishes you for picking melee), its just that 99% of fights can be done easier with ranged and then that translates into the players minds and more importantly, raid leaders minds that melee are unwanted. SoO has a lot of fights that could be done a hell of a lot easier if everyone brought a ranged DPS.

Melee and range have always had the same limitations. Stand away from danger, but gotta cast and moving makes your dps drop vs stand close and hit rapidly, but you gotta be moving, and being out of range makes your dps drop.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not enough to say "Oh, well, a couple of these fights melee work ok on, one or two their good at" when at the other end of the scale you have "Melee are clearly inferior to range" on the rest - if only because the reverse for ranged isn't true, they are good on every fight, some they're brilliant on.

Any fight with significant dancing for the whole raid group sucks for ranged. Part of the reason KJC was nerfed. Look at Durumu as an example. Ranged cant do much during the maze, while melee can continue bashing his face in. Tortos? melee cannot help the turtles at all, but ranged gotta dance from rockfalls and interrupt casts doing so.