Why don't you raid normal/heroic?

[Deleted]

I find it kind of hard to believe that most people here can't commit four solid hours because of their jobs. Do you guys have shifting days and work 80+ hours a week where you literally don't know what your schedule is and at any given minute of a day you could be at work?

Its simple priorities. I come home from work. After I go for a run, make dinner, change clothes etc, I've got 4-5 hours spare. But hey, maybe my friends want to meet me in town for a drink or two. Or my housemates want to watch a few episodes of that TV series we're in the middle of. Or I just wanna unwind and play other video games, or read a book, or...

Sure I might feel like a good 3-4 hour raid the odd time. But that's not gonna be enough to satisfy any half decent raiding guild that I could apply to.

[iamthedevil]

I want my own guild bank :x

[EntropyJim]

I was in a 25 man raiding guild in TBC and Wrath. The guild started to fall apart at the end of Wrath (after LK was down) and exploded in Cata. A lot of players left because they'd had enough of wow, as they'd been playing since Vanilla. Some still pop on, sub for a couple months and then leave but they are 'raided out'.

I started to play because my friends played. I'm GM of a dead guild on Agamaggan, and in a small friends guild on Bladefist. I don't want to leave my friends guild to join a raiding guild, so I don't raid normal/heroic. Secondly, I now have two small children and where I used to have a job that was very flexible, I now need to be at work at 8.30am on the dot, so late nights can't be a regular thing like they used to be.

I do raid LFR and I've found that oQueue is the lifeline I needed to get into tougher, better organised raids.

TL;DR Life changed, can't commit time, like playing with friends.

[Aruhen]

Biggest reason is that most of the friends I used to raid with don't play WoW anymore and I can't be bothered to go through the hassle of joining a half decent guild anymore. That and I don't really feel like having more than one raid day a week even tho I do have the time for it. I would rather just log in and play at my own pace with a friend or two.

I'm content with what I do nowdays since I don't raid like before as I mostly do random BGS or just just something that pops in my head like a flex raid or transmog run. I won't lie that I miss the pre-cata raids that I did with my friends but nothing you can do as those people moved on.

[Demoneq]

For me it's a schedule thing - I RP quite a lot nowadays, and don't feel like dedicating 2-3 fixed days every week to raiding (hence why I sort of have two mains, RP main, who is all cool for RP, but a bit meh with their class raiding-wise for me, and pve main).
Difficulty wouldn't probably be an issue (I used to raid in WotLK, 11/12 ICC10 HC, and Cata - only normals, because my WotLK-time guild struggled and eventually disbanded, then I raided some Firelands with a new one, got burned out, took a break, and returned some months later for RP, switching mains and factions).

So, a mix of schedule and burnout on raiding, I guess.

Although I still put quite serious effort into my pve main - enchants and gems are a given, but also got some pieces from Ordos (upgraded them with Valor), crafted gear, and working on the legendary cloak (swapped mains, old one has it already, so I could smack Ordos anyway). I also talked to a non-RP guild my pve main is in, and if they get around to organise non-progression raids into Siege normal in the future, I'll probably join to get a shot at the 5.4-kill-only mount (My gear and hopefully skill should be good enough for it, so I wouldn't call it getting carried, maybe only Normal experience-wise, at worst).

[Deleted]

Two reasons for me. First, I just don't like the raids in MoP (everything full with visual noise). Second, I can't spend so much time in raids right now.

[Deleted]

Can you not commit to any form of schedule, be it a small commitment or large?
Are you not interested in the harder difficulties in a game?
Can you not find other players to raid with?
Are you afraid of, or personally not good enough to participate in the harder difficulties?
Do the rewards, and the prospect of a stronger character not interest you?

None of your reasons, maybe the last one a bit.

I was a raider in Vanilla and TBC, I was in a guild that didn't have any requirements about raid attendance, but still raided 4 nights a week and cleared MC, BWL, AQ20, ZG and was in AQ40 when TBC was released.
In TBC we had a raid attendance of 1 raid each week and killed Vashj, Kael, cleared MH and almost killed Illidan before 3.0.
Same in Wrath - killed Sartharion 3D before Ulduar was released.
The raids were challenging, but also rewarding for me, whithout beeing forced to sacrifice too much time and there was always a new boss, I haven't seen before, to kill.

And now?
I can join a guild raiding normals, but this is just simple farming of content without any real challenge and drama as soon as you have to wipe more then a few times, while I'm used to wipe more then 100 times on certain bosses.
As a player used to casual, but very focused raids with skilled players, I just don't feel comfortable in this kind of guilds where people can't be bothered to level professions, gem / enchant ... their gear and hunters not even knowing how to misdirect ...
There might be some good players, but the rest is usually just bad. I tried it several times, but no, I want challenges in raids and not stupid farming for gear, that I don't care about.

I could ofc join a guild raiding heroics, but although I searched, have I not found a guild that demands less then 3 raids a week. I can promise to raid once a week, sometimes maybe twice, but not more. In Vanilla, TBC and beginning of Wrath that was enough to join a raid guild going for some challenging raids, but nowadays it's not. So it's not an option for me.

Another reason is, that I already missed the 40men raids in TBC, 25 was ok and I understand that it was better, but I can't get used to 10men. It doesn't feel like raiding for me. My first dungeon when I hit 60, was UBRS with 15 players ... yes, 15 players and it was a dungeon.
And there are almost no 25men guilds left, especially none that are raiding normals.

And another big problem is for me, that you are more or less expected to also do LFR and now Flex, if you want to join a raid guild. But for me one of the special moments ingame was always seeing a boss for the first time, knowing that you'll spend maybe several weeks trying to kill this monster and then finally succeed. Nowadays you usually have killed him already several times, before seeing him in the heroic version. The epic feeling got lost for me.

Those are the main reasons why I only play WoW for a few months and then unsub again.
In Vanilla, TBC and beginning of Wrath was I known on my server for beeing a good healer, was asked by our Top Guild to help them out, even on progression fights, when they were short on healers and had lots of fun and challenges to tackle.
Nowaday there is no real challenge in PVE if you can't commit at least 3 nights each week (and additional farming) for raiding and it really makes me sad.

[Unionoob]

got full time job and can't be bothered to have something scheduled something in game where I have to show up at certain time.

[numnumm]

Busy with IRL stuff

[Deleted]

I prefer flex over normal for three reasons:

_ I only play with my gf. In normal raids, there are lots of time when the raid leader will ask one of us to step out because 11-13 people signe for the event. It's not a problem in flex.
_ With flex, casual friends can join and have fun with you, even if they aren't the best players ever. In normal, you often have to tell them "Sorry, the team does 200k dps and you only 120k" or "sorry, you're a <class x> and we rather have <class y>" or "sorry, you're a melee and we already have 2, we will take a range instead" etc. etc.
_ No loot drama in flex.

Flex = fun and relax.
Normal = unfriendly.

And yeah, imho they could very well scrap normal raids and have only:

_ LFR for people that want instant boss without all the socialization and learning tacts needed
_ Flex to play in a structured way with guildies (it doesn't have to be a faceroll: first bosses could be easy while the last ones be hard)
_ Heroics for hardcores that want a true challenge.

[Deleted]

Because I got tired of incompetent "leaders". Made me own guild with a few friends and we're having a blast in HC.

[Kudos]

I didn't raid normal modes for 2 content patches after my raiding guild died and disbanded. I decided to switch factions and level a new character. When I was finally level 90, it was difficult to get into a decently progressed guild, as many were already on heroic modes, and I was still in Valor 522 gear, mixed with LFR gear. This was despite having previous heroic mode achievements.

It's not an issue now. Gear reset with Patch 5.4 (thanks to the ease of Timeless 535 gear) made it easy to find a decent guild and start raiding again.

[SodiumChloride]

The lack of success most guilds have comes down to the fact that they establish a group full of players that barely qualify.

That's the thing, unless you are a "turn-coat" who constantly seek out the greenest pastures that will accept you, you will probably stay with whichever guild you joined first out of royalty and this guild may have people who just can't be bothered and/or don't share you ambition.

It's a lot of "work" for the sake of pretty pixels.

[Deleted]

That's the thing, unless you are a "turn-coat" who constantly seek out the greenest pastures that will accept you, you will probably stay with whichever guild you joined first out of royalty and this guild may have people who just can't be bothered and/or don't share you ambition.

It's a lot of "work" for the sake of pretty pixels.

On the other hand, whilst striving for the rewards the game has to offer, yes you may be forced to leave the guild you're in, but will most definitely meet more fantastic people and create more friendships along the way.

Nothing stays the same forever.

[Deleted]

My problem is finding 9 other people I can raid with. I am on an RP server that is supposedly medium pop, but has only about 10 guilds that raid. I am in one that is on the middle of that list in terms of current progression (8/14N) but still we struggle to find 10 people to show up on raid night. Competent people lack interest; keen ones have transferred guild or, lately, server). I guess I should also transfer server, but that's a big step - socially and in terms of cost.

I haven't done heroic because the few times I've tried it (e.g. Cata first tier), it just seemed far far above what I or my guild could cope with in terms of throughput. And it didn't seem sufficiently fun or rewarding to merit the pain. (I've killed the boss, why should I kill him again?) I guess I am casual in that competitive raiding - chasing ranks etc - doesn't interest me. I focus on trying to complete a tier before the next one comes out, which is a big enough struggle given attendance/recruitment problems.

[Deleted]

On the other hand, whilst striving for the rewards the game has to offer, yes you may be forced to leave the guild you're in, but will most definitely meet more fantastic people and create more friendships along the way.

Nothing stays the same forever.

Either way nothing changes as far as completion rates overall go.

If you are a good player in a mediocre raid guild and stay, your personal progress will be lower, but theres will be slightly higher.

If you are a good player who moves to a good raid guild, your personal progress will go up, and the people who you lefts progress will go down.

One thing that I have found (almost!) universally true is that better players are terrible to be around and pretty discordant to any group they are in. Basically you can get by in one of several ways - friendly, helpful, funny, knowledgeable, great player...... buuut if you are amazing you don't need to cultivated good humour, friendliness etc because you can just lean on your ability as the source of your value to others.

Not that you don't find good player who are also fun and friendly, it's just much more likely they will be dicks. Add pressure to get more progress and it's a recipe for heartburn.

I don't raid HC modes for this very reason. The rewards simply aren't in line with the effort and never could be. There is no reward that makes up for putting up with bad people or having to ditch people you like for. The need to exclude that has to be there to ge normal modes done I have put up with as a neccessary but annoying evil, but as soon as flexi arrived, normals became a dim and distant afterthought.

Another random thought - you are never going to be as good a friend to someone who you are willing to replace at the drop of a pixel than someone you plan on sticking around. It's a backwards rationalisation of using people to advance.

[Deleted]

Another random thought - you are never going to be as good a friend to someone who you are willing to replace at the drop of a pixel than someone you plan on sticking around. It's a backwards rationalisation of using people to advance.

This depends on what kind of guild you want to place yourself in. Do Business, make friendships?

I've been in the situation though where the guild was very friendly but also successful - There was one player who severely let the group down and was being carried. I think in that scenario, it is fair to replace as the individual was letting 9 others down.

Each to their own ideals, though.

[Deleted]

This depends on what kind of guild you want to place yourself in. Do Business, make friendships?

Now you are changing he terms of the original argument. If you are treating raiding like it's a business arrangement, you ain't making friends.

I've been in the situation though where the guild was very friendly but also successful - There was one player who severely let the group down and was being carried. I think in that scenario, it is fair to replace as the individual was letting 9 others down.

Each to their own ideals, though.

Oh for sure. But you must recognise that's a hole with no bottom. In any group theres always someone better, until you wind up at the best player in the world and 9 slightly less good ones he has to tolerate to get by. it never changes, so why bother?

For pixels?

At the cost of treating other human beings like a stepping stone to get you what you want and if they don't, ditch them asap? Not a great life lesson to be teaching yourself. just imo, ofc.

[Deleted]

Now you are changing he terms of the original argument. If you are treating raiding like it's a business arrangement, you ain't making friends.


Oh for sure. But you must recognise that's a hole with no bottom. In any group theres always someone better, until you wind up at the best player in the world and 9 slightly less good ones he has to tolerate to get by. it never changes, so why bother?

For pixels?

At the cost of treating other human beings like a stepping stone to get you what you want and if they don't, ditch them asap? Not a great life lesson to be teaching yourself. just imo, ofc.

I'll use football as an argument.

Teams start somewhere, but not at the top. In order to be successful the team needs to work with each other and play as a team, create friendships and understandings. Along the way though, in order to progress you will need to sell the poorer quality and buy better quality. (Unless the poorer quality trains to a better level, of course).

I'm not saying that this is a good principle to live by for friendships, no. But there's a level of maturity and understanding involved when making progress.

This is only the case for progress that's harder to make and achievements that are harder to reach.


Flex and LFR exist exactly for the opposite argument.
Neither are right or wrong - It's not black and white.



Edit : The "For Pixels" argument - You could say the same. "Did you really replace that staff member so we could earn more money? Was it worth it for money?"

We all value things differently in life.

[Evilfish]

I'm in a PVP guild. We simply lack the manpower interested in doing raids in general. And TBH I do too, I enjoy the game's story, so LFR lets me experience it in full without the devotion required by "professional" raiding.