I don't get why all these people who don't do LFR because they raid normal/heroic whine about something that they aren't doing something anyway.
Something that a LOT of players in wow do, because they either can't always come to a raid twice a week or aren't good enough to do even flex, LFR is the place where they go.
About gear from LFR, this is a lot below flex/normal/heroic gear. LFR people don't get the same gear as flex/normal/heroic raiders, so i don't get why they are even acting so jaelous towards LFR people, the people that have lesser gear than the flex/normal/heroic raiders.
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i dont know what ridiculously high standards you mean, i dont really need to do flex ever but a couple times ive done it, i dont think have people with 530 ilvl+ doing 60k dps is anywhere near acceptable by any players standards. which is probably why the bar is set high, because people who refuse to even try like its LFR ruin it for the people who possibly WANT to learn.
But to OP if LFR were to be removed, i would propose casual players, who want to raid learn how to not keyboard and study their class. i guess you can somewhat consider me a casual, as i really only log on for raid, and were currently 3/14H. the way i see it, if you have enough time to sit in a 30 minute queue, wipe to a boss until you have the appropriate amount of stacks of determination to make the boss a bigger joke, wait in between bosses for another tank to connect, and do this 4 times EVERY WEEK (for each wing). you have enough time to study a class, learn a fight, and attempt to progress as a player and a raider.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
Solo scenarios that have multiple difficulties sorta like the system for proving grounds (bronze, silver, gold, endless) that is challenging (less so than the warlock green fire quest but still pretty tough) at the max difficulty and awards gear using random rolls sort of thing that has a new stat that boosts your damage and damage reduction in these special scenarios. This would prevent gear overlap so raiders don't feel forced into getting this gear in order to be super competitive with other raiding guilds.
I want to add that these would be LONG scenarios as well with multiple boss fights culminating in one super cool end boss. Since they are solo though there will be certain checkpoints throughout so that if you need to leave after the first 30 minutes of a 2 hour scenario you aren't forced to start over again. This promotes the idea of being able to come in whenever and progress as far as you want without feeling like you HAVE to succeed before your free time is up.
MMOs really were not designed for people who cant dedicate time to them. Very few can manage this and wow is up there on the list. The only other I can think of is runescape because its mostly single player.
Agreed, but Blizzard didn't want to create 5-mans for casuals. There are only 6 new 5-mans for MoP. Assuming you didn't do them while leveling up, you will probably have worked your way through every single one of them in under a week at level cap, even playing one or two hours a night. After that? Unsubscribe. That's why Blizzard gave casuals raids. They didn't want to create more dungeons, so they watered down the raid and threw it to casuals as pity content. I agree with you that it was a bad idea, but I understand the reasoning behind it. Without LFR there is very little in the way of content for casuals this expansion. Collecting pets? They pretty much nerfed that this expansion with the introduction of pet battles. Pokemon is a one-time fee and has a much more compelling plot to go with the pet battles. Pets used to be something that you had to look for and grind towards. Now they're just check boxes that you tick off your to-do list.
Sorry, but My Little Panda Island Adventure and Pokemon just isn't going to retain subs. Honestly I don't think that LFR is retaining subs very well either.
I have news for you. Blizzard considers them raiders too. That's why the name of the tool you use to queue is "Raid Finder." You can cry yourself to sleep at night with the comforting thought that those players aren't really raiding but ultimately Blizzard decides what is and isn't raiding in their game. Also, casuals need better gear as the expansion goes on just like raiders do. That's how your character progresses and grows in power. Those goats on the stupid cooking dailies used to headbutt my shaman two or three times before I could kill them. Now most of the time they can't even get one head butt off. That's because I got better gear. The same thing happens to raids. When I was doing heroic raids in Cataclysm my guild got to the point where we could bounce the ping pong ball ten times and kill Zon'ozz in one go when we finally let it hit him. That's in contrast to our first kill where we couldn't take more than 5-7 bounces at a time, had to let the ball hit him multiple times, and barely squeaked by the enrage. Casual players crave that same sense of power just as much as raiders do. That's what keeps them subbed: the idea that their character is going to be a little more powerful next week than they were this week.
What does that have to do with raids? I agree that the game has devolved from RPG-centric content and into a set of mini-games, and that's a shame. I still don't see what that has to do with making raids accessible.
Exactly. There were tons of things to do, and none had anything to do with "the end game." A group quest (I completely agree that scenarios are just that) is something I want to do once per character. I would redo those to help out a guild mate, but otherwise I don't see the point. There are only so many times that I want to fetch the damn hunter's log or loot pearls from the pond or collect cinder peppers or what have you. I don't need to do that crap over and over and over. It's not fun.
Unfortunately now guilds are for perks and that's it. It used to be that you'd stumble across people while playing, group up with them, and find out you got along with them. That's how guilds were formed. Now you stumble into Stormwind at level 6 and you're instantly spammed by guilds with recruiting addons. Players no longer say, "LF raiding guild," or "LF leveling guild," or "LF casual guild." Instead they say, "LF level 25 guild."
So I agree that you've pointed out many of the problems with the current game, but the question still remains. Without LFR then what? Blizzard has pretty much indicated that they're not going to do raids and 5-mans. It's going to be one or the other.
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Who is asking you to surrender anything? This expansion all the new content has been aimed at raiders. LFR is pity content that isn't even tested before release. They just water down the mechanics and see how painful it is on week 1 of release. After that they nerf the fights that are still too hard for random groups.
I see casuals behave pretty well for the most part. There's always one or two idiots in the bunch, but I've seen plenty of stupidity on both the casual as well as on the raiding side of the aisle.
That's not what the game is about for you. Everyone decides what the game is about themselves. That's the nature of role playing games. Some people power through Zelda to beat Gannon ASAP. Others meticulously win every mini-game and collect every item before finally wrapping up the story. To each their own. You can't tell others how they should be playing because that's their decision to make.
MMORPG =/= Raiding. Maybe for you, but not necessarily for everyone else. You'll just have to accept that.
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Seriously? How many weeks are you going to repeatedly kill the same boss before finally calling it quits? A world boss is a weekly chore that you do until he no longer drops any gear for you. It's not compelling gameplay. Sadly, that's pretty much how I feel about raids too.
Yeah. Fun. Let's endlessly grind generic mobs for gear. That's about as exciting as watching paint dry.
That's fun for like the first day. After that it's just a chore. Again, not a good way to retain subscribers.
Yeah. Because that's new and exciting. It's not like people have been farming mats for 8 years now. Oh, wait, it actually is exactly like that.
That would have been nice if there were more than six of them this expansion. WotLK started out with twice as many and ended with almost three times as many. With only six of them it only takes a week to work through all of them. It gets old and repetitive, kind of like raids, dailies, and world bosses.
Group quests, you mean. I liked those better when you only had to endure them once per character. They're not something I want to do every single day. Every one of them boils down to killing trash for about 20 minutes, killing a boss, and then you're done. Most of the time no healing or tanking is even required.
For the cost of a one month sub I can buy an old Pokemon title and do pet battles forever without having to pony up $15 per month. Adding these to WoW was actually a pretty big waste of resources on Blizzard's part, IMO.
Except no one does them because there is no gear associated with them. Unfortunately I can't do those if no one will queue for them.
Because you don't need raid gear to do that or anything...
So you're telling all those casual PvEers to PvP instead. Seriously?
We've had eight years to do that already. Remember that Blizzard actually wants to retain subscriptions.
Yeah... let's talk about raiding. That's exciting.
Some people do that, but honestly I would rather buy a stock market simulation game if I wanted to do that. Those don't cost $15 per month.
How could I forget?!? After /loving every animal on Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, Outlands, and Northrend, I just can't wait to seek out critters on Pandaria! Again, this was new and exciting 5 years ago. It's not new or exciting now.
That was only part of it. LFR was intended for gearing all along, as Blizzard stated even before they released it:
Source: Raid Finder Q&AQ.Who is Raid Finder for?
A. Raid Finder is primarily intended for players who don’t already raid consistently. These are players who may not have had the opportunity to take part in raid content due to scheduling conflicts, playtime constraints, limited access to other raid-capable players, or a lack of experience with higher-end content. These players may want to experience World of Warcraft’s raid content and storyline without being able to commit to the additional time investment of a raiding guild. The Raid Finder is also a great way to quickly and easily gear up alternate characters without having to worry about raid lockouts.
I have yet to see a non-raider who asked for LFR. Someone tried to show me some posts to prove it once, but upon reading them it was revealed that the poster was a raider who was frustrated with the difficulty of organizing raids. Every single time. I hate to burst that bubble, but casual players never wanted raids and never asked for them.
Of course they want rewards! Otherwise what's the point of the game? There's a reason players gain levels and more powerful gear. That's the game's draw: the false sense of accomplishment. Casual players crave that just as much as raiders.
Well, yes. What else is there to do aside from the repetitive grind fests you suggested above? In fact, I would argue that LFR is as much of a repetitive ground as the rest, except it takes hours to complete so it doesn't feel as repetitive.
Could you tell me what other game I have to pay $15 a month for? No one is asking for their money back, but no one is obligated to keep paying a sub for WoW if Blizzard won't produce content that they can complete on their schedule. For pretty much any other game I get frustrated, I put it down for a month or two, and then I come back to it without having to pony up more cash. Once I have the game it's mine forever. It's not getting nerfed any time soon. That's why this comparison to other games makes no sense.
I sense another player who is tired of the game who might be best served by taking a break from it, and coming back if he remembers what he liked about it.
The days of wanting to join a guild to do PvE and see content are dead. Any guilds still active are filled with people who have played together for eternity, or will fall apart after a tier.
This game is not really worthy of the title "World of Warcraft". World of Warcraft ended when Arthas died, and everything after has been World of Warcraft 2.
Philosophies have changed so drastically after the introduction of the LFG tech, that it changed the entire way the game is played. It's like if the game Risk were changed in 2013 to include a player with a 10 pound paperweight called the "Atomic Bomb", and he just throws it at the board when he has enough units to do so. Same name, different game.
Last edited by Wheeler; 2013-11-04 at 07:58 AM.
From my viewpoint. I was doing LFR since MoP to the end of ToT. And I couldn't accept what type of "play" they created. Just like this, I find that's a big lie that feels something like placebo. Nothing more, and nothing less, but all the game (hardcores, casuals and lazy people) are affected in some way by this tool, transforming World of Wacraft to something more "rare" than what flying mounts did in Cata.I don't get why all these people who don't do LFR because they raid normal/heroic whine about something that they aren't doing something anyway.
Something that a LOT of players in wow do, because they either can't always come to a raid twice a week or aren't good enough to do even flex, LFR is the place where they go.
About gear from LFR, this is a lot below flex/normal/heroic gear. LFR people don't get the same gear as flex/normal/heroic raiders, so i don't get why they are even acting so jaelous towards LFR people, the people that have lesser gear than the flex/normal/heroic raiders.
And because of this, I unsubed. But Blizzcon and hope are pushing me in to this forum to try to know the direction of the new expansion.
Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-11-04 at 09:29 AM.