To people whom want LFR removed: What endgame do you propose for the casual players?

[Deleted]

yep, they are incredibly complex. So are the player priority systems a massive step up from the old rotation systems.

As with all things which are cognitively based or inborn talent based, if you can do it, you never experience a problem and if you can't you can never suceed

So what fight is so incredibly complex now?

Theres a post around somewhere. The number of abilities per boss has tripled since TBC and the number of things to pay attention to on your toon has doubled for most but for some triped (hey locks).

You mean that post that cherry picked and changed its definition of what counts as an ability between expansions and altered to results to skewer the numbers?
Yeah that was a good post.

[Deleted]

Haha, yeah. Raids have for sure gone up in complexity from Vanilla (even though the limitation and sense of incompletion of each class made for its complexity of its own), but Vanilla was the "beta" of WoW, WoW developed from that. I do not think the release state of WoW should be a goal to "as it should be".

Anyone thinking WoW has gotten more complex since the later stages of BC and WotLK probably never played in either.

This is fine, but mid to late TBC was the last time whrn you could get everything done in game just off of effort alone.

Since then you also need skill and ability. Whether this is good or bad is a point of view, but it does detonate thje argument that the modern wow player can just sit there and grit their teeth and clear everything.

[Otimus]

Oh, I never used LFM much because I have friends.


Not talking about my personal experience.




You are wrong.

Proof?

The automated sysem exists, and blizzard says it's because most player couldn't get a group with the odl system.

Stop universalising your own personal experience, you are irrelvent when talking about millions of other people.

Yeah, people most definitely had requirements for HC's back in BC. I can't recall EXACTLY, but I do think people asked for certain amounts of DPS, or something.

Basically, every neat thing WoW has had, has, or will have will be ruined by people wanting to keep others out of it :x

[Deleted]

So what fight is so incredibly complex now?

Compared to the old ones, all of them.

You mean that post that cherry picked and changed its definition of what counts as an ability between expansions and altered to results to skewer the numbers?
Yeah that was a good post.

Yes, it was.

You not liking doesn't mean anything. it was either tryue or false. (it was true, shits more complicated now.)

[Sildor]

Do flex.

10-man normal mode difficulty back in wrath is comparable to flexible raids today (or maybe flex is even easier).

[Deleted]

Oh, I never used LFM much because I have friends.

They cant be so many if it takes you hours to set up a dungeon group.

Not talking about my personal experience.

So you are just making stuff up as usual?

You are wrong.

Proof?

Solid argumentation right there, cant disagree with you.

The automated sysem exists, and blizzard says it's because most player couldn't get a group with the odl system.

Link please. Never heard them say that ever.

Stop universalising your own personal experience, you are irrelvent when talking about millions of other people.

Stop universalising your own personal experience, you are irrelvent when talking about millions of other people.

[JackWest]

Can you please stop with the arguments: "People pay 15$ for the game so they deserve to see the content!"?
That's just stupid. People pay 15$ a month to get the CHANCE at seeing all of the content.
They have a whole month to fly around, see every piece of the land, experience every dungeon they are able to get into or a raid that they can get invited into or set up. Under no circumstances paying 15$ a month should instantly let you see all the raid content that's been created with a minimal if not no effort.
The world is there to witness but YOU need to actually put some effort into it in seeing it.
This "I paid for the game, let me see and kill Garrosh" attitude is literally pissing me off as I constantly see posts that claim that all the people who pay the sub should be getting "equal" chance at seeing the endgame content.
NO, they shouldn't.
Paying the sub shouldn't allow you to "finish" WoW. It should only give you the possibility for doing that if you put enough effort into it.
It is an MMO, there should be some work involved in getting through the content.
And people who keep saying that they just don't have enough time anymore for organized raiding or flex raiding or they just can't stand being on the same TS/Vent channel with other people, guess what?
There are single player games! Yes, if you don't have the time, energy, skill, will to put some effort into playing with other people in a Massive MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing Game then maybe you shouldn't.
Go play Skyrim or some other RPG if you like them so much, at best ask a friend to play with you and play cooperative mode in some single player game. But for Christ sake don't put pressure on the developers so that they make the game fitting more to your lifestyle as you are fu**ing it up for everyone else.
I myself am a GM of a semi-casual guild. We've just killed Klaxxi on normal a week ago and are still progressing Garrosh. Do I have a life? Yes! I'm studying, working part-time and got a GF and still got time to raid 3-4 times a week at evenings. It is perfectly doable. I'm not doing LFR anymore as it is a waste of time and energy for me to keep up with all this cr*p that's going on in there but even if I had less time i still wouldn't do it. I'd rather ransack through flex with a bunch of friends than go and waste hours on playing with people who don't give 2 shi*s about other people playing the game.
Been playing wow since Vanilla and I actually saw every change made to the game since it was released and I'm horrified by the scale of work Blizz has done to make the game a complete pushover.
I recently went on a private vanilla server and remembered how hard was it to actually level, do quests and kill monsters. You could hardly pull 2 mobs at once at low levels, that encouraged learning. Made people learn their class and how the game works BEFORE they achieved max lvl and could raid (it took quite some time from hitting max lvl to being able to raid but that's not the point). Now it's easy peasy all the way to 90 and Blizz is trying to figure out why LFR has problems? People have no idea how to play out their roles at all. Those who have either AFK or just don't even try.
In the process of satisfying "casuals" (I consider myself a casual but people overuse this term lately) Blizz has gone too far and nearly destroyed the sole essence of this game.
WoW has many aspects, most of people will have a chance to see the world, some will have a chance at getting nice gear in dungeons and a really really low margin of people should have a chance at beating the raid bosses on HC, that's how the game should work instead of creating weird LFR or whatnot modes just to make everybody "equall".
This "everyone should be equall" comunist style is literally pissing me off...

Someone to tell the truth as it is. And about "hardness". I have something to add to your vanilla experience on leveling. When I started in late TBC, I remember I had to wait my hp to regen after single mob killed. And now....2 days ago I saw 10 lvl mage killing 36 lvl mob....I mean, come on, is this there we are heading?

[Deleted]

Yeah, people most definitely had requirements for HC's back in BC. I can't recall EXACTLY, but I do think people asked for certain amounts of DPS, or something.

Basically, every neat thing WoW has had, has, or will have will be ruined by people wanting to keep others out of it :x

In a manual grouping world, you took people you knew or who had a rep for being able to play.

You could get a rep on your server and with guilds but it took ages if you were new, and obviously most people when they first start can't play for shit. This meant that most new players tried their first HC, sucked dick and then got put on the blacklist and that was it for them unless they got super persistent or lucky with a friendly group in future.

[Magicalcrab]

Anyone thinking WoW has gotten more complex since the later stages of BC and WotLK probably never played in either.

Complexity does not necessarily imply Depth.

I prefer my games to offer an accessible yet deep experience rather than the opposite.

[Deleted]

Compared to the old ones, all of them.

Good answer. I will take it as you decided to admit being wrong as you could not formulate a single answer to the question.

Yes, it was.

You not liking doesn't mean anything. it was either tryue or false. (it was true, shits more complicated now.)

Or you know, I actually decided to double check the data myself instead of thinking, "This fits my agenda so it must be true!". If you double check all the numbers yourself you will find out how wrong they are.

[Deleted]

They cant be so many if it takes you hours to set up a dungeon group.

It never took me any time at all and I never said it did. It took the gen pop hours to set up groups.

So you are just making stuff up as usual?

No, i'm using data in the form of blue posts.

Solid argumentation right there, cant disagree with you.

But you will anyway because you are more oncerned with looking good and being "right" than learning anything

Link please. Never heard them say that ever.

use google, lazybones. I would but until you prove to me you can change your mind you aren't worth it.

[bondgirl]

Do Flex. Group is found much faster than LFR, thanks to openraid and oqueue. You can pick the players yourself. You can do it with 10ppl. You can't tell me that, if you are a dps, queing up for LFR makes you satisfied to come into a group, after 35+ mins waiting time, just to see they are on the last boss with 5 determinatioon stacks and you know you have another 35mins+ queue infront of you just to get the previous ones down. An organized weekly premade flex (yes, you can put in the effort to once find reliable ppl) is so much lesser of a fuzz than LFR and it's god damn braindead maggots(some of them!).

[Deleted]

No, i'm using data in the form of blue posts.

use google, lazybones. I would but until you prove to me you can change your mind you aren't worth it.

I saw in a blue post that in the next expansion flying pigs will be a playable faction similar to the flying sheep in WC3.

Oh, want a source? Nah, use google, lazybones. 100% confirmed.

Step 1. Make up a ridiculous claim.
Step 2. Make up a source without giving that source up.
Step 3. When asked for source, tell others to find it themselves even though the source is supposed to be 3-4 years old and never existed.
Step 4. Pretend you are right until people can find your source that do not exist.
Step 5. Profit?

[l33t]

What's the difference if everyone is sitting in his house admiring his trophies?

So what? It could be done in a form of a Guild house, so you won't be there alone, but instead you'll see your fellow guildmates and feel like you have your own place in the world. I don't understant what you're trying to see standing near AH in the city.
- Epics? Nope, everybody have epics nowadays.
- Original names, like Leeeeegolaaaaas? Nope, it just bothers your mind how stupid some people are when you see some.
- Mounts? Nope, there are no original and rare mounts beyond loot card ones, and they are by default ugly and low-poly.
Only one thing you really could admire while standing in a crowd is original transmog, and it is too rare to find nowadays, you basically see armored bikinis on every player. So, please share, what exactly you're so eager to observe in a city?

At least, it would be another game of searching and adding trophys to players collection. More content is better than no content at all.

The problem with this is that the "bad casuals" would not be able to do it, it would just be something else for the "elitist". More dungeons, yes, extended time/difficulty, no as thats not for the "casual" audience!

Are you sure you don't confuse casuals with bads? Bads have all the time in the world, they just don't want to step up. Casuals have skill, they just have less time to play game; and, what is more important, they don't have a regular shedule for playing. The question was about content we give to casuals, not to bads. I really don't care about making content for bads, because I don't care about bads at all.

Casuals that have fun in actual playing the game, I mean, finding guilds and friends, participating in guild events and so on, would find some 5-man hard dungeons interesting and fun. You could say: why bother when you have CMGs? CMGs are nice, but they obviously lack rewards. You do them once, get your set and you have really no sence in coming back. Blizz could improve them by giving a decent raid-level gear; and, I personally would like the dungeon difficulty to upscale for players gear instead of downscaling player to dungeon's level, because it is dumb and inbalanced for half of specs. Its easy for devs this way, but I don't care about devs easy times at all.

[Deleted]

I saw in a blue post that in the next expansion flying pigs will be a playable faction similar to the flying sheep in WC3.

Oh, want a source? Nah, use google, lazybones. 100% confirmed.

That's about future events and not prior ones.

Therefore there can be no proof.

Go and look it up (I promise you will find it if you look) and then we can have a furher conversation.

Until then, goodbye.

[Morgaith]

Casual players should just stand around in town, ready to tell the Über Elite players how great and unique they are.

this but without the sarcasm.

[Deleted]

That's about future events and not prior ones.

Therefore there can be no proof.

Go and look it up (I promise you will find it if you look) and then we can have a furher conversation.

Until then, goodbye.

Sweet nectar of victory

So lets make a summary what you accomplish in this thread

1. Say that raids are getting more complex. Gets asked what fights have become more complex, cant answer that question, moves on from the topic.
2. Say that there was a post about it earlier. Source gets called out for being incorrect and biased with skewered results. Moves on from the topic.
3. Claims daily HC used to take hours to complete and a majority of the population could never do them. Claims he has a source. When asked for source, leaves the thread.

Good job! Another fun day talking with you.

[Drithien]

I'm one to admit that LFR isn't ideal. Infact, it's far from ideal. But in terms of a game based almost entirely around raiding, I don't see what other options they have now that an influx of people replacing people quitting has stopped. They got to keep all those casuals occupied somehow, and it seems to halfway-halfway work.

Ideally, they need a shit load of dungeons, and a further delayed LFR, or something. But that'd never happen.

And therein lies the problem in my opinion.

World of WarCraft was not advertised as a raiding-based game to most of its audience. Certainly gamers with previous experience from mmos realized that there would be some type of such activity, but they were, and are, just a small minority. The vast majority of players that flocked to the game came for its open world aspect; that promise of a vast world filled with mysteries and adventures; not the raiding.

And initially, they got what they came for; vanilla, with all its shortcomings, offered an immense amount of open world content, mostly concerning exploration and questing; while at the same time it provided some, but very limited compared to nowadays, hand-holding. The amount of content, the type of content, and the time spent figuring out how to approach it, led to the most positive period of the game, for casual players mostly as well.

And it was only when the developers tried to shoehorn everyone into raiding, collecting points, repeating dungeons, gathering gear, etc; that the game started to become boring, repetitive, feel like a chore, and the greatest "sin" of all: lack excitement. Why did they do that? Other than the fact that it is easier, cheaper and faster to develop instanced and repeated content than open world one, I don't know. But they did. And they dragged most of the casual players to that content through the lure of rewards.

The result is a game that is inherently boring, favours and even instills routines (in a supposedly grand adventure of all things), promotes individuality instead of cooperation and just plain feels like a tour, a very comfortable one, through a park, rather than an exciting journey through a mythical world.

At the same time you have Skyrim exceeding 10 million copies sold, in an age of rampant piracy nonetheless, by doing exactly what vanilla did: offer a vast, complex open world for players to adventure in. And then people wonder what went wrong?

[Deleted]

Sweet nectar of victory

So lets make a summary what you accomplish in this thread

1. Say that raids are getting more complex. Gets asked what fights have become more complex, cant answer that question, moves on from the topic.
2. Say that there was a post about it earlier. Source gets called out for being incorrect and biased with skewered results. Moves on from the topic.
3. Claims daily HC used to take hours to complete and a majority of the population could never do them. Claims he has a source. When asked for source, leaves the thread.

Good job! Another fun day talking with you.

Happy to respond, once you show you can use google.

[Ragedaug]

Why do so many ppl like to put casuals and lfr in the same basket. Sure in start lfr was made maybe for casuals, but it has ended up being the easy way for everyone to just abuse a raiding model to get somewhere in the game.

If someone has the time to do 4 wings of Soo and spend 2h+ in each wing (20-30min queue + 1h 30min clear), then he can use those 8 hours to do 2 x 4h raids. If you join a normal guild 2 x 4h raids you can clear normal pretty fast and yet you spend the same time in raids as you do when doing lfr. So think casual players can have endgame without lfr, its the bad and even worst then bad player that will not have end game if lfr is removed.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, I should be able to log on randomly throughout the week on a day when I have 4 hours in a row available, and just join a normal mode guild's raid? It's that easy? Just log on, find a guild that's about to start a normal mode run and ask for an invite?

That's very interesting and inspiring, I had no idea getting an invite from a normal mode raiding guild was that easy.