Why should raiding be exclusive?

[Synstir]

Its an MMO-game, do you think as many would play if you got handed everything instantly without effort?

Who is saying they want everything without effort?
players just want contebt to go through and progress their characters.

There is nothing wrong with content on different levels; the rewards are of different levels, so there should be no complains.
But this seems not to be enough and that is strange.

[Louis CK]

I don't think raiding should be exclusive. But I will say, raiding in TBC felt 100x more awe inspiring and badass than now because you knew you were part of a pretty small group of players rather than just another 1 in the millions that do it every day.

Calling Normal/HM raiding "exclusive" is like a 5'1 375lb man calling a 5k race "exclusive" because he doesn't wanna get off the couch.

Just because you aren't able/willing to do it, doesn't make it exclusive.

[ZehGeek]

That's still a difficulty level. And LFR wings taking hours to complete actually disagrees with you.

Guess you don't know what "difficulty level" means.

Yeeaa..that actualy feeds into the problem. LFR is easy..if you put forth effort. People don't put forth the effort in LFR most of the time, avoiding the really easy mechanics, which makes LFR take "hours" and "hours".

You honestly don't need to be tearing up the charts with 400k DPS, and avoid every single little fire to be "good". That doesn't mean you shouldn't put forth actual effort(Not using any of your abilities, just standing there in the fire/infront of the mob with a fire breath,alt-tabbing) to complete the boss.

Fun is one thing, now I'm in a guild where as long as you put forth effort, in whatever class, you can bring it. Don't snarl at people, and we're okay with switching out if people are okay with it. As my GL puts it "No stress, joke arounad and have fun with good people, kill some bosses, get some loot". How he runs the guild and his raids.
Of course there's minimums to have to join. Since you won't really kill a boss at all if everyone's level 90 but wearing level 60 gear or something because it's "fun".

The whole point being we actualy put effort into having fun but without raiding feeling like a job. We're not perfect, nor do we raid "15 hours a week", but the boss won't die if people are just shitting around doing barley any DPS while standing in the fire because "lullookbroIronfire," then it doesn't get fun because the boss doesn't die, etc etc.

Is it really hard to have some little social itneraction with people while hitting some buttons and avoiding fire on the ground though? You can joke around, and talk about other stuff while successfully killing the boss IMO.

Effort = reward in my opinion.
I do understand that casual guilds shouldnt scream at or kick players that arent up to snuff. If you have a casual mindset you should let everyone play as much as possible. We currently have LFR/FLEX/NORMAL/HEROIC so there is plenty of room for anyone who wants to play. But since you are playing with others, you can not make up your own rules and think its ok to ignore what the rest of the group is saying too you. If 20 other or so people are telling you that your dps is too low, in my opinion you should try to improve. Im not saying you have climb mountains or become a pro but you should atleast try to improve. Same goes for not understanding boss mechanics and so on. Atleast thats who i feel.

This is so true. Specialy about making up your own rules.

You don't instantly take on the last boss in a game when you just started and expect to beat it. On the same coin, unless you're a min maxer, if you play the game naturaly to progress, and get to the end. you'll ususaly have the tools to defeat said boss.

[tangers58]

You do not need to put in 15 hours a week to raid -_-

Why should everyone else have to play dumbed down content because you were too busy crying instead of getting better?

[nekobaka]

You dont have to bust out 15 hours a week just to step food into raids. Even in BC the progression guild I raided with did no more than 12 with a more typical 9 hours. Then later it all dropped down to 2-3 hours in WotLK. In Cata I spent about 1-2 hours doing PuG raiding on my own schedule and not raiding ever week. As of right now raiding is the only form of gameplay outside of PVP that requires such a level of group based teamwork and there are players who want engaging holy-trinity team based content. Raiding was designed for those players who are interested in overcoming challenges together as a team and a large one at that. For those who are not interested in team work oriented holy-trinity content then raiding is just not for them just as dailies are not for players who like group based content. Different strokes for different folks. Raiding is "exclusives" largely due to it being something that not everyone wants to do which makes it not really exclusive when anyone can at the required level can enter a raid instance. Raiding is not "exclusive" by way of only for players being handed the golden ticket.

[Redpanda]

most raiding guilds do 7-11 3 days away 12 hours a week pretty small time investment

[MoanaLisa]

It shouldn't be. When Blizzard realized that players had more or less made it that way they responded by insuring that for the actual content, it's not. I don't see that changing at any point no matter how many people engage in juvenile rants about how the game is 'work' and that people need to 'earn' things.

It's a game, not a full- or part-time job.

[Dreknar20]

While you can nerf the gear into the ground you are punishing the majority of the contents audience to deter the minority.
.

why would it be punishing?
You just change the item lvls so that LFR of a tier would be lower or equal to the the normal of last tier
A legit raider should not have any upgrades whatsoever in dumb dumb mode

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Just because you aren't able/willing to do it, doesn't make it exclusive.

people really mis-use the word exclusive
If raiding was actually exclusive then it means only certain players are able to zone in at all

[Dasani]

Most of this "why LFR sucks" discussion has been said a thousand times before by a thousand other people, I don't think theres a single argument for or against LFR that people here haven't heard before in some form or another.

I did want to address one thing though that I seem to be seeing a lot more of lately, and that is the idea that LFR's killed 5-man dungeons. I don't have a whole lot to say on the subject one way or another, but I would like to point out in a 5-man dungeon you need 1 in 5 people queueing to be a tank and 1 in 5 people queueing to be a healer. And while you need a little more healers in the ratio for LFR than 5mans, you only need 8% of the total people queueing to be tanks. Tanks are already the bottleneck that holds up LFRs from going anywhere, and they are the role you need the least of by far, yet they are so rare it still takes forever to find 2. From a design standpoint, it makes sense that to keep the idea of group based content only needing 8% tanks as opposed to 20% tanks (in 5mans). There aren't enough tanks, and their numbles keep dwindling because frankly tanking isn't quite as fun anymore since they nerfed veng. You can piss and moan and cry about vengeance being OP till the cows come home, but ultimately DPS are the ones who pay the price for tanks losing the fun version of vengeance because the tank population dried up after it got nerfed. You can't nerf fun, it never ends well.

Anyway, honestly i'd rather LFR was designed so you only needed 1 tank and remove tank swap mechanics. That would make queues faster, as well as making it more fun to tank IMO because being the only tank would make you feel kind of superstar-ish. But personally, i'd be happier if LFR didn't exist at all.

[Sansnom]

If you are working, and one of the workers hardly shows up, and when he does he never does any work. How long do you think it will take before he is fired? And before you start arguing that "this is not work" its not about that. Its a social-structure and behaviorism. If you are playing with people you hardly know, until you do know them you wont accept them not doing their part for your mutual success.

True, except this does not really apply. What we have is 4 different level difficulty of the game. The most skilled plays in the top league, the least skilled play in the lowest league.

Unfortunately, what we have is some top league players playing in the lowest league and complain that these lesser skilled players are not upto their standards and therefore their league should be removed because they do not have the ability to play properly.

[Qanlayeni]

LFR has been a joke from the start. I just wish they would hurry up and remove all the boss abilitys already, 95% of the player base here ignores them anyway so what's the point in having them? They should also make so if you don't kill the boss first try, he just does and gives you loot anyway, as taking more than one attempt takes up too much of these 'casuals time' which they hold on too dearly.

Also make so that anyone who has got bronze or higher in the proving grounds not able too enter, that way you will only have the brain dead mong that LFR is aimed at in the first place, then they will be around all players at the same 'skill'.

Hell the other day I went to the film and saw a film. Because I brought a ticket, under your logic of paying for the service, that means I should be able to go behind the scenes and meet all the actors and watch it being filmed because I am a paying customer yeah? it's my right!


Casuals you are just lucky that blizzard sold their soul to the devil and became a money hungry business and with that ruining the MMORPG genre with it.

[melodramocracy]

Just because you aren't able/willing to do it, doesn't make it exclusive.

I'd argue that the majority of folks that don't do it are actually able, and simply unwilling.

[Iyarashii]

There's a reason why ICC was so popular and why WotLK had the most subs at the time. That's because ICC was able to let ok-geared people in and clear a couple boss in order to get loot and had a increasing boss difficulty as you went through the raid. Then you had 25m which was harder but gave out better loot, giving an incentive to people to keep raiding and keep getting better. Now it's so much hand holding, flex is ok because it allows players to get a feel for mechanics and help those get used to raiding, but LFR is just face roll toxicity that should be changed. If you wanna see end game content get good at the game and que up for a last wing flex.

[melodramocracy]

It's a game, not a full- or part-time job.

But it is time consuming, and always will be. That's how the biz works. The day Blizzard adapts a different mindset is the day they lose subs in record fashion. And if a player considers the content a job, or some tedious duty that they dislike, then they're spending their entertainment time quite poorly.

[Giscoicus]

I'd argue that the majority of folks that don't do it are actually able, and simply unwilling.

Agreed.

If you can pencil in 2 hours a week to watch. Some TV you can do the same for raiding. yes, stuff comes up but guilds are in many cases more than willing to understand, unless it becomes a habit.

Like one time I was really really hung over. I told them they said it's okay, be better next week. Now if every other week I came in an said "lol I was drinking lol" then yea, kicked.

I'm not ready to believe that everybody who doesn't raid normal+ has a job that has changing hour or they are on call. Children is something many players deal with, and often will raid after they are asleep.

[Louis CK]

I'd argue that the majority of folks that don't do it are actually able, and simply unwilling.

Still doesn't exclude them. They exclude themselves by their choice or "unwillingness" as you put it.

[melodramocracy]

Still doesn't exclude them. They exclude themselves by their choice or "unwillingness" as you put it.

I agree. It's interesting to look at these forums as a microcosm of society, most people set exclusionary hurdles for themselves by simply saying "I can't". Often without even giving an honest try at said goal.

[Grogo]

The current raiding model has a welfare component, some people would rather be on welfare than work. Once it gets in your blood it is hard to get that woodtick off. It then attracts another woodtick and so on and so on.

It is best for any community to get people off welfare.

[killidan]

Raiding is open to everyone.

Go and do it instead of bitching about its difficulty.

If you dont have time to play the game, its your own problem. It has nothing to do with raiding.

[Raelbo]

I understand what your saying, but do you really think that LFR provides a real "raid" experience? I would seriously disagree. LFR is nothing what so ever like a real "raid".

Of course it doesn't provide a "real" raid experience in the sense that you mean. But it does provide elements of "real" raiding. It's a watered down version of raiding intended for people who either can't do "real" raiding, or who *gasp, shock and horror* don't enjoy "real" raiding.

It's less difficult than a 5 man heroic, you can literally just afk the entire thing and collect purples, and I'm not just trying to be a dick, people do it all the time and you and I know it.

This issue needs to be put into perspective: Yes there are douches who actively abuse LFR. But in my experience, for every AFKer being carried in LFR there are 10 people genuinely putting in an effort and doing their best -or at least good enough (if someone in hc SoO gear wants to perform at 50% in LFR that is still better than most)

When you can walk into a dungeon, afk for an hour and collect a bunch of loot, I would implore you to explain to me how that's any different than receiving epics in the mail.

The day that 25 people in 1 LFR raid all get loot for being afk come back and talk to me. The reality is that although some might be able to get away with this, most won't even try. And those are the people that matter. Even if only 10 people are participating properly (and normally if an LFR is actually downing bosses that number is at least 20) then LFR has done its job. The 1 or 2 or 5 people who are afk are irrelevant. The value of LFR should be measured according to how many people are getting value out of the experience, not according to how many aren't. If you were to use that criterion, I guarantee that LFR would come out on top of Heroic raiding, because at least 95% of WoW players never touch heroics, and therefore get zero benefit from it.

Shit I bet they could keep the same crowd happy if they just send you 3 random epics in the mail each week, sometimes you get a tier peice for another class, sometimes you get a tier piece for your class etc.

Would it keep you happy? I know it won't do anything for me. Do you think normal or heroic raiders would want their loot just mailed to them? Why do you assume that most people in LFR just want loot mailed to them?

Yes, maybe there are some people there who just want free loots. I am pretty certain most of the afk crowd fit this category. But honestly, they are a very small minority of the people doing LFR.

Do all the people that suffer through LFR really enjoy LFR?

You're asking the wrong question. All that matters is "Do some of the people doing LFR really enjoy LFR?".

Quite frankly, if someone participating in it doesn't enjoy it, they shouldn't be there, and there is absolutely no compelling reason why anyone needs to run LFR ever. As I said above, the value of LFR lies in the people enjoying it, not the people who don't enjoy it.

and yet I'm forced to do LFR.

Oh please! That is RIDICULOUS. No one is forced to do LFR. Ever. Period.

I accept that a world first guild needs to get every advantage they can. But since LFR gear is such a low ilevel, it's highly unlikely that anyone decked out in Heroic Stormforged and VP upgraded gear + a few weeks of Normal, heroic and Flex boss kills, would gain any benefit at all from doing LFR. Not enough to justify spending an hour in LFR instead of progressing on a heroic boss.

And if you are not in such a guild, then what the hell do you "need" LFR gear for? Basically put, the further from the leading progression pack you are, the less likely it is that the time, effort and frustration of "suffering" through LFR for a potential upgrade can be deemed justifiable.

As a raidleader in very casual guild currently still clearing Flex, and with guildies sitting at ilevels below 515, I could suggest to my guildies that they do some LFR to get some gear because it would really help us out in our progression. But if I demanded it, I would fully expect them to tell me to fuck off. Our guild is not serious enough about progress to justify forcing people to do LFR, and logically, if we were that serious, our progress in previous tiers would have ensured that we have been well enough geared to not need to LFR...

Besides which, Timeless Isle offers gear that is more than good enough to get you right into flex and even normal modes, completely negating any "need" to do LFR. LFR may be a nice option for gearing, but it is very, very far from mandatory. It's also ironic how the same people who claim that they "need" to do LFR because it's the easiest option are also the most vocal about how lazy the average LFR raider is...

Besides all that, you know what? I don't really care if you like LFR, if you do, great I hope you do enjoy it.

That's exactly the point mate....Believe it or not there are people who do enjoy it. This may seem incomprehensible to someone who cannot stand LFR, but please just accept the fact that not everyone is the same and we are all entitled to our likes and dislikes.

But don't force me to do it. Don't make it part of the progression chain to getting into normal modes and beyond.

It isn't. It's that simple. It's simply a nice to have option in a scenario where other viable options do exist (Timeless Isle says hello).

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Sadly Thok trinkets are forcing me into this situation

Thok became available on Oct 8 in LFR. By that time you have had 4 (maybe even 5 depending on when your raid was) shots at normal/heroic + 2 attempts on flex. Also you could have coined a few of those attempts if the trinket was the bad luck drop for you, meaning maybe 10 or so rolls at the thing.

Yet you complain bitterly when you are given a chance to make up for some of your bad luck through LFR?!? And to be fair, how much of a difference will it really make? 5% to your personal dps seems optimistic to me (more like 1-2% probably), which is what, like 0.1-0.3% more raid dps?

FYI, the world first race for Garrosh was over a full week before you even a chance to kill Thok in LFR. How much do you really "need" this trinket? Or is it simply a case of "want"?

Sorry I am just having a tough time accepting this "forced into LFR" crap...