Why should raiding be exclusive?

[Spotnick]

They are the only difficulties left. LFR is a mindless, dumbed down, RNG based lootfest.

Pretty sure I spent more time on some LFR bosses than heroic SoO bosses.

[smartazjb0y]

Blizzard added more difficulty-levels to raiding now. You donlt have to be in a guild.... just queue up for lfr and flex is available now, you can pug it easily if you have enough players on your server. On mine, i hardly see a flex being formed.

But raiding is open now for everybody at different difficulties.

Which is a good thing. But, lots of people want to see LFR and flex removed, and I want to see why.

[cFortyfive]

you don't have much time to spend playing

I will never really get that argument.

I want to see why so many people seem to think "if you can't put in the time to raid Normals/Heroics, you shouldn't be able to see the raid content." They apparently want raids to be exclusive to those who can commit X number of hours to the game a week and pull X amount of DPS, and if you don't meet that requirement, you shouldn't be able to see the raid.

How unreasonable - actually playing a bit to see content.

[Falu]

Funny, because I'm actually a 25man normal mode raid leader who doesn't run LFR at all.

Nice try though

That is irrelevant tbh, my point is mainly that nobody cares... barely anyone thinks that raiding should be exclusive.
My point was, if you striclty run LFR to "experience content", fine, but don't expect people to start regarding that gauntlent of boredom seriously.

[Imnick]

Maybe that sounded a bit rude. From what i know Raiding is an endgame content. In my head this sounds like litteraly that only the best will have the chance to do it properly. Lets take your analogy with football - raiding normal and even heroic should be equivalent to ... lets say Premier league, Bundesliga, Itallian Seria A... do you see where im heading with this?

Well there are lower leagues than the ones you mentioned there so... if that was an argument for removing LFR it was a very bad analogy.
Yes it is very much like football, in that people at all levels of skill can play it and should be catered for.

[Slant]

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive.

It's not. Of course, if you're talking about dicking around in a raid, while they drag your lazy ass through a dungeon with you being afk or suffering from a permanent form of brain lag, I'm not so sure if you are raiding. It's really just a personal choice of each player. Given any difficulty that you're able to make up, you will not be a heroic raider if you don't have the mindset for it. Just being able to enter an instance doesn't mean you're actually doing it.

[smartazjb0y]

Why it sholdn't be? Because "you" want to try it maybe? Then are "you" up to it? Do "you" have idea whats going on in raid envoirment? When "you" ask yourself these questions and answer them positively then you start being a part of that "Exclusiveness"

Maybe that sounded a bit rude. From what i know Raiding is an endgame content. In my head this sounds like litteraly that only the best will have the chance to do it properly. Lets take your analogy with football - raiding normal and even heroic should be equivalent to ... lets say Premier league, Bundesliga, Itallian Seria A... do you see where im heading with this?
AS far as i know rading was excluseve in Vanila and TBC. It started getting more acceceble in Wotlk with Naxx and 10mans, just to get to the LFR in Cata. But still Normals and heroics are far more difficult than the previous expansion due added mechanics and boss phases witch requer even more coordination betwen the people.. Hell before was just 2-3, in the worst case 5 mechanics total per boss fight to witch u could assing 2-3,5 peole to handle them. Nowdays EVERYBODY have a job to do - the tanks, the healers, the dps. MoP raids doesn't allow noone to slak or tunnelvision the fight if u want to down a boss. Thats why only like ,let say roughly, 1 mln of the 7mln player base raid normal+. From my PoV this is one of the reason some of the people stoped playing the game - now they have to watch to handle given mechanic properly instead of tunneling the boss.
However these people really put effort in this so i really don't see any real reason why raiding normal+ shouldn't be in some way exclusive. The only reason to let more people try it is purely named "His majesty - the Dollar!", so Blizzard can squeeze somemore cash out of us :P
Just my 2 cents :}

Sure, it's endgame, but we can have varying difficulties of endgame. Normal and Heroic are the professional leagues, so LFR and Flex are the amateur leagues, or just playing for fun with friends. No one says "oh if you want to play football you HAVE to be really good," so I don't see why we should say that with raiding.

If we let people who aren't really good at football play football, we should let people who aren't really good at raiding to see the raid content, even if it's an easier mode.

- - - Updated - - -

How unreasonable - actually playing a bit to see content.

You do play: it takes time to get to level 90 and get the gear to enter LFR.

What, do you require your friends to practice 3 times a week when you want to just randomly play soccer with them?

[ZeroWashu]

They are the only difficulties left. LFR is a mindless, dumbed down, RNG based lootfest.

Mindless, as if playing a scripted encounter isn't. Look ma, we successfully memorized ten minutes of scripted events. WOW, I have seen marching bands do more.

I have found that most of the people bemoaning the lack of difficulty, are merely water cooler hard cores. I never seem to see their names among those guilds bringing down the bosses in rapid order. Look, its a game. Your not going to get a medal for it. Games are supposed to be fun. If you need the encounters to be difficult to have fun then by all means, find means to make them more difficult for yourself, but I suspect you wouldn't. Beating a mob is nothing to crow about, they are scripted with known responses and abilities.

[cFortyfive]

You do play: it takes time to get to level 90 and get the gear to enter LFR.

Getting to level 90 is already experiencing content. It's just not raid content. At least as far as I am aware you aren't just hitting a dummy waiting to ding 90.

[smartazjb0y]

That is irrelevant tbh, my point is mainly that nobody cares... barely anyone thinks that raiding should be exclusive.
My point was, if you striclty run LFR to "experience content", fine, but don't expect people to start regarding that gauntlent of boredom seriously.

Except it seems like in every topic there are people who want to remove LFR.

And apparently it is relevant, since you thought I made this topic to brag about me being an LFR raider. If it was irrelevant, you probably shouldn't have brought any of that up.

- - - Updated - - -

Getting to level 90 is already experiencing content. It's just not raid content. At least as far as I am aware you aren't just hitting a dummy waiting to ding 90.

Exactly. People aren't asking to see raid content once they make a new character. They want to be able to run raid content when they get to max level and gear up some. That constitutes playing the game.

[Deleted]

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

Isn't this exactly the reason Blizzard said LFR was implemented?

[cFortyfive]

Exactly. People aren't asking to see raid content once they make a new character. They want to be able to run raid content when they get to max level and gear up some. That constitutes playing the game.

And everyone can see raidcontent as long as he is willing to press buttons. Even normal content before lfr. Yeah well I guess it requires a wow subscription.

[Deleted]

Well there are lower leagues than the ones you mentioned there so... if that was an argument for removing LFR it was a very bad analogy.
Yes it is very much like football, in that people at all levels of skill can play it and should be catered for.

I didn't said that LFR have to be removed (if u see my chars in the signature you might notice that i run a lot of LFR myself too). From what i read, or more like, from what i understood from reading post #1 it sounded to me more like "Why should normal raiding be exclusive?" :}

[smartazjb0y]

Isn't this exactly the reason Blizzard said LFR was implemented?

Yes. I'm wondering why anti-LFR people think that boss models, mechanics, and art should be exclusive to "good" players only

[Synstir]

Which is a good thing. But, lots of people want to see LFR and flex removed, and I want to see why.

Oh sure you do... just think of it this way:
Roll Royce makes very expensive cars. They aren't buyable for the masses. So when a person buys and drives a Rolls Royce and he says: I am driving a Rolls Royce, it means something; it is status.

If Rolls Royce decided to make a car for the lower segment of the market, low price and stuff, lots of more people would drive a Rolls Royce and they all could say: I am driving a Rolls Royce. Same sentence... :-)

Now when the first one say: I am driving a Rolls Royce... well the status is gone! There are cheaper forms of a Rolls Royce.

The same goes for raiding and the purple gear obtained from it.
They are different in ilvls between hc and lfr... but they are both purple and they drop from the same boss... both are Rolls Royces just different prices.

That is why people want LFR removed or they that name of the gear written in a different color or the want lfr to be without drops.
There you find the problem..... there is nothing more to it than this.

if "they" themselves don;t have a purple item is some slot, "they" too will run lfr to get that piece while they are against it.
Imagine players coming into lfr and then yelling: lfr= looking for retards or lfr = for baddies and stuff, WHILE they are running it themselves. :-)

This is how stupid people can be in there greed for items and need to be better than others.

[smartazjb0y]

I didn't said that LFR have to be removed (if u see my chars in the signature you might notice that i run a lot of LFR myself too). From what i read, or more like, from what i understood from reading post #1 it sounded to me more like "Why should normal raiding be exclusive?" :}

I'm questioning anti-LFR people who think raiding should only be exclusive to "good" players. A lot of them think that if you can't do Normal or Heroic raiding, you just shouldn't raid, and that Blizzard shouldn't have added LFR.

[cFortyfive]

Oh sure you do... just think of it this way:

The comparison is even more hilarious than insisting that normal raids are "exclusive" content.

[Deleted]

People that dont like LFR and says it is trash. Why do you join in on it? Why do you bother joining a LFR queue if you dont like it? Leave it alone and let me as a casual player enjoy the storyline and still feel like I've accomplished something.

[Pyromanyac]

The only people I've seen asking for exclusivity also use words like "scrubs", "lesser creatures", "n00bs/nabs/retards/tards/idiots/etc.", so yeah no point in actually speaking of them. Other people that actually raid normal and heroic don't really concern themselves with the lower difficulties as they don't impact them in any way.

P.S. having to run LFR for a specific gimmick item or a quest of some sort is a byproduct of RNG, not a twisted way for Blizz to make fun of us.

[smartazjb0y]

Oh sure you do... just think of it this way:
Roll Royce makes very expensive cars. They aren't buyable for the masses. So when a person buys and drives a Rolls Royce and he says: I am driving a Rolls Royce, it means something; it is status.

If Rolls Royce decided to make a car for the lower segment of the market, low price and stuff, lots of more people would drive a Rolls Royce and they all could say: I am driving a Rolls Royce. Same sentence... :-)

Now when the first one say: I am driving a Rolls Royce... well the status is gone! There are cheaper forms of a Rolls Royce.

The same goes for raiding and the purple gear obtained from it.
They are different in ilvls between hc and lfr... but they are both purple and they drop from the same boss... both are Rolls Royces just different prices.

That is why people want LFR removed or they that name of the gear written in a different color or the want lfr to be without drops.
There you find the problem..... there is nothing more to it than this.

if "they" themselves don;t have a purple item is some slot, "they" too will run lfr to get that piece while they are against it.
Imagine players coming into lfr and then yelling: lfr= looking for retards or lfr = for baddies and stuff, WHILE they are running it themselves. :-)

This is how stupid people can be in there greed for items and need to be better than others.

Lots of car manufacturers do that. It's not like all Rolls-Royces are the same price. Then, the status becomes "I have the expensive Rolls-Royce model, I have more money than you." You can still have that "elite" status, it's just expressed by something different.