Why should raiding be exclusive?

[Falu]

The only people I've seen asking for exclusivity also use words like "scrubs", "lesser creatures", "n00bs/nabs/retards/tards/idiots/etc.", so yeah no point in actually speaking of them. Other people that actually raid normal and heroic don't really concern themselves with the lower difficulties as they don't impact them in any way.

P.S. having to run LFR for a specific gimmick item or a quest of some sort is a byproduct of RNG, not a twisted way for Blizz to make fun of us.

One could claim that RNG is a twisted way of making fun by Blizzard

Not that I'm claiming this...

[Deleted]

LFR should be removed because nowadays nobody even does it anymore.

With the introduction of Flex (which is pretty damn easy, as long as someone relatively experienced leads it and brings his buddies) you can experience real raiding when you please.

The only issue would be low pop realms, but then blizz needs to hurry up with the server merges to get that sorted.

LFR really is just an afk and hope you get loot cess pit and it should die. Any gear you need for Flex can be obtained from the Timeless Isle and from t15 valor vendors if necessary. Some people just feel forced to do it because it drops trinkets/tier.

[cFortyfive]

People that dont like LFR and says it is trash. Why do you join in on it? Why do you bother joining a LFR queue if you dont like it?

Frankly while I don't really care about the existence of it anymore it is a really convenient way to afk the legendary quest on alts you eventually will play a bit.

[Gilian]

Yes. I'm wondering why anti-LFR people think that boss models, mechanics, and art should be exclusive to "good" players only

Most players don't ask for LFR to be removed to have exclusive content but for other reasons.

Not sure why this has to be done over and over again almost every day... Read some other threads if you genuinely want to understand...

[vep]

Why? Because that's how life works.
You don't get to finish high school and get a 10 million dollar salary job straight away.

[smartazjb0y]

LFR should be removed because nowadays nobody even does it anymore.

With the introduction of Flex (which is pretty damn easy, as long as someone relatively experienced leads it and brings his buddies) you can experience real raiding when you please.

The only issue would be low pop realms, but then blizz needs to hurry up with the server merges to get that sorted.

LFR really is just an afk and hope you get loot cess pit and it should die. Any gear you need for Flex can be obtained from the Timeless Isle and from t15 valor vendors if necessary.

Eh, lots of people still do it. That's a big assumption, to think that no one does LFR. Sure, less people do LFR since they do Flex, but there's still people that do LFR

[Yuna]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

I do not feel that way and the content is not exclusive at all if you have basic knowledge of what you are doing.

Don´t have much time? - LFR
Gear alts? - Flex
Clear dat shit in a couple hours? Gear your better alts? - Normal
Sit down and learn, bring some time and tea - Heroic

[smartazjb0y]

Why? Because that's how life works.
You don't get to finish high school and get a 10 million dollar salary job straight away.

iLvl 528 gear, no titles, no mounts, and no achievements isn't a $10,000,000 salary. It's like minimum wage. Heroic gear, titles, mounts, and achievements are the $10,000,000 salary

[Imnick]

I do not feel that way and the content is not exclusive at all if you have basic knowledge of what you are doing.

This topic is addressed to people who want flex and lfr taken out of the game, not a comment on how it works currently

[Synstir]

Lots of car manufacturers do that. It's not like all Rolls-Royces are the same price. Then, the status becomes "I have the expensive Rolls-Royce model, I have more money than you." You can still have that "elite" status, it's just expressed by something different.

Well the items have the label: raid Finder or Heroic... but it doesn't seem to be enough.
People like to be exclusive.... that is how our ego works.

But in order to do that one has to be extraordinary oneself and not stop others from proceeding/progressing.
With lfr we see that players want it to be removed or that the items has to be removed or whatever.

casuals shouldn't have purples.... that is what they are saying and to be honest, i think it is bs!

[Yuna]

iLvl 528 gear, no titles, no mounts, and no achievements isn't a $10,000,000 salary. It's like minimum wage. Heroic gear, titles, mounts, and achievements are the $10,000,000 salary

Yeah and with that 528ish gear you can easily do flex and step up to normal with 535ish gear and after that just go into heroics with 550ish gear and so on, I do not get your problem... LFR really is a good kickstarter if you want to try something serious and do not have friends that can quickly carry you through some raids to gear your chars etc.

[Uoyredrum]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

Think of it this way. LFR is designed for bad casual players (not saying all casuals are bad, I'm saying bad casuals) who don't understand the game or want to put forth any effort to become better at it. You don't have to look for groups, be social and make connections, join a guild, enchant or gem your gear, or even gear correctly in general. You really don't have to play much either, people get by half afk just spamming one button and standing in fire and dying constantly. Why? That's how it's designed because casual players whined about not being able to see content that they didn't put forth any effort to see.

With a difficulty like this, there's no sense of accomplishment. Beating something truly difficult, whether in wow or not, gives a great sense of accomplishment. Now take that truly difficult thing and divide it into 4 different difficulties. Very Easy, Easy, Medium and Hard. Now everyone can see the encounter, but it's watered down because they had to spend time making the same fight 4 times, balancing all 4 versions of this encounter and then doing the same for all of the other encounters in the raid. This isn't even including 10 man.

Saying "I shouldn't have to put forth effort" only cements my opinion that there should be 1 difficulty, and it should be difficult. If you can't hack that difficulty then tough, you don't get to see the content. I say this former hardcore and as a current casual. I'd rather see meaningful content that is rewarding to those who put forth the effort to see and complete it.

[Deleted]

Easy answer, it shouldn't be and isn't exclusive!

LFR for solo players
Flex for friends and those who have a medium skill level or for alts and basically just having a good time with friends
Normal, for organised people that are able to show up on time and know tactics and willing to wipe and learn strategies
Heroic for highly organised groups and players that want to min/max or get to the endgame

You just have to decide which group your are in and which you want to be in.

[Niku]

You're saying you want to enter real raiding without having to put in the effort required? Are you shitting me? It's a fundamental in this world that if you want to rise to the top or become good at anything you have to put in the equivalent effort. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Belisaurio]

Funny, because I'm actually a 25man normal mode raid leader who doesn't run LFR at all.

Nice try though

Doesn't matter, what you raid. He don't lie, LFR it's that. Just change their first part to : LFR raiders* and you understand all the post (or just do some LFR rushes to know better).

[Snorkles]

Because there really is no real incentive for being a good player outside of good peformance, which at this point with this playerbase feels like welfare to carry less then good players through dungeons which are already nerfed heavily over the course of time. Challenge wise, Heroic Dungeons were once what Heroic Raids are today.

Heroic Dungeons have never been what Heroic raids are today.

Because if a MMO is subscription based then it would be in creators best interest to put in as much hours into the game as humanly possible.

It's the exact opposite, whether we log on 10 hours a week or 1 hour doesn't matter to the creators as long as we keep paying our subs. In fact the less hours we play a week the better - 15 weeks of 1 hour is worth more than 1 week of 15 hours, after all. Valor/Rep/Daily caps were exactly for this reason, they artificially extended content to keep people subbed for more than a month.

Because it then forces those sub-par people to improve which would benefit everyone who parties with them outside of that new instance architecture.

This has proven to be untrue. People don't rise to a challenge, if they did they would already have done so. People simply did not raid, got bored then quit.

They arent. We have flex, LFR, Youtube videos as a source of experience as well. The issues is when we have low peformance amateurs getting near same attention and rewards as those who put it to a much higher level. It's less of a issue where 100% physically fit to play any sort of football dont get to experience football but less then 10% physically fit to play any sort of football get near same reward as those who would be an equivalent of those 100% physically fit to play any sort of football.

TL: DR
It feels like you're being cheated out when you are exceptional above the crowd but only get a recolored armor that still blends in the crowd of brown-ness.

We're not professional athletes, we're paying customers wanting to enjoy a game. We should receive just as much 'attention' as anyone else does in the game and our rewards should be inline with the effort we put in. It gets thrown around a lot but it is true, my sub is worth just as much as your sub.

[SSJrapter]

Let me introduce you to my "vision" of wow. It involves removing LFR (but not flex) and heres why.

LFR takes time, flex takes time, normals (and heroics) take time. This game is a time sink. But not everyone has 20+ hours a week to spend on raiding, let alone 20 hours a week on any hobby given people have work and other hobbies. This is a fact.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that nobdy plays alts in raiding. Everyone has a mian and everyone only raid on their main.

Lets also keep the current model in place, where gear is very important and can usually overcompensate for poor skill. So much so that gear that drops from an easier difficulty is still a big enough upgrade that it is worthwhile for the chance at that upgrade. Now lets also assume that on top of the one thing you enjoy (raiding) you also have to do stuff outside of raiding to make your raiding gear better (valor for upgrades). So now instead of doing Normal/heroic just once a week, averaging 6-16 hours of your free time (lets just take 6 because that's what my guild does, and were almost 9/14) and realize that i could be getting upgrades from flex and LFR. So the average LFR would take me 45 min per one for queuing because i am a DPS. That's already 3 hours. Even assuming a 1-shot kill on everything that's another 3 hours. So now i have effectively doubled my playtime in just raiding (all i do). Now that alone isn't why i want LFR to suffer.

I want LFR to suffer becuase people used to want to see end game content and made an effort to raid. Ever since wrath our guild has barley been holding it together. We used to raid 16 horus a week, now we raid 6. We did firefighter back then and we almost always mention it every other week. But what happend? LFR. It allowed us to lose a HUGE pool of raiders becuase "there is no point to raiding when i can see the content on LFR." But these raiders don't HAVE to scale up, but i HAVE to scale down. I have to learn to deal with immature players who literally shouldn't be in a raiding environment. I see people in better gear doing half of what would be expected of a normal player. I hate doing LFR, i really do. And to remain optimal for my guild i (used to) have to run it on a weekly basis. If anything to catch up on the legendary quest when i switched mains for a bit. But they don't even have to try at all to get on my level to see the content.

But what gets me the MOST mad.....is we barely touched heroic ToT, we got 1 boss down and we had maybe 2 thunderforged pieces per person...and what does LFR SoO drop? Gear that is BETTER than what we had. We worked our asses off in ToT in comparison and we get told 6 months later "tough luck, deal with it, its the way the game is now" and now LFR heroes 5 weeks in SoO were out gearing us, utter bullshit.

So yea, i want LFR to burn a painful death. and Flex is MUCH better (mechanics need to be followed and is easier only due to gear) and i wish it would kill off LFR. It wont but i can dream....

[Synstir]

Why? Because that's how life works.
You don't get to finish high school and get a 10 million dollar salary job straight away.

I got it!
Not 10.000.000 but what it stands for.
Right out of school and the jackpot for a fob/position.

So it can happen if opportunity is there.
LFR is opportunity for a lot of players to progress after hitting 90.

What do you suggest for end-game content for people who:
1. don't like raiding
2. don't have scheduled time to be online
3. can't commit to a guild
4. play too less to get to a skill level which is needed to be succesfull in normal or hc

I don't assume you just want them to quit playing/paying after they hit 90 and wait for the next xpac?

[m777]

because if everyone can have everything there no point in getting anything what the point of trying hard "? where the challange and fun ? why not just watch the raid for free on youtube its the same this game is ruined and keep losing subs because blizzard listen to people like u and dont understand casuals are unreliable and this the real reason blizzard lost 5k subs wow is not dying its already Dead died somewhere in wotlk its complete different game then the world of warcraft now we had in vanilla TBC and the start of wotlk

something people don't understand about MMos if u dont have long term goal something you cant obtain something that u really need to work hard to get to then the game lose all its flavour this is what keep you going when u level up and what keep you going when u farm and when u try get some big achievement now that u can get and see everything there no point after doing LFR i don't feel like doing the actual raid because i have seen everything and i got replica of the items from there so who care ?

[cFortyfive]

Think of it this way. LFR is designed for bad casual players (not saying all casuals are bad, I'm saying bad casuals) who don't understand the game or want to put forth any effort to become better at it. You don't have to look for groups, be social and make connections, join a guild, enchant or gem your gear, or even gear correctly in general. You really don't have to play much either, people get by half afk just spamming one button and standing in fire and dying constantly. Why? That's how it's designed because casual players whined about not being able to see content that they didn't put forth any effort to see.

I am kinda interested how this would translate to single player games but I suppose this is what let's plays, streams and cheats are for.