November 4 - Even More LFR Nerfs

[Ronduwil]

The last time I called out my ot for doing that I got kicked. Its really hard to get anyone kicked in lfr who is afk unless they do something that causes a wipe. IE pulls trash with the boss or the boss to early (a dps). Usually sitting there afk won't get you even noticed enough to be kicked.

That's because I find it hard to believe that you could clear a boss with your OT AFK. Maybe in DS, but there aren't many (any?) one-tank fights in MoP LFR. I guarantee that if your OT were AFK on most fights it would be a wipe and they would be promptly kicked.

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It really isn't, they have the exact same problem:

Guaranteed chance of finding a group no matter how badly you perform + complete anonymity = the content has to be so ridiculously easy that there is next to no chance at failing.

The difference is that with 10% of the population trolling chances are you'll only get a troll in your five man on half your runs. By contrast, chances are that you'll get 2-3 trolls in every LFR run. That's what sucks about 25 man. Add in the fact that you have to get 20% consensus to even initiate a VTK and now you not only have 2-3 VTKs to initiate every run, but you have to get 4 others on board with you to even initiate it. That's why LFR is so much harder to control than 5-mans and why content has to be so ridiculously easy on it.

[Frozenbeef]

I don't do lfr anymore because it's really not worth the amount of deaths you have for little to no reward...4 hours for one wing and winning nothing and if you do win something the ilevel is lower than you can get outside raids :S

I prefer 10minutes to kill ordos/ celestials per week for 553+ vs 12hours in siege of org per week for 528 >.<

Also you can get 543 outside raids with burdens if you are really calling 528 items free epic you are just complaining about lfr for the sake of it.

OP- The more i read of your posts in this thread the more i realize you are just trying to take stabs at lfr players. Just stop it for heavens sakes. You, normal raiders, heroic raiders are not special hardcore super skilled players. You are normal people that can happen to devote time consistently to the game. I'm getting sick of people trying to segregate the wow community just because they feel the need to be seen as superior -.-

[Ronduwil]

THEN WHY DO THEY DESERVE LOOT!? $15 a month entitles you to access to the game, that's it. Furthermore, how is that "casual content for all" method working out for them? Unless they straighten their crap up, WoW will be down to 4-5 million people by halfway through the next expansion in my opinion.

Think, McFly! Think! Who is going to continue to pay $15 for access to a game in which their character will no longer advance because they can't find nine other players online at the same time to hold their hand through the game? You have the word, "entitles," in the wrong place. The content Blizzard provides me entitles them to my $15 a month. Once they quit providing me with content I can do on my schedule they are no longer entitled to my monthly $15 and I unsubscribe. That may sit well with you, but you're not the one trying to run a business. Blizzard is. When you make your own MMO you can make it as hard as you want and even ban me from it. I probably wouldn't want to play it anyway.

[Deleted]

No LFR player ever said that. Most say that they like LFR because they can play without a schedule. Hop in when they want and drop out if something comes up, even in the middle of a fight. Thats why many like it. And easy loot of course.

And you are right, it's not elitist to recruit good players but it is elitist to come to the forum and say "You know, only baddies play LFR. Us really good players, we play flex".

But Flex has a higher difficulty and a skill-based barrier to completion compared to LFR. The people doing Flex are objectively better. That's just the facts.

And half the people in this thread are saying "oh good, im glad they nerfed it so I can get my loot more easily". Because of all the bad players in LFR.

[Ronduwil]

In other words, half the raid not being afk is your definition of skill.

No, it's his definition of players making an honest effort to push through the content. That's pretty much what Blizzard requires for LFR to be completed. It was never meant to be in the same league for Normal/Heroic raids. It's not even intended to be in the same league as LFR.

[Deleted]

Think, McFly! Think! Who is going to continue to pay $15 for access to a game in which their character will no longer advance because they can't find nine other players online at the same time to hold their hand through the game? You have the word, "entitles," in the wrong place. The content Blizzard provides me entitles them to my $15 a month. Once they quit providing me with content I can do on my schedule they are no longer entitled to my monthly $15 and I unsubscribe. That may sit well with you, but you're not the one trying to run a business. Blizzard is. When you make your own MMO you can make it as hard as you want and even ban me from it. I probably wouldn't want to play it anyway.

If they want you to spend longer consuming their content, making it easier seems counterproductive.

[McNeil]

The only thing I would approve nerfing is the thrash before Garrosh. Apparently doing CC or single targeting is way too hard for DPS

[Ronduwil]

In my opinion, Make LFR, flex , Normal and heroic share lockout.

This would be hilarious. I personally wouldn't mind it but the tears of frustration and cries of anguish would be heard all around the World ... of Warcraft. Players would be afraid to run LFR or Flex because it would lock them out of a potential Normal and/or Heroic raid later. After a few weeks of growing frustrated at having to settle for LFR every Tuesday night they would eventually simply unsub. It doesn't take a genius to see where this would lead. Remember that the game exists to generate revenue for Blizzard, not to stroke your ego.

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I think the people who supposedly demand entrance to a group should go play something for younger kids.

I hate to break this to you, but a rated 'T' game is for younger kids.

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If they want you to spend longer consuming their content, making it easier seems counterproductive.

If the content is too difficult for its target audience to consume they will stop paying for the chance to consume it altogether. There's a line to walk here.

[Zantos]

Clearly not, otherwise they wouldn't have nerfed it.

Or the mechanics are too unforgiving given the average skill of the raid, hence why they're nerfing the mechanics.

Heroic is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by being too good at the game in the first place.
Normal is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by not being as skilled as the Heroic raiders.
Flex is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by not being as skilled as the Normal raiders.
LFR is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by not being as skilled as the Flex raiders.

The line of which raiders are "idiots and lazy" can be drawn anywhere.
.

You missed one key fact, that LFR is easy when the players are not to lazy and too stupid. There is a easy way to draw the line. LFR, if the tank is fifth in dps, the dps is slacking. Even more so if they are pulling wrath numbers still. That means they are to lazy to learn their class, or actually try. You tell them to stack at point A, they wont do it. You yell in all caps in /rw multiple times for them to get out of the over loaded zone on lei shen, they keep walking into it. That's stupid. It is very easy to spot lazy raiders in LFR. And the other modes are not made hard by the players themselfs. They are not actively going out of their way to ignore mechanics. So why you think that is even a thing, idk.

[Firebert]

Doing lots of dps/hps and not dying as much as the rest of the raid is a pretty good metric to start with.

Hence focus-firing Horridon (et al) and Invising/Feigning during a wipe should be rewarded.

[Deleted]

just ignore lfr... the tanks do it aswell

[Polarthief]

Tell that to the stressed out average and good players trying to gear up alts that sit for hours hitting 4 - 10 stacks on bosses because people can't seem to adapt to the mechanics.

Form a Flex group or find a competent one from OpenRaid then

I really don't see the problem with how terrible LFR is. I really hope it continues to turn into a puddle of mush that not even the worst players in the game want to play because then everyone will be doing Flex and have at LEAST half a brain, if not more. LFR rewards you for doing nothing, and that breeds toxicity.

I DO wish, however, that Normal was a bit more "flexible" in the sense that I could cross-realm with it. Having just quit committed progression raiding, I want to continue to do Normals without having to resort to pugging. I want to play with my friends who DON'T suck and be rewarded because we're capable of doing Normals, but we simply can't because no cross-realm is allowed for anything harder than Flex :\

[Tragg]

I really don't see the problem with how terrible LFR is. I really hope it continues to turn into a puddle of mush that not even the worst players in the game want to play because then everyone will be doing Flex and have at LEAST half a brain, if not more. LFR rewards you for doing nothing, and that breeds toxicity.

Most people have never cared about real raiding, most never will. LFR will continue to be nerfed into the ground, hardcores and wannabes will cry about it. No one else will care. There's your spoiler alert for the next couple years.

[Darmalus]

So how many people, exactly, would be torn up about LFR going away and Flex raids taking their place?

I imagine the LFR only crowd would be briefly sad, but move on and mostly forget about it before long.

The people who would be REALLY upset would be the people doing Flex, Normal and Heroic raids when the raiding budget crashes and they go from 46 high quality bosses in an expansion to 15 buggy recycled content bosses per expansion.

[Orcindauh]

Most people have never cared about real raiding, most never will. LFR will continue to be nerfed into the ground, hardcores and wannabes will cry about it. No one else will care. There's your spoiler alert for the next couple years.

#1 Wrong. Not that most people don't care for raiding. They claim they simply do not have the schedule and the commitment needed.
#2 Majority of hardcore players could care less if LFR gets nerfed to the ground or buffed to be undefeatable. Only wannabe LFR heroes claiming they want LFR to be a "challenge" and that Blizzard is not giving them enough hard casual content etc complain.

[purebalance]

Tell that to the stressed out average and good players trying to gear up alts that sit for hours hitting 4 - 10 stacks on bosses because people can't seem to adapt to the mechanics.

That's what the stacks were made for. I can see the stacks honestly because at least people were trying and failing rather than having a flat nerf after flat nerf like they are doing. You can pretty much attack Nazgrim in every def stance when no adds are up and still not even stress healers.

Also I haven't wiped more than 3 times on a LFR boss in SoO so there was no need for a nerf at all.

This is 100% what the OP said. It's a matter of Blizzard catering to bad players. Not casuals. Bad. Players.

[Firebert]

So how many people, exactly, would be torn up about LFR going away and Flex raids taking their place?

Me, simply because I go back to not seeing the raids because of ridiculous entry requirements that I can't get via LFR any more, and then the same applies to Normal.

[Ronduwil]

LFR rewards you for doing nothing, and that breeds toxicity.

By that standard, the entire game up to level 90 "rewards you for doing nothing," and yet people don't seem to be complete jerks when they first hit level 90. What breeds toxicity is players deluding themselves to the point where they believe that they're intrinsically better than others because they happen to have spent more time screwing around on the computer than most. At that point when the raid repeatedly wipes it's not their fault; it's the fault of all the "bads" who are holding them back. That's where toxicity begins. Reducing the number of wipes reduces the toxicity because you have fewer incentives to rage at all the "bad players" who held back your progress. Instead of constructively viewing the diverse skillsets as a challenge to overcome you only see a group of bad players who don't merit the precious time that you condescended to lavish on their LFR run. That's what breeds toxicity.

[Firebert]

If they want you to spend longer consuming their content, making it easier seems counterproductive.

They're trying to balance content longevity with player retention. The latter is causing the problem.

[Polarthief]

By that standard, the entire game up to level 90 "rewards you for doing nothing," and yet people don't seem to be complete jerks when they first hit level 90. What breeds toxicity is players deluding themselves to the point where they believe that they're intrinsically better than others because they happen to have spent more time screwing around on the computer than most. At that point when the raid repeatedly wipes it's not their fault; it's the fault of all the "bads" who are holding them back. That's where toxicity begins. Reducing the number of wipes reduces the toxicity because you have fewer incentives to rage at all the "bad players" who held back your progress. Instead of constructively viewing the diverse skillsets as a challenge to overcome you only see a group of bad players who don't merit the precious time that you condescended to lavish on their LFR run. That's what breeds toxicity.

If the only time you've seen toxic behavior is from wipes, then you're one of the lucky ones.

Back in T14, I was blamed for taunting the Amber Monstrosity off the tanks and was kicked shortly after. If you take a look at my signature (and more importantly, my class), you'll see why that is a mockery.


(For the record, the stomp happened and the other tank didn't taunt. Dunno why the MT couldn't just taunt back but whatever)